The UK response - Part II - read OP

Enzokk

Aegir wrote: »

It is, you are trying to make this a political issue, which it isn’t. It has **** all to do with what any government official has done, in fact if you read what community leaders and indeed, posters on this forum are saying, it is likely that a significant part of the south Asian community don’t even know who Dominic Cummings is, let alone know that he broke the rules.

So basically what you are saying is that the south Asian community were not observing the lockdown rules at all. Because, if I follow your thinking here, if they didn't know about Cummings breaking the rules which was news for a week non-stop, they would also have missed that there was a lockdown. It is debatable whether they even knew there was a Covid-19 crises in the UK. Sure, they may know about it because it has reached their previous homes, but seeing as they have no clue what is happening in the UK at all, it could be that they just weren't aware of anything happening outside of their own bubbles.

I stand by my comments, lockdown rules were impossible to observe once Cummings went to his parents home and faced no consequences. This meant people started going to the beaches in huge numbers on warm days. It meant they came together to protest and counter-protest. It meant they would come together to celebrate.

None of this is race or religion specific, but focusing on one community and blaming them when there has been a steady ignorance of the rules since that time is ridiculous.

I find it interesting that you think I am making it political. Its the same with the Russia report and Trump and the virus, if you make it political you are trying to force people to pick a side instead of just focusing on the issues. Very revealing. I didn't bring in politics, you have tried to though.

Donald Trump

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Pubs may close again in UK

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/uk-news/pubs-could-forced-close-again-18700159.amp

Pubs could be forced to close again so schools can reopen in September, say Covid experts

Ah, that's probably just because all the teachers have been on the piss since they got their extended holidays in March or whenever. It's the only way to get them back out of the pubs.

Enzokk

Major incident has been declared in Manchester,

Manchester Covid outbreak 'a warning to complacent white middle class'

The declaration of a major incident in Greater Manchester should jolt a “complacent white middle class” into realising that Covid-19 is not just spreading in ethnic minority households, one of the region’s health chiefs has said.

Eleanor Roaf, the director of public health in Trafford, said 80% of its infections in the last week were in the white community, and she urged the region’s 2.8 million residents to concentrate “much harder on what we can do to stop the wider spread”.

StevenToast

Is there a thread where we can "Brit-Bash"?

serfboard

StevenToast wrote: »

Is there a thread where we can "Brit-Bash"?

Yeah - I think it's next to the Muslim-bashing one ...

partyguinness

Enzokk wrote: »

Yeah, not falling for this rubbish. People were following the lockdown rules until Cummings openly flaunted them and refused to apologise. The PM refused to say that he made a mistake and this allowed people to openly ignore the rules as well. We have seen countless images of white people gathering in groups and on beaches and partying in Liverpool and Leeds showing that people in the UK are ignoring the advice.

But there are people more interested in looking to blame one group of people for the increase in cases. You yourself in this post say it, it is a "problem in the Muslim community" as if the groundwork for ignoring the rules hasn't been laid before.

There is a problem in the UK, where those in power gets away with flaunting the rules. This has led all of the rest to ignore the rules, regardless of the colour of their skin or their religion. This has not been helped by shoddy communication from the government where they have once again made it more confusing for people to follow or understand. The fact that there is what seems to be an attempt to shift the focus on one group of people isn't going to change what happened in March and April with Cummings.

The high rate among the Asian community is nothing to do with Cummings and that made no difference whatsoever because by and large the general public in the UK are really not that bothered. That is why Cummings is still in a job.

Nobody is trying to shift blame at all but rather acknowledging that there is a disproportionately high rate among the Asian communities. It is trying to deal with some facts and the reasons. As someone who works in a town with a high Asian population (and on a watch list due to high rates). There are several reasons:-

• Tend to work in public facing roles e.g. bus drivers, taxi drivers, corner shops
• Tend to work in low paid carer roles in nursing homes and hospitals
  Tend to live in built up urban areas

This is then made worse by:

• Transmission brought back to the house where there may be 5-10 living under the same roof who all work in similar jobs and it just snowballs
• Poor grasp of English (I have met people in the country up to 30 years who cannot string a sentence together in English)
• Poor health and diet- smoking and diabetes is rampant in the Asian community and a leading cause of death. I believe there is a genetic disposition toward diabetes
• Asians are not great in sport participation
• The cultural norm toward large family and religious celebrations in each others houses and centres

Yes they should not focus on specific groups. You can see (white) large groups gathering outside Anfield which is shocking etc but more Asians are dying and that needs to be looked at.

Enzokk

partyguinness wrote: »

The high rate among the Asian community is nothing to do with Cummings and that made no difference whatsoever because by and large the general public in the UK are really not that bothered. That is why Cummings is still in a job.

