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Handicap Question

  • 12-07-2020 8:26pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭ JoeCole26


    Hi all,

    I recently joined a new golf club having previously just played social golf during the summers. I completed my 3 cards for my handicap and submitted them. My scores are below. (94, 91 and 84) From doing the count back myself and the fact the cards were from white tees and bunkers weren’t fully in play (could place within 6inches) I was expecting a handicap of around 14. Two weeks later I was notified I was given a handicap of 10. Just wondering what other people’s thoughts are on this - if it makes sense/fair then that’s absolutely fine, but just disheartening going out there every week not even being able to break 30points and potentially taking 2/3 years to get back to where I probably should be. I played twice this weekend and had 30/29points off 10.

    My three cards were :

    94 Gross -
    2 birdies
    3 pars
    7 bogeys
    1 double
    5 treble

    91 Gross -
    1 birdie
    6 pars
    6 bogeys
    3 doubles
    2 triples

    84 Gross -
    2 birdies
    5 pars
    9 bogeys
    1 double
    1 triple

    Thanks in advance.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭ Golfgraffix


    JoeCole26 wrote: »
    Hi all,

    I recently joined a new golf club having previously just played social golf during the summers. I completed my 3 cards for my handicap and submitted them. My scores are below. (94, 91 and 84) From doing the count back myself and the fact the cards were from white tees and bunkers weren’t fully in play (could place within 6inches) I was expecting a handicap of around 14. Two weeks later I was notified I was given a handicap of 10. Just wondering what other people’s thoughts are on this - if it makes sense/fair then that’s absolutely fine, but just disheartening going out there every week not even being able to break 30points and potentially taking 2/3 years to get back to where I probably should be. I played twice this weekend and had 30/29points off 10.

    My three cards were :

    94 Gross -
    2 birdies
    3 pars
    7 bogeys
    1 double
    5 treble

    91 Gross -
    1 birdie
    6 pars
    6 bogeys
    3 doubles
    2 triples

    84 Gross -
    2 birdies
    5 pars
    9 bogeys
    1 double
    1 triple

    Thanks in advance.

    The only card that counts is the 84, if your course is a par 72 then 10 is correct, I would have given you 8

    Btw the triple only counts as a double

    J


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭ gypsy79


    The only card that counts is the 84, if your course is a par 72 then 10 is correct, I would have given you 8

    Btw the triple only counts as a double

    J

    100% correct factually

    The new handicap system cant come soon enough

    We had a 61 net from guy in first round. Andunder current system he will be cut max 3.6 instead of 9/10 under new system


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    The only card that counts is the 84, if your course is a par 72 then 10 is correct, I would have given you 8

    Btw the triple only counts as a double

    J
    Under the new handicapping rules from Jan 2019, the max is now double par. Not that it really matters now when the WHS is coming in shortly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 296 ✭✭ Golf is my Game


    11 might have been more correct. What your par ?
    Your handicap sec should be checking your first few cards and if all are below 30 points then probably give you a stroke back.
    If you had a 12 over in 3 cards then the chances are very good that you can do better than that given that normall youl only shoot your best score about one in 20 times.
    So 10 or 11 is correct. From that you should over 10+ rounds average your scores at about 33 points so see how the next few go. If still in the 20s then nudge your sec that he should probably make you 11 although you might get up to that by then if they havent done anything anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 296 ✭✭ Golf is my Game


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Under the new handicapping rules from Jan 2019, the max is now double par. Not that it really matters now when the WHS is coming in shortly.

    Yes, triples count now. Maybe the sec got it wrong and so thats why they gave 10 instead of 11. Ask them do they no that rule. If they say the change the triple to a double then tell them they got the rule wrong and so theyl change you to 11.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭ finglashoop


    gypsy79 wrote: »
    100% correct factually

    The new handicap system cant come soon enough

    We had a 61 net from guy in first round. Andunder current system he will be cut max 3.6 instead of 9/10 under new system

    61 net of what handicap?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 296 ✭✭ Golf is my Game


    gypsy79 wrote: »
    100% correct factually

    The new handicap system cant come soon enough

    We had a 61 net from guy in first round. Andunder current system he will be cut max 3.6 instead of 9/10 under new system

    If that was his first competition after they gave him the handicap you mean and they only cut him 3.6 then the handicap lads are asleep at the wheel. Therre supposed to cut him almost but not quite as much as if that were one of his 3 cards. So cut him like nine or whatever yes. As a initial allocation correction. Gongu book is clear on that and you see it done if they know what their doing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭ gypsy79


    If that was his first competition after they gave him the handicap you mean and they only cut him 3.6 then the handicap lads are asleep at the wheel. Therre supposed to cut him almost but not quite as much as if that were one of his 3 cards. So cut him like nine or whatever yes. As a initial allocation correction. Gongu book is clear on that and you see it done if they know what their doing.

