Irish Property Market 2020 Part 2

brisan

Cyrus wrote: »

What do you mean by make big profits but not on paper ?

Conversion
Head office supplies all the materials and a budget for wages insurance maintenance etc and we convert raw materials into finished product and send it head office for sale for free
So in the long run we make no profit as we receive no sales
Head office is in Zurich
The cheaper your conversion costs the more product you will be asked to make

wassie

Smouse156 wrote: »

Yes inflating overpriced property further would be a disaster! It should only apply to new builds to increase supply

HTB is not just about FTB. The reason it applies to new builds is to also stimulate the building industry. Its not just property developers who benefit - its a whole industry including trades, suppliers, consultants & engineers, real estate, financiers marketing etc.

brisan

Cyrus wrote: »

Where has 10k come from ? And again I would ask why come to Ireland in the first place then ?

10k off the top of my head
My nephew and his wife both work in Financial sector and both are working from home
They are saving at least 15 k a year in childcare , transport costs , lunches , clothes etc
They also have more time with their child and a shorter working week and a better quality of living
If they lost 10k each that’s 10k gross so still much better off
Multinationals will come for the tax breaks and the educated workforce that speak English as a first language

Cyrus

brisan wrote: »

Conversion
Head office supplies all the materials and a budget for wages insurance maintenance etc and we convert raw materials into finished product and send it head office for sale for free
So in the long run we make no profit as we receive no sales
Head office is in Zurich
The cheaper your conversion costs the more product you will be asked to make

if there is a legal entity involved you'll find there will be a profit, some transfer pricing arrangement, no tax authority would stand for a legal entity in its jurisdiction selling a product for free for profits to be taxed elsewhere.

Cyrus

brisan wrote: »

10k off the top of my head
My nephew and his wife both work in Financial sector and both are working from home
They are saving at least 15 k a year in childcare , transport costs , lunches , clothes etc
They also have more time with their child and a shorter working week and a better quality of living
If they lost 10k each that’s 10k gross so still much better off
Multinationals will come for the tax breaks and the educated workforce that speak English as a first language

you are misunderstanding what i was responding to, the other poster was referring to non natonals returning home to their own country, i argued if that happens they will be paid a salary thats reflective of rates there no here. He said they may be better off, and my qn was if thats the case, why would that person have come here in the first place.

As for irish people wfh saving money, im not sure how childcare gets cheaper, mine certainly hasnt, i save money on discrectionary spends as i dont buy as many lunches out, i cant see how i need to wear any less clothes, if anything my wife is buying more clothes, and we both took public transport so no massive transport saving.

brisan

Cyrus wrote: »

if there is a legal entity involved you'll find there will be a profit, some transfer pricing arrangement, no tax authority would stand for a legal entity in its jurisdiction selling a product for free for profits to be taxed elsewhere.

That’s how all the big boys operate
Why do apple funnel all their European profits to Ireland

wassie

Cyrus wrote: »

you are misunderstanding what i was responding to, the other poster was referring to non natonals returning home to their own country, i argued if that happens they will be paid a salary thats reflective of rates there no here. He said they may be better off, and my qn was if thats the case, why would that person have come here in the first place.

As for irish people wfh saving money, im not sure how childcare gets cheaper, mine certainly hasnt, i save money on discrectionary spends as i dont buy as many lunches out, i cant see how i need to wear any less clothes, if anything my wife is buying more clothes, and we both took public transport so no massive transport saving.

You hit the nail on the head - those households with high discretionary spends pre-covid who are now WFH are the ones saving the cash - typically a younger couple with no children who are FHB. Families have significantly higher fixed costs and as such wont be saving anywhere near as much.

brisan

Cyrus wrote: »

you are misunderstanding what i was responding to, the other poster was referring to non natonals returning home to their own country, i argued if that happens they will be paid a salary thats reflective of rates there no here. He said they may be better off, and my qn was if thats the case, why would that person have come here in the first place.

As for irish people wfh saving money, im not sure how childcare gets cheaper, mine certainly hasnt, i save money on discrectionary spends as i dont buy as many lunches out, i cant see how i need to wear any less clothes, if anything my wife is buying more clothes, and we both took public transport so no massive transport saving.

Childcare gets cheaper as it disappears
Nephew drops the child to school and picks him up
Before it was to a childminder at 8 and picked up at 6 with the child minder doing the school runs
They both work around it
Transport at least 30 a week PP on leap card
No work clothes required
Most women I know would have a separate wardrobe of work clothes which would be updated regularly

Cyrus

brisan wrote: »

That’s how all the big boys operate
Why do apple funnel all their European profits to Ireland

there will still be transfer pricing arrangements.

cnocbui

Cyrus wrote: »

there will still be transfer pricing arrangements.