Nobody is trying to shift blame at all but rather acknowledging that there is a disproportionately high rate among the Asian communities. It is trying to deal with some facts and the reasons. As someone who works in a town with a high Asian population (and on a watch list due to high rates). There are several reasons:-

• Tend to work in public facing roles e.g. bus drivers, taxi drivers, corner shops
• Tend to work in low paid carer roles in nursing homes and hospitals
  Tend to live in built up urban areas

This is then made worse by:

• Transmission brought back to the house where there may be 5-10 living under the same roof who all work in similar jobs and it just snowballs
• Poor grasp of English (I have met people in the country up to 30 years who cannot string a sentence together in English)
• Poor health and diet- smoking and diabetes is rampant in the Asian community and a leading cause of death. I believe there is a genetic disposition toward diabetes
• Asians are not great in sport participation
• The cultural norm toward large family and religious celebrations in each others houses and centres

Yes they should not focus on specific groups. You can see (white) large groups gathering outside Anfield which is shocking etc but more Asians are dying and that needs to be looked at.

It was the Tory MP that focused on one specific group and when it was pointed out this wasn't appropriate there was an effort to focus on that specific group even more. Those that did it with anecdotal evidence needs to ask themselves why the need to do that.

As for the rest, well we will not be able to have a discussion about it because it is nuanced and nuanced discussions on an internet forum doesn't go well. I mean we should start at the racism problem the UK has before we get into your list and why those communities doesn't integrate as well into society, but I don't see that going well without someone starting to throw the "leftist liberal PC agenda" I have at me.

Harry Palmr

Aberdeen in lockdown - 54 cases. Population council area 227,560

from guardian

The Scottish first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, has said 54 cases have now been confirmed in the Aberdeen Covid-19 cluster, while 191 close contacts have been traced, though she expects that number to increase. Across Scotland, 64 new cases have been recorded; with 36 thought to be in Grampian.

Sturgeon says there may be some community transmission and, while the outbreak may be centred on one city centre bar, it is not the only source and many more are being looked at.

Sturgeon says that, as a result, restrictions will be reimposed in the Aberdeen city council area.

People are being told not to travel to Aberdeen if they are not already there. A five-mile travel rule has been put in place and residents are also being told not to enter each other’s houses. All indoor and outdoor hospitality has also been told to close by 5pm on Wednesday.

The closure will be backed by governmental regulations, the first minister says, and will be enforced if the rules are not followed.

Sturgeon adds that the changes will be reviewed next Wednesday, when she hoped that they could be removed if they could, either in entirety or in part. However, if necessary, Sturgeon has said they could be extended beyond that seven-day period.

partyguinness

Enzokk wrote: »

It was the Tory MP that focused on one specific group and when it was pointed out this wasn't appropriate there was an effort to focus on that specific group even more. Those that did it with anecdotal evidence needs to ask themselves why the need to do that.

As for the rest, well we will not be able to have a discussion about it because it is nuanced and nuanced discussions on an internet forum doesn't go well. I mean we should start at the racism problem the UK has before we get into your list and why those communities doesn't integrate as well into society, but I don't see that going well without someone starting to throw the "leftist liberal PC agenda" I have at me.

Here is a Government link: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-understanding-the-impact-on-bame-communities

Are you inferring that certain communities do not integrate due to racism? While there is racism everywhere it is not that neat a reason.

You are looking to much into it. 'They' stick to their own. They have all the support within their own community and do not feel the need to integrate. I would actually go so far as to say that they keep it 'tight knit' among themselves.

Rather than turning the spotlight on the rest of society it may well surprise you that certian communities actively chose to 'stick to their own'. Language, culture, ethnic background, religion and economic factors. Arranged marriages within the community is still the #1 way children are married off'..a dowery is still paid. Either locally within the community a bride/husband is brought in from Asia. Mixed marriages are extremely rare and positively discouraged. In fact a man or woman risks being disowned by the family at large if the partner of choice is not taken. A lot of pressure put to bear.

"Here is the wife/husband we have chosen for you."

The silent threat is "If you don't go ahead we will cut of the money tap. We will make your like hell. You will not get the mortgage free house that we have set up for you. Oh and of course we also expect to move it with you."

I would remind you this is not the 1880s but the UK in 2020.

Enzokk

partyguinness wrote: »

Here is a Government link: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-understanding-the-impact-on-bame-communities

Are you inferring that certain communities do not integrate due to racism? While there is racism everywhere it is not that neat a reason.

You are looking to much into it. 'They' stick to their own. They have all the support within their own community and do not feel the need to integrate. I would actually go so far as to say that they keep it 'tight knit' among themselves.