    Results are not in yet! I will report back. It was a medal.

    Personally I domt think anyone should be eligible for a medal for 12 months


  • Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭ JoeCole26


    Yes, triples count now. Maybe the sec got it wrong and so thats why they gave 10 instead of 11. Ask them do they no that rule. If they say the change the triple to a double then tell them they got the rule wrong and so theyl change you to 11.

    Thanks for reply. Is there anywhere online I can refer them to for this rule. Thanks


  • Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭ JoeCole26


    11 might have been more correct. What your par ?
    Your handicap sec should be checking your first few cards and if all are below 30 points then probably give you a stroke back.
    If you had a 12 over in 3 cards then the chances are very good that you can do better than that given that normall youl only shoot your best score about one in 20 times.
    So 10 or 11 is correct. From that you should over 10+ rounds average your scores at about 33 points so see how the next few go. If still in the 20s then nudge your sec that he should probably make you 11 although you might get up to that by then if they havent done anything anyway.

    The par is 72 at my club.Yeah, I’ll see how the next few rounds go and if I’m still struggling I’ll maybe reach out to them.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 296 ✭✭ Golf is my Game


    JoeCole26 wrote: »
    Thanks for reply. Is there anywhere online I can refer them to for this rule. Thanks

    https://www.congu.co.uk/manual/

    If you click manual online its in the section on handicap allocation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 296 ✭✭ Golf is my Game


    gypsy79 wrote: »
    Results are not in yet! I will report back. It was a medal.

    Personally I domt think anyone should be eligible for a medal for 12 months

    Wouldnt agree with that as that means you dont think the handicap is correct so then they shouldnt be playing at all really. If the handicap are doing their job right then they should be giving the right handicap to start and bringing people into line sharpish if their mopping up. The problem is usually with the handicap people who dont check on past playing, past handicaps etc because you have to make calls and do a bit of enquiriing. Ive done it and it is a pain in the hole but when a member tells you its his mate is joining and he 'about a x' and wants you to give him that they dont have a clue what their talking about. Then you have people wanting to get members up and running quickly to get them playing and paying into comps and dont want to bother with 3 cards or push to have them on such and such a handicap so they elegible for a team and stuff. That all goes on. Then ones that dont even know the calculation for new handicaps or do stupid stuff like averaging the three cards or giving them a handicap because some one said they played with them last week end and they were brutal and stuff. If its done right its works grand.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭ Golfgraffix


    I stopped being handicap sec in 2018, didn’t know about the double bogey change.

    Remember the committee can give a lower handicap than the 3 cards recommend, if they feel there is good reason.

    I’m pretty sure they can’t just give shots back if they think it’s wrong. When I was doing it I would wait for at least 7 qualifying scores to see if they appear on the continual assessment report. It would be the branch that would give the final go ahead if a increase was asked for


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 296 ✭✭ Golf is my Game


    No you can just change it :

    (d) The Handicap Committee should review the initial Qualifying Scores returned by all
    Member’s to whom a handicap has recently been allotted. If the Handicap Committee
    determines that an adjustment is required to a Member’s recently allotted handicap,
    this must be administered in accordance with the provisions of Clause 23 B.

    And no need to go to the branch.


    And if it a case like the above where they reduced a score to a double then they have to correct their own error anyway whatever as its them that didnt give the right handicap in the first place whatever about scores.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭ Golfgraffix


    No you can just change it :

    (d) The Handicap Committee should review the initial Qualifying Scores returned by all
    Member’s to whom a handicap has recently been allotted. If the Handicap Committee
    determines that an adjustment is required to a Member’s recently allotted handicap,
    this must be administered in accordance with the provisions of Clause 23 B.

    And no need to go to the branch.


    And if it a case like the above where they reduced a score to a double then they have to correct their own error anyway whatever as its them that didnt give the right handicap in the first place whatever about scores.

    23b is general play adjustment, no? There has to be some amount of general play before this can be considered. (I guess if a mistake was made there should be some way of correcting but I don’t think it’s under a 23b adjustment)

    Of course I cited be wrong !!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 296 ✭✭ Golf is my Game