You mean tax avoidance.

Cyrus

brisan wrote: »

Childcare gets cheaper as it disappears
Nephew drops the child to school and picks him up
Before it was to a childminder at 8 and picked up at 6 with the child minder doing the school runs
They both work around it
Transport at least 30 a week PP on leap card
No work clothes required
Most women I know would have a separate wardrobe of work clothes which would be updated regularly

i dont get this notion that childcare is no longer a requirement if you are working from home, you are either working and the children need care, or you are defrauding your employer and not doing a full days work, which isnt sustainable and falls apart at mid terms and over the summer.

unlimited dart or bus is a net cost of 70 a month per person if you have a tax saver ticket and pay the marginal rate of tax, anyone paying any more should examine their spending.

the only women i know well enough to comment on her clothes spending has replaced spending on work clothes with spending on non work clothes.

anyone this is a totally different point im not sure what we are debating.

the main saving anyone can make is on childcare and im suspicious at how significant savings can be made if people arent taking the proverbial.

Cyrus

cnocbui wrote: »

You mean tax avoidance.

its actually the opposite.

Danzy

Cyrus wrote: »

i dont get this notion that childcare is no longer a requirement if you are working from home, you are either working and the children need care, or you are defrauding your employer and not doing a full days work, which isnt sustainable and falls apart at mid terms and over the summer.

unlimited dart or bus is a net cost of 70 a month per person if you have a tax saver ticket and pay the marginal rate of tax, anyone paying any more should examine their spending.

the only women i know well enough to comment on her clothes spending has replaced spending on work clothes with spending on non work clothes.

anyone this is a totally different point im not sure what we are debating.

the main saving anyone can make is on childcare and im suspicious at how significant savings can be made if people arent taking the proverbial.

You haven't really experience in this.

Cyrus

Danzy wrote: »

You haven't really experience in this.

experience in what?

cnocbui

Cyrus wrote: »

its actually the opposite.

No it isn't.

Newspapers use the phrase "transfer pricing" as shorthand for multinational corporations shifting profits to tax havens to avoid tax in developed countries.
...
Non-governmental organizations argue that transfer pricing deleteriously affects the budgets of developing countries that lack the administrative resources to fight with well-represented multinationals. Christian Aid estimates that developing countries lose $160 billion of tax revenue annually to transfer pricing.

https://www.forbes.com/2010/06/24/tax-finance-multinational-economics-opinions-columnists-lee-sheppard.html#4550bd186346

Cyrus

cnocbui wrote: »

No it isn't.


https://www.forbes.com/2010/06/24/tax-finance-multinational-economics-opinions-columnists-lee-sheppard.html#4550bd186346

the effect of transfer pricing on mnc's is that you pay tax in every jurisdiction that you have a taxable presence in. Obviously you will ensure that you pay the most tax in lower tax locations but you still have to pay a certain amount in higher tax jurisdictions within the frameworks that exist.

Your group transfer pricing policy can be challenged and scrutinised by any of the jurisdictions so it makes sense to have such that it will stand up to such scrutiny.

so despite what newspapers might say thats the reality.

cnocbui

Cyrus wrote: »

the effect of transfer pricing on mnc's is that you pay tax in every jurisdiction that you have a taxable presence in. Obviously you will ensure that you pay the most tax in lower tax locations but you still have to pay a certain amount in higher tax jurisdictions within the frameworks that exist.

Your group transfer pricing policy can be challenged and scrutinised by any of the jurisdictions so it makes sense to have such that it will stand up to such scrutiny.

so despite what newspapers might say thats the reality.

So it's tax avoidance under the guise of misusing the phrase 'tax minimisation'.

There was an absolute classic in the UK papers a few years ago. They mentioned Starbucks had paid a thimbulfull of tax on a bathtub full of income - the first tax they had paid in the UK in over ten years. All achieved by 'buying' their beans from their subsidiary in Switzerland at sky high prices.

Despite being technically insolvent for over a decade, it then mentioned the company was looking to open 300 or so new outlets in the UK. Which of course is what every insolvent company does.

Pull the other one, it plays Money, by the Flying Lizards.

Cyrus

cnocbui wrote: »

So it's tax avoidance under the guise of misusing the phrase 'tax minimisation'.

There was an absolute classic in the UK papers a few years ago. They mentioned Starbucks had paid a thimbulfull of tax on a bathtub full of income - the first tax they had paid in the UK in over ten years. All achieved by 'buying' their beans from their subsidiary in Switzerland at sky high prices.

Despite being technically insolvent for over a decade, it then mentioned the company was looking to open 300 or so new outlets in the UK. Which of course is what every insolvent company does.