Rather than turning the spotlight on the rest of society it may well surprise you that certian communities actively chose to 'stick to their own'. Language, culture, ethnic background, religion and economic factors. Arranged marriages within the community is still the #1 way children are married off'..a dowery is still paid. Either locally within the community a bride/husband is brought in from Asia. Mixed marriages are extremely rare and positively discouraged. In fact a man or woman risks being disowned by the family at large if the partner of choice is not taken. A lot of pressure put to bear.

"Here is the wife/husband we have chosen for you."

The silent threat is "If you don't go ahead we will cut of the money tap. We will make your like hell. You will not get the mortgage free house that we have set up for you. Oh and of course we also expect to move it with you."

I would remind you this is not the 1880s but the UK in 2020.

I am not sure what you are trying to post. What does your hypothetical situation have to do with what we are discussing? As for the report,

Historical racism may be behind England's higher BAME Covid-19 rate

A delayed report into the reasons why black, Asian and minority ethnic people (BAME) are disproportionately contracting and dying from Covid-19 has increased pressure on the government to act immediately to address the problem.

The Public Health England (PHE) review, based on stakeholder engagement with more than 4,000 people, says historical racism may make BAME individuals less likely to seek care when needed or, as NHS staff, to speak up when they have concerns about personal protective equipment (PPE) or increased risk.

As for the UK response, the more things change the more they stay the same,

https://twitter.com/FullFact/status/1291018624539471879?s=20

As for Test and Trace, seems like some people are being paid for not doing much right now,

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1290961849106804736?s=20

Two calls since May? Another message from someone who said they have made 4 calls in that time. Another minister mixing up people being tested versus capacity. It cannot be mistakes any longer and it has to be deliberate. They are gaslighting people in fabricating a version of their response when it is just not born out in reality.

lainey_d_123

Not surprised to see cases steadily rising again. While most people seem to be making at least some effort, it's undermined by all the utter knobs who think the rules don't apply to them. Every single time I've left the house since masks in shops were made mandatory, there has been at least one idiot striding in without one, usually with that knobby, belligerent 'what you looking at?' attitude to match. What is it with the British?!

A Dub in Glasgo

https://twitter.com/billykenber/status/1291118308922720259

Ministers have wasted at least £150 million buying masks with the wrong kind of straps from a little-known family investment firm, The Times can reveal.

Health officials signed a £252 million contract to buy masks for frontline healthcare staff from Ayanda Capital in April in a deal brokered by a government adviser who also advises the company’s board.

The contract included 50 million high-strength “FFP2” medical masks costing an estimated £150 million to £180 million and amounting to the entire health system’s expected consumption for a year, as well as 150 million cheaper “IIR” masks.

Officials have admitted that the 43.5 million Chinese-made FFP2 masks delivered so far did not meet current standards and could not be used in the NHS, legal documents reveal. The masks have elastic ear loops instead of straps that tie around the back of the head, leading to concerns that they cannot be fixed securely.

London-based Ayanda Capital specialises in “currency trading, offshore property, private equity and trade financing” and has no history of PPE procurement or government contracts. The deal was brokered by an adviser to its board, Andrew Mills, who is also an adviser to Liz Truss and the Department for International Trade.

Ayanda is run by Tim Horlick, a former investment banker. The firm is owned by the Horlick family via a holding company registered in a tax haven.

The investment firm blamed the government for the problems with the masks, saying that the company had only ever suggested supplying masks with ear loops and insisting that this had been approved by government officials before the contract was signed.

Mr Horlick said that at a “late stage in our contract” the government had asked to switch the small number of FFP2 masks not then delivered “to headbands from early loop design [and] we are working with [the Department of Health and Social Care] to try to assist them with this matter”.

The government’s admission that tens of millions of masks were unusable came in response to a legal case brought by the Good Law Project, which is seeking a judicial review of the process by which three PPE contracts were awarded at the height of the pandemic.

Officials have not disclosed the exact price paid for the FFP2 masks but said that IIR masks were selling for 59p to 64p at the time of the contract and Ayanda offered an “extremely competitive price”. If the government had paid 64p for the cheaper IIR masks, that would have amounted £96 million of the £252 million contract, with the remainder paying for FFP2 masks.

Jolyon Maugham, QC, who set up the Good Law Project, said that he was “staggered” by the “extraordinary waste [and] basic incompetence”.

Sir Ed Davey, acting leader of the Liberal Democrats, said: “The government management of PPE in the early months of the crisis was an almost unmitigated disaster.”

The deal with Ayanda is the largest individual PPE contract disclosed by the government and came amid purchases of £5.5 billion.

Although officials cited the urgency of the pandemic as the reason for not requiring normal tendering processes, PPE delivered under several large contracts is yet to be deployed to the NHS, legal documents show.