    23/5 Adjusting Newly Allocated Playing Handicaps
    Q. Handicap Committees are advised to monitor the early returns of players with newly allocated
    handicaps. In what circumstance should the Handicap Committee take action?
    A. Assigning handicaps to new members is one of the most important functions of a Handicap
    Committee. Following the inputting of the score details from the requisite number of cards, the
    computer program calculates a handicap. This should be regarded as a recommendation that
    should be reviewed with reference to factors such as time of year, prevailing weather conditions,
    previous playing history, and the most recent past handicap held, where applicable, before a
    handicap is allotted.
    The following are examples of instances where the Handicap Committee did not, or was not able to,
    determine this essential information and the players were awarded initial handicaps that were higher
    than the players were entitled to.
    Player Handicap
    Allocated
    Early Scoring
    Sequence Comments
    A 23 -2, -2, NR, -2, -5 After 6 months handicap was 12.7
    B 15 0, -3, 0, -6 After 12 Competitions handicap was 8.1
    C 27 -1, 0, -7, 1 After 12 Competitions handicap was 20.2
    In allocating and reviewing a new handicap the Handicap Committee has to be seen to be fair not
    only to the player but also the rest of the membership. If initial handicaps allocated to new members
    are too liberal the new members enjoy an unfair competitive advantage.
    In the examples cited above, the Handicap Committee would be justified in applying a General Play
    Adjustment after the return of early scores to adjust the respective handicaps to a level more
    reflective of playing ability.


    I guess it depends on whats the differential and how many scores. But its saying they should have acted on the above. If someone has 11 better than CSS in the first comp then they should act. If they are 5 better you let the computer cut them. But if they have 5 better in the second comp again then you jump in. In the examples above their saying the hc should have been changed after 3 or 4 comps based on those score but wasnt so it too 6 months and 12 comps for them to get to the right handicap which is wrong. So if bigger gaps than above, you shouldnt even wait 3 4 5 comps to correct. As it says, you have a responsibility to the rest of the field too not just the one person. In each example you can see the hc is wrong after two comps clearly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭ Golfgraffix


    23/5 Adjusting Newly Allocated Playing Handicaps
    Q. Handicap Committees are advised to monitor the early returns of players with newly allocated
    handicaps. In what circumstance should the Handicap Committee take action?
    A. Assigning handicaps to new members is one of the most important functions of a Handicap
    Committee. Following the inputting of the score details from the requisite number of cards, the
    computer program calculates a handicap. This should be regarded as a recommendation that
    should be reviewed with reference to factors such as time of year, prevailing weather conditions,
    previous playing history, and the most recent past handicap held, where applicable, before a
    handicap is allotted.
    The following are examples of instances where the Handicap Committee did not, or was not able to,
    determine this essential information and the players were awarded initial handicaps that were higher
    than the players were entitled to.
    Player Handicap
    Allocated
    Early Scoring
    Sequence Comments
    A 23 -2, -2, NR, -2, -5 After 6 months handicap was 12.7
    B 15 0, -3, 0, -6 After 12 Competitions handicap was 8.1
    C 27 -1, 0, -7, 1 After 12 Competitions handicap was 20.2
    In allocating and reviewing a new handicap the Handicap Committee has to be seen to be fair not
    only to the player but also the rest of the membership. If initial handicaps allocated to new members
    are too liberal the new members enjoy an unfair competitive advantage.
    In the examples cited above, the Handicap Committee would be justified in applying a General Play
    Adjustment after the return of early scores to adjust the respective handicaps to a level more
    reflective of playing ability.


    I guess it depends on whats the differential and how many scores. But its saying they should have acted on the above. If someone has 11 better than CSS in the first comp then they should act. If they are 5 better you let the computer cut them. But if they have 5 better in the second comp again then you jump in. In the examples above their saying the hc should have been changed after 3 or 4 comps based on those score but wasnt so it too 6 months and 12 comps for them to get to the right handicap which is wrong. So if bigger gaps than above, you shouldnt even wait 3 4 5 comps to correct. As it says, you have a responsibility to the rest of the field too not just the one person. In each example you can see the hc is wrong after two comps clearly.

    I’d agree if for a cut but for a 1 shot increase I’m not sure

    I always found Anita in the Leinster Branch great for these questions


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    I’d agree if for a cut but for a 1 shot increase I’m not sure

    I always found Anita in the Leinster Branch great for these questions
    Yeah, adding shots back is not as simple as taking shots off. The example above of the guy with a net 61 is easily dealt with by an ESR. In any case, the club concerned should not allow new handicaps win medals or majors until at least three qualifying competition cards are submitted.

    On the general point of allocating initial handicaps; apart from looking at cards submitted, the handicap committee should also be looking at previous golfing experience and questions on that should be on the application form.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭ Golfgraffix


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    On the general point of allocating initial handicaps; apart from looking at cards submitted, the handicap committee should also be looking at previous golfing experience and questions on that should be on the application form.

    In order to get a handicap in our club you have to fill out the questionaire which covers your playing history.

    I wanted to add a question that said "Do you have two arms, two legs and a head ?" If so you are getting no more than 18 !!!!

    J


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,541 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    Yes, triples count now. Maybe the sec got it wrong and so thats why they gave 10 instead of 11. Ask them do they no that rule. If they say the change the triple to a double then tell them they got the rule wrong and so theyl change you to 11.