Pull the other one, it plays Money, by the Flying Lizards.

those days are effectively over or on their way out with the advent of CbCR and Beps

https://www.oecd.org/tax/beps/about/

https://www.businessinsider.com/the-european-division-of-starbucks-paid-28-uk-tax-last-year-2018-9?r=US&IR=T#:~:text=Starbucks'%20UK%20headquartered%20businesses%20paid,UK%20for%20its%20tax%20affairs.

brisan

Cyrus wrote: »

those days are effectively over or on their way out with the advent of CbCR and Beps

https://www.oecd.org/tax/beps/about/

https://www.businessinsider.com/the-european-division-of-starbucks-paid-28-uk-tax-last-year-2018-9?r=US&IR=T#:~:text=Starbucks'%20UK%20headquartered%20businesses%20paid,UK%20for%20its%20tax%20affairs.

I think a multinational company with billions in sales and manufacturing bases all over the world can afford accountants who know their way around these tax laws better than anybody on here will

awec

https://twitter.com/RTENewsAtOne/status/1316003421443497984

Dwarf.Shortage

awec wrote: »

https://twitter.com/RTENewsAtOne/status/1316003421443497984

How on earth are they going to build units for €52k a piece

awec

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

How on earth are they going to build units for €52k a piece

I think the tweet is misleading. I think what McGrath said was he'd deliver 9500 social units next year, and that the 500m for direct-build social units was part of that.

I was only half listening to it on the tv when making some lunch, so could have picked it up wrong.

fliball123

I tell you one thing the government are not cutting anything and are doubling down all of those saying the place is going to plummet into Armageddon and property prices with it will not be happy with this budget

Cyrus

brisan wrote: »

I think a multinational company with billions in sales and manufacturing bases all over the world can afford accountants who know their way around these tax laws better than anybody on here will

maybe stop guessing about things you have no experience in.

tigger123

fliball123 wrote: »

I tell you one thing the government are not cutting anything and are doubling down all of those saying the place is going to plummet into Armageddon and property prices with it will not be happy with this budget

There is absolutely no political appetite for austerity this time round.

Pascal's gonna make it rain!

cnocbui

Cyrus wrote: »

those days are effectively over or on their way out with the advent of CbCR and Beps

https://www.oecd.org/tax/beps/about/

https://www.businessinsider.com/the-european-division-of-starbucks-paid-28-uk-tax-last-year-2018-9?r=US&IR=T#:~:text=Starbucks'%20UK%20headquartered%20businesses%20paid,UK%20for%20its%20tax%20affairs.

The US didn't sign the BEPS agreement and probably never will.

Ministers and high-level officials from 76 countries signed, or formally expressed their intention to sign, the multilateral convention designed to reduce the opportunity for tax avoidance by multinational enterprises. Notably, the United States is not a signatory to the Convention.

https://rsmus.com/what-we-do/services/tax/international-tax-planning/multilateral-convention-on-treaty-measures-to-prevent-beps-is-si.html

Cyrus

cnocbui wrote: »

The US didn't sign the BEPS agreement and probably never will.

https://rsmus.com/what-we-do/services/tax/international-tax-planning/multilateral-convention-on-treaty-measures-to-prevent-beps-is-si.html

whats your point?

Dwarf.Shortage

Cyrus wrote: »

whats your point?

If the US aren't aboard it will struggle to become the accepted western standard for accounting/tax calculating.

Cyrus

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

If the US aren't aboard it will struggle to become the accepted western standard for accounting/tax calculating.

its very much in effect here in europe, where you will find a lot of US MNCs have emea headquarters, who are liable to tax in those jurisdictions.

TheSheriff

Kasey_Don wrote: »

Housing crisis started in 2013. Nearly 8 years later and this is the state of the housing market. A new build in Leixlip for ****ing 385k.
https://www.daft.ie/kildare/new-homes-for-sale/barnhall-meadows-leixlip-kildare-156467/

It's an absolute disgrace what FG have done to this country and it's young people.


Only the rich can avail of the help to buy.

I really hate FG. They have ****ed young peoples lives for nearly a decade.

We viewed barnhall last year, to be honest if it was anywhere closer to Dublin we likely would have gone for it, thought they were really nice builds, the surrounds were nice, tiny gardens tough and really over looked! At least the showhouses were anyway.

We were there for phase I (maybe phase ii) and it was a bit of madness, we tried to ask a few Qs of the EA on the day and were basically told submit them by email, that if we were not putting down a deposit they didn't have time. Most of the good ones , aspect, end of terrace were sold on the day but I did notice the not as desirable houses for hanging about for several months after.