The other masks supplied by Ayanda are still awaiting further testing, while isolation suits delivered under a £32 million contract with a family-run pest control supplies company called Pestfix are also awaiting testing. So, too, are gowns procured from Clandeboye Agencies, a confectionery wholesaler based in Northern Ireland, which was given a £108 million contract.

A spokesman for the Department of Health and Social Care said that they were unable to comment because of ongoing legal proceedings.

Harry Palmr

Tory party of rotten boroughs.

Enzokk

Enzokk wrote: »

I am not sure what you are trying to post. What does your hypothetical situation have to do with what we are discussing? As for the report,

He is trying to explain something to you, that you seem completely unable to grasp, or are unwilling to because it doesn’t involve blaming Dominic Cummings.

lainey_d_123

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Not surprised to see cases steadily rising again. While most people seem to be making at least some effort, it's undermined by all the utter knobs who think the rules don't apply to them. Every single time I've left the house since masks in shops were made mandatory, there has been at least one idiot striding in without one, usually with that knobby, belligerent 'what you looking at?' attitude to match. What is it with the British?!

Have you considered that it isn’t the British that have a problem, but you?

BonnieSituation

Aegir wrote: »

Have you considered that it isn’t the British that have a problem, but you?

What an utterly exceptional British response.

lainey_d_123

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Not surprised to see cases steadily rising again. While most people seem to be making at least some effort, it's undermined by all the utter knobs who think the rules don't apply to them. Every single time I've left the house since masks in shops were made mandatory, there has been at least one idiot striding in without one, usually with that knobby, belligerent 'what you looking at?' attitude to match. What is it with the British?!

Before you give out about the British, wait and see what it’s like in Ireland next week. I suspect it will be worse. No one wears them at all in my local shop right now. Literally zero people. And I got laughed at for wearing one this afternoon. Not a chance that there is a good level of mask wearing here in stores next week, law or not

BonnieSituation

Deleted User wrote: »

Before you give out about the British, wait and see what it’s like in Ireland next week. I suspect it will be worse. No one wears them at all in my local shop right now. Literally zero people. And I got laughed at for wearing one this afternoon. Not a chance that there is a good level of mask wearing here in stores next week, law or not

And yet my local shop in Dublin 8 today had all bar the staff wearing masks when I was in there twice, not to mention the various supermarkets I was in the last week from Dublin to Leitrim to Sligo had a huge cohort of mask wearers. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the non-wearers within stores are majorly outnumbered. So much so I barely saw any that I recall with any clarity/certainty.

No way anyone is "laughing" at mask-wearers at this point.

Enzokk

Aegir wrote: »

He is trying to explain something to you, that you seem completely unable to grasp, or are unwilling to because it doesn’t involve blaming Dominic Cummings.

What does arranged marriages have to do with what we were discussing? You can point the finger at me for bashing the Tories (wait until you see my reply below, it is a doozy) but bringing in things like arranged marriages is at best as relevant to the lockdown discussion as Cummings starting this all off and at worst gaslighting of the community from posters.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

https://twitter.com/billykenber/status/1291118308922720259

Seems like a company worth £100 almost received this contract as well. The person seemingly connected is both on the Board of Advisers for the DIT and Ayanda Capital as well. I guess they thought giving his company that £252m contract would be taking the piss, so they gave it to the company he advises as well.

PPE masks not fit for purpose

We have also unearthed another absolutely remarkable feature of the £252 million Ayanda contract. Matt Hancock’s lawyers have now admitted they planned to enter into that contract with a £100 company wholly owned by Liz Truss’ adviser Andrew Mills and his wife. Mr Mills asked – and Government agreed – to enter into it with Ayanda instead because the £100 company (Prospermill Limited) didn’t have “international payment infrastructure.” Just how much has this arrangement prospered Mills?

Thread Reader

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1291244082145177600?s=20

partyguinness

Enzokk wrote: »

I am not sure what you are trying to post. What does your hypothetical situation have to do with what we are discussing? As for the report,

Historical racism may be behind England's higher BAME Covid-19 rate

What hypothetical situation would that be now?


I appreciate that 'racism' is the default option of choice for some people who do not know any better. Far easier to chuck that out as a general reason rather than scratching the surface and looking at individual choices and cultural norms.

lainey_d_123

Aegir wrote: »

Have you considered that it isn’t the British that have a problem, but you?

How do *I* have the problem?

I'm following the guidelines, wearing a mask in all enclosed spaces and generally being considerate and thinking of others, just like the Spanish, Italians etc. are managing to do with minimal fuss and hassle.

There is a significant minority of people here who are belligerent spoiled children who refuse to 'be told what to do' and are putting others in danger.