    Can you elaborate more on "triples count now"?
    I cant find anything relating to this change under CONGU (other than clause 19 which is not new)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 296 ✭✭ Golf is my Game


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Can you elaborate more on "triples count now"?
    I cant find anything relating to this change under CONGU (other than clause 19 which is not new)

    It's in the 2018 documents and onwards from that and in the 'changes for 2018' summary. I have it somewhere but not with me. Effectively its now reduce big numbers on a hole to max of 2 x par. I think it was to do with the increasing of handicaps beyond the old 28 limit. So it didn't make sense anymore to have max score of 2over meaning 36 over for 18 so with the formula a max I think of 33 as initial allocation. Which is fair enough if playing of 54 is fair enough too. So they had to change it to make sense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,541 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    It's in the 2018 documents and onwards from that and in the 'changes for 2018' summary. I have it somewhere but not with me. Effectively its now reduce big numbers on a hole to max of 2 x par. I think it was to do with the increasing of handicaps beyond the old 28 limit. So it didn't make sense anymore to have max score of 2over meaning 36 over for 18 so with the formula a max I think of 33 as initial allocation. Which is fair enough if playing of 54 is fair enough too. So they had to change it to make sense.

    Whats the actual change though? clause 19 (net double bogey) has been around for years, right? :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 296 ✭✭ Golf is my Game


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Whats the actual change though? clause 19 (net double bogey) has been around for years, right? :confused:

    It's only for cards in initial allocation calculation.

    Two over in comps is the same as always.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    It's only for cards in initial allocation calculation.

    Two over in comps is the same as always.
    Yeah. Clause 16.3 on initial handicap allotment. Specifically this:
    (b)The Handicap Committee shall 1.Adjust any score of more than double par at any hole to a score of double par (i.e. 6 on a Par 3, 8 on a Par 4 and 10 on a Par 5)


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,541 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    It's only for cards in initial allocation calculation.

    Two over in comps is the same as always.

    Ah gotcha.
    I would have always mentally done a scratch golfer clause 19 adjustment when looking at someones initial card anyway.

    Especially someone who is throwing in birdies and triples...
    Not looking at anyone in particular OP :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭ JoeCole26


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Yeah. Clause 16.3 on initial handicap allotment. Specifically this:

    Last question, so if had a 7 on a par 4 should that be marked as a 6 or a 7 or initial handicap allotment? Thanks again for your help


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭ Golfgraffix


    JoeCole26 wrote: »
    Last question, so if had a 7 on a par 4 should that be marked as a 6 or a 7 or initial handicap allotment? Thanks again for your help

    A 7 as the limit is 2 x 4 =8


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,583 ✭✭✭✭ PARlance


    It's only for cards in initial allocation calculation.

    Two over in comps is the same as always.

    That will go some way to explain the generosity of our HC Sec for some of the new members.

    51 points won our weekend comp, 3 over gross off 18.
    President Prize the week before was full of new members as well, low to mid net 60's.

    All generally younger lads who had played before but got back into it post lockdown, handed cards in early and were playing 3-4 times a week for weeks before the comps started back. Hard to fault them or the HC Sec in the circumstances but I imagine he is getting a bit of heat about it.

    My playing partner had 44 points at the weekend, just the 7 points from top spot...eek.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭ finglashoop


    PARlance wrote: »
    That will go some way to explain the generosity of our HC Sec for some of the new members.

    51 points won our weekend comp, 3 over gross off 18.
    President Prize the week before was full of new members as well, low to mid net 60's.

    All generally younger lads who had played before but got back into it post lockdown, handed cards in early and were playing 3-4 times a week for weeks before the comps started back. Hard to fault them or the HC Sec in the circumstances but I imagine he is getting a bit of heat about it.

    My playing partner had 44 points at the weekend, just the 7 points from top spot...eek.

    61 net won the medal in elmgreen division 1 and 2

    87strokes 26 hcap


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    PARlance wrote: »
    That will go some way to explain the generosity of our HC Sec for some of the new members.

    51 points won our weekend comp, 3 over gross off 18.
    President Prize the week before was full of new members as well, low to mid net 60's.

    All generally younger lads who had played before but got back into it post lockdown, handed cards in early and were playing 3-4 times a week for weeks before the comps started back. Hard to fault them or the HC Sec in the circumstances but I imagine he is getting a bit of heat about it.

    My playing partner had 44 points at the weekend, just the 7 points from top spot...eek.
    Another factor here is the long break between qualifying competitions. We had no qualifying competitions before lockdown as the ground was too wet and placing everywhere. So you have the double whammy of no qualifying, almost daily practice before qualifying started back and lots of lads getting waaay better in the interim due to lots of practice and lessons.

    It'll sort itself out very quickly though. Some big cuts going around.


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