But do explain why you think I have the issue, when all I'm doing is trying to keep myself and others safe and wishing that everyone would just respect the goddamn rules, which are there for a reason.

lainey_d_123

Deleted User wrote: »

Before you give out about the British, wait and see what it’s like in Ireland next week. I suspect it will be worse. No one wears them at all in my local shop right now. Literally zero people. And I got laughed at for wearing one this afternoon. Not a chance that there is a good level of mask wearing here in stores next week, law or not

Whereabouts in Ireland are you? My friends and family over there have reported that mask wearing and adherence to guidelines are generally very good. And let's remember that there have been far, far fewer cases over there than England.

I live in a borough where pretty much everyone knows someone who has died of covid (even if distantly) and still people walk into shops without a mask on. It's not because they genuinely can't wear one for medical reasons, it's total belligerence and childishness at being told what to do. You can see the look on their faces, as if just waiting for someone to challenge them so they can start a fight. It's like some people actually enjoy flouting the rules and mocking those who are taking them seriously.

And of course, it's never those people who end up dying or getting seriously ill. No, they're probably all asymptomatic, boasting about how they never got sick and coronavirus is all a hoax, while passing it onto vulnerable people. There seem to be a lot of people here who don't understand that it isn't about personal risk. It's about everyone as a whole. Nobody can possibly know for sure they don't have the virus, so the best course of action is to act as if you have it, and don't want anyone else to get it. How is that so hard?!

BonnieSituation

BonnieSituation wrote: »

And yet my local shop in Dublin 8 today had all bar the staff wearing masks when I was in there twice, not to mention the various supermarkets I was in the last week from Dublin to Leitrim to Sligo had a huge cohort of mask wearers. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the non-wearers within stores are majorly outnumbered. So much so I barely saw any that I recall with any clarity/certainty.

No way anyone is "laughing" at mask-wearers at this point.

Maybe not in large supermarkets. But in your local Eurospar? Or the Yard, in Dublin 8 has zero mask wearing. I have a very different experience to you. And in IKEA it’s much less than 50%

In contrast my local store in London has been almost fully mask wearing for a good while. This isn’t about masks.....my only point is that in my experience between London and Dublin, the British are not behaving any worse than the Irish, and the Brit bashing here gets pretty old IMO

robinph

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

How do *I* have the problem?

I'm following the guidelines, wearing a mask in all enclosed spaces and generally being considerate and thinking of others, just like the Spanish, Italians etc. are managing to do with minimal fuss and hassle.

There is a significant minority of people here who are belligerent spoiled children who refuse to 'be told what to do' and are putting others in danger.

But do explain why you think I have the issue, when all I'm doing is trying to keep myself and others safe and wishing that everyone would just respect the goddamn rules, which are there for a reason.

Do you have much experience of life in Spain and Italy etc over the last 6 months to be able to tell what exactly is going on there?

From reading these pages regarding Ireland, and your posts re London and my experience in other parts of the UK and speaking directly with friends and family in other parts of UK/Europe / the world its all fairly similar response to the various regulations that have been brought in at different places. You do seem to attract, or notice, far more issues than others do though, but not sure that London or the UK population is really the outlier that you are claiming.

Some people complain, most people comply.

partyguinness

Enzokk wrote: »

What does arranged marriages have to do with what we were discussing? You can point the finger at me for bashing the Tories (wait until you see my reply below, it is a doozy) but bringing in things like arranged marriages is at best as relevant to the lockdown discussion as Cummings starting this all off and at worst gaslighting of the community from posters.

It has already been put forward in this thread that the high instances in C19 is partly due to racism and lack of integration i.e. that the rest of society (clear inference being the 'white' majority) is racist against BAME and this keeps BAME groups from integrating.

The picture I am painting for you is that is not the case at all and BAME groups will proactively 'stick together' for various reasons to the exclusion of other ethnic groups. Arranged marriages are just one obvious example of how this cycle is perpetuated by BAME.

When you have a closed community with its own language, culture, religion and lack of ‘outside’ integration it becomes difficult to get messages across.

For example, the local Bengali community with poor spoken English and poor literacy levels are not going to be sitting around in Costa reading The Guardian and getting indignant about Dominic Cummings. Getting food on the table is only priority. You simple will not understand this in sitting over in Ireland.

The issue of racism and historical racism is an entirely separate debate.

lainey_d_123

robinph wrote: »

Do you have much experience of life in Spain and Italy etc over the last 6 months to be able to tell what exactly is going on there?

From reading these pages regarding Ireland, and your posts re London and my experience in other parts of the UK and speaking directly with friends and family in other parts of UK/Europe / the world its all fairly similar response to the various regulations that have been brought in at different places. You do seem to attract, or notice, far more issues than others do though, but not sure that London or the UK population is really the outlier that you are claiming.

Some people complain, most people comply.

I have extremely close friends in those countries (which I previously lived in) and they have all said that adherence is almost 100% by the locals. Most people in Barcelona are wearing masks even walking down the street. One friend moved back here a couple of weeks ago and was so horrified by how lax everything is that she's gone straight back to Spain.

Here, masks are mandatory on public transport and yet at least 50% of people just don't wear one, and nobody stops them. This is NOT the case in most other countries.

You are always going to get idiots everywhere, but there seems to be quite a high proportion of people here who just refuse to modify their lives in any way and insist on living as if there's not a global pandemic. I don't know is it some kind of coping mechanism or what, total denial, total refusal to acknowledge reality, but it's putting people at risk.

robinph

But you are using a sample size of one (you) and using that to claim that the whole of the UK is not complying.

Just within my city the compliance to various measures is totally different in different areas that I frequent and that has been the same for the whole duration. Even on my local high street the compliance is different from one end to the other, even the time of day that you are out and about can make a difference. Maybe your friends elsewhere are just lucky that they live in a nice area that has high compliance with whatever the local rules are but the place you are hanging out don't follow the rules. It is most definitely not the case that the UK is not mostly doing as they are told though.

The only consistent thing we can take from your posts is that you don't like the area that you live in because they happen to not do what you think they should. Don't apply that view on the rest of the country though.

theological

Correct, it's important to balance out some hysteria with some facts. The situation with the virus is actually better than what it was last week according to the KCL data. The latest suggests that the UK R is down to 0.9 and that there are now 1626 daily cases.

There is an element of whack-a-mole going on with targetting responses, but this is going to be the norm for many months.

It is a bit frustrating that the rate of infection has remained so flat, eventually I think changing to an elimination strategy may be required.

The real test for the response to this will be in the autumn when people cannot spend so much time outdoors.

lainey_d_123

robinph wrote: »

But you are using a sample size of one (you) and using that to claim that the whole of the UK is not complying.

Just within my city the compliance to various measures is totally different in different areas that I frequent and that has been the same for the whole duration. Even on my local high street the compliance is different from one end to the other, even the time of day that you are out and about can make a difference. Maybe your friends elsewhere are just lucky that they live in a nice area that has high compliance with whatever the local rules are but the place you are hanging out don't follow the rules. It is most definitely not the case that the UK is not mostly doing as they are told though.

The only consistent thing we can take from your posts is that you don't like the area that you live in because they happen to not do what you think they should. Don't apply that view on the rest of the country though.

But you're making my own point here.

There should NOT be this much inconsistency. That's the entire problem. You have no idea whether you're going to walk into a shop and find people all in masks, respecting social distancing and being considerate, or walk in and find nobody wearing one and all cramming together. The not knowing is actually the worst part. How can people feel safe to venture out and spend money and help the economy get going when you never know what the situation is going to be? How can you possibly make an informed decision?

There's no ifs or buts here. There should simply not be this much inconsistency. People should be wearing masks in shops and on transport, full stop. That is the law. And this attitude that 'well most people are doing it' or 'people aren't behaving the way you want them to' is part of the problem. Everyone should be complying. People in Spain wouldn't dare take the p1ss because the police would be straight onto them and everyone around them would be disgusted by their selfishness, and tell them so. Here, people are literally just doing whatever the fck they want with no consequences. Yes, most people are complying because they're decent and don't need to be babysat, but what about the significant number of morons? Other countries have police to deal with the non-compliers, we don't.

It's not even that hard to follow the rules. I've just enjoyed a few days off work, wandering around, sitting in parks, getting nice takeout lunches and coffees and spending time with friends outdoors and actually really enjoying myself in the lovely weather. Having to wear a mask to pop into a shop is such a minor inconvenience when you compare the freedom we have now to a few months ago in peak lockdown and yet people are determined to spoil things for everyone just so they don't have to wear a mask or do what they're asked to do.

When there's a pandemic, there should not be any flimsy notion of 'doing what you think is right'. Want to go into a shop or use a train? You wear a mask, or you're fined, and asked to leave. It is actually that simple.

robinph

robinph wrote: »

Do you have much experience of life in Spain and Italy etc over the last 6 months to be able to tell what exactly is going on there?

From reading these pages regarding Ireland, and your posts re London and my experience in other parts of the UK and speaking directly with friends and family in other parts of UK/Europe / the world its all fairly similar response to the various regulations that have been brought in at different places. You do seem to attract, or notice, far more issues than others do though, but not sure that London or the UK population is really the outlier that you are claiming.

Some people complain, most people comply.

I have just returned from Italy and social distancing in some towns was uncomfortably non existent. In shops it varied, Lidl for example was very strict but local shops mask wearing was around 50%.

An Italian lady had a complete break down at a guy on our flight for not keeping his mask on as well, actually it wasn’t that he wasn’t wearing a mask, it was the arrogant attitude from him when she asked him to put it on. He soon learnt not to mess with an Italian Nonna though.

S.M.B.

theological wrote: »

Correct, it's important to balance out some hysteria with some facts. The situation with the virus is actually better than what it was last week according to the KCL data. The latest suggests that the UK R is down to 0.9 and that there are now 1626 daily cases.

There is an element of whack-a-mole going on with targetting responses, but this is going to be the norm for many months.

It is a bit frustrating that the rate of infection has remained so flat, eventually I think changing to an elimination strategy may be required.

The real test for the response to this will be in the autumn when people cannot spend so much time outdoors.

The time to change to elimination strategy is now, or better, it should not have been discarded ~5 months ago.

There is a real risk in entering Autumn/Winter and looking back at this period with regret for not following global consensus. Just like there is the hint of regret in some places of decisions made earlier in the year.

Dave0301

For what it is worth, the use of face masks has been pretty good from what I have seen in my areain the UK.

It is good to see the usual posters leap to the defence of the British public regarding this issue, but they have nothing to add about the headline PPE news this morning?

50 million unusable masks which form part of a £252 contact awarded to a company in questionable circumstances, along with other PPE contracts.

robinph

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

But you're making my own point here.

Not really.

You claim was that Spain and Italy are 100% compliant whilst the UK is 100% non-compliant whenever you are out and about.

My point is merely that your experience of the UK is very limited and quite clearly wrong as there are places where people comply and place where people don't comply, just like in Ireland as we can tell quite easily from posts on this site. Without frequenting boards.sp or boards.it we can't know what is actually going on in Spain and Italy, but if your sticking by your claim that the UK is totally non-compliant then I'd be inclined to doubt your claim that Spain and Italy are 100% compliant as well.

The UK could do better, but I don't believe for a second that Spain and Italy are doing things perfectly. Just that your friends are living in compliant bubbles where you live in a non-compliant one.

Dave0301

Dave0301 wrote: »

For what it is worth, the use of face masks has been pretty good from what I have seen in my areain the UK.

It is good to see the usual posters leap to the defence of the British public regarding this issue, but they have nothing to add about the headline PPE news this morning?

50 million unusable masks which form part of a £252 contact awarded to a company in questionable circumstances, along with other PPE contracts.

it would be interesting to see the numbers behind the headlines. On the face of it, this sounds like a seriously dodgy piece of business, but if it was part of a scattergun approach where they spent money with a huge amount of suppliers, purchasing ten times more than they needed, on the basis that fifty percent may be junk then it kind of makes sense.

The media are focused on about £500m of a £5.5bn spend on PPE, but I guess the headlines about £5bn of public money being spent with well known reputable companies, purchasing high quality goods that arrived on time isn't very interesting in today's age of shock and outrage.

partyguinness

The lockdown rules in the UK had so many exemptions that I was able to carry on with my daily life as normal. I went to my office workplace every day and as I do a lot of running well then that also qualified as my daily exercise.

Unlike the feedback from Ireland there really was no enforcement of the rules over here at all and certainly not in my area. The local parks became a joke with so many people out walking- I mean parks were thronged with families, groups of teenagers out drinking.

I never saw the police over here and yet friends of mine and family back in Ireland were regularly stopped by the Guards. Now most people here are wearing a masks in shops- no idea about public transport as I don't use it.

The English have acted more like the Irish in the disregarding of the rules. In fact the owner of my gym told me not to wear a mask (well I had no intention of it anyway).

The fact is the Tory government really have no appetite for a lockdown or such rules and that filtered through the entire population. They simply do not want it and it was half arsed.

BonnieSituation

Aegir wrote: »

it would be interesting to see the numbers behind the headlines. On the face of it, this sounds like a seriously dodgy piece of business, but if it was part of a scattergun approach where they spent money with a huge amount of suppliers, purchasing ten times more than they needed, on the basis that fifty percent may be junk then it kind of makes sense.

The media are focused on about £500m of a £5.5bn spend on PPE, but I guess the headlines about £5bn of public money being spent with well known reputable companies, purchasing high quality goods that arrived on time isn't very interesting in today's age of shock and outrage.

I'm sure you're capable of throwing the links in here.

Let's see this great work.

BonnieSituation

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe not in large supermarkets. But in your local Eurospar? Or the Yard, in Dublin 8 has zero mask wearing. I have a very different experience to you. And in IKEA it’s much less than 50%

In contrast my local store in London has been almost fully mask wearing for a good while. This isn’t about masks.....my only point is that in my experience between London and Dublin, the British are not behaving any worse than the Irish, and the Brit bashing here gets pretty old IMO

Creepy post is creepy.

Yes, in the Yard yesterday there was a high adherence level outside of the staff. Now, it's about 3 weeks since I was last there but I was there twice yesterday, but I figured, as I have noticed in other shops that mask use has ramped up so I would not be concerned about how things were a month ago.

The Spar in Kilmainham also has had a large adherence as well. The non-wearers are definitely the minor exception.

CelticRambler

Aegir wrote: »

if it was part of a scattergun approach where they spent money with a huge amount of suppliers, purchasing ten times more than they needed, on the basis that fifty percent may be junk then it kind of makes sense.

What economic model recommends that public procurement contracts should expect and/or cater for 50% of an order being junk?

It's one thing for a government to invest n billion £$€ in an option-to-purchase regarding a potential vaccine (the money is not entirely wasted if people are kept in employment and/or transferable skills and expertise are built up); but it's pure incompetence to buy physical goods for use in a critical environment, expecting half of them to be unfit for purpose.

BonnieSituation

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I'm sure you're capable of throwing the links in here.

Let's see this great work.

the fact that this was part of a £5.5bn procurement package is stated in all the links above

CelticRambler

CelticRambler wrote: »

What economic model recommends that public procurement contracts should expect and/or cater for 50% of an order being junk?.

what economic model is there for a global pandemic?

CelticRambler

Aegir wrote: »

what economic model is there for a global pandemic?

Any one of the "war games" run by various governments and think-tanks working on the basis of this very scenario. All of them highlighted the need to have appropriate stocks of critical materials and equipment; none of them suggested that it would be prudent to pour millions, or billions, into material of which 50% was unusable.

BonnieSituation

Aegir wrote: »

the fact that this was part of a £5.5bn procurement package is stated in all the links above

Shouldn't be hard to be specific if you want to engage and not obfuscate.

CelticRambler

CelticRambler wrote: »

Any one of the "war games" run by various governments and think-tanks working on the basis of this very scenario. All of them highlighted the need to have appropriate stocks of critical materials and equipment; none of them suggested that it would be prudent to pour millions, or billions, into material of which 50% was unusable.

When these contracts were awarded, there was a massive problem all over Europe with sub standard PPE, I believe the French healthcare workers were some of the first to highlight this.

Going by one delivery to the HSE where 20% was unusable and 15% not suitable for the intended purpose, it made sense to over order, did it not?

BonnieSituation

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Shouldn't be hard to be specific if you want to engage and not obfuscate.

I don’t want to engage with you actually. The details are all there. If you would care to read the thread and engage on a sensible level then feel free.

theological

Just received the letter for the ONS survey to take a sample. Will be interesting to find out what's involved.

BonnieSituation

Aegir wrote: »

I don’t want to engage with you actually. The details are all there. If you would care to read the thread and engage on a sensible level then feel free.

Oh my.

You're really bristling today. You can always tell when you're stuck in a corner.

A Dub in Glasgo

Aegir wrote: »

it would be interesting to see the numbers behind the headlines. On the face of it, this sounds like a seriously dodgy piece of business, but if it was part of a scattergun approach where they spent money with a huge amount of suppliers, purchasing ten times more than they needed, on the basis that fifty percent may be junk then it kind of makes sense.

The media are focused on about £500m of a £5.5bn spend on PPE, but I guess the headlines about £5bn of public money being spent with well known reputable companies, purchasing high quality goods that arrived on time isn't very interesting in today's age of shock and outrage.

https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1291300183796584449

CelticRambler

Aegir wrote: »

When these contracts were awarded, there was a massive problem all over Europe with sub standard PPE, I believe the French healthcare workers were some of the first to highlight this.

Going by one delivery to the HSE where 20% was unusable and 15% not suitable for the intended purpose, it made sense to over order, did it not?

If you're talking about making sense, then it would have made sense to read the pandemic response report and implement it's recommendations. Instead, the UK government (like that in the US) shelved the report and actively made things worse, leaving themselves in a position where they were vulnerable to scams.

Also, from what I've heard here in France, any product that wasn't fit for purpose wasn't paid for. Such a mentality does not seem to exist in the UK any more.

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1291300183796584449

That sort of childishness pretty much sums up 90% of the posts on this thread.

CelticRambler

CelticRambler wrote: »

If you're talking about making sense, then it would have made sense to read the pandemic response report and implement it's recommendations. Instead, the UK government (like that in the US) shelved the report and actively made things worse, leaving themselves in a position where they were vulnerable to scams.

Also, from what I've heard here in France, any product that wasn't fit for purpose wasn't paid for. Such a mentality does not seem to exist in the UK any more.

Without wishing to sound like Bonnie, is there anything to support this?