Irish Property Market 2020 Part 2

PropQueries

Hubertj wrote: »

you would be wildly incorrect in that assumption

This is an article from 2015, so I don't know how relevant it is today. If someone can find more up to date information, it would be helpful. It states:

"The accounts show the bulk of staff during 2014, 1,809, were involved in sales and marketing, while 332 were involved in engineering and operations, and 436 were in the “general and administration” category. Total payroll costs in 2014 were €324 million, up from €273 million the previous year."

Link to Irish Times article here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/google-ireland-turnover-rises-to-18-3bn-on-increased-ad-revenue-1.2409160

This is not a debate on the quality of jobs at Google or Facebook. They are quality jobs. It is a debate on whether many of the jobs are indeed back office/ customer service type roles and are more likely to be amenable to WFH than other types of roles e.g. engineering etc., which would be more likely to require such employees to be in an office environment for collaboration etc.

Hubertj

PropQueries wrote: »

This is an article from 2015, so I don't know how relevant it is today. If someone can find more up to date information, it would be helpful. It states:

"The accounts show the bulk of staff during 2014, 1,809, were involved in sales and marketing, while 332 were involved in engineering and operations, and 436 were in the “general and administration” category. Total payroll costs in 2014 were €324 million, up from €273 million the previous year."

Link to Irish Times article here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/google-ireland-turnover-rises-to-18-3bn-on-increased-ad-revenue-1.2409160

This is not a debate on the quality of jobs at Google or Facebook. They are quality jobs. It is a debate on whether many of the jobs are indeed back office/ customer service type roles and are more likely to be amenable to WFH than other types of roles e.g. engineering etc., which would be more likely to require such employees to be in an office environment for collaboration etc.

So they’re neither back office nor customer service roles which you stated they were. I’m not going to school you on what other functions are delivered. Plenty of people will work from home maybe full time while others are very eager to return to office.
It’s common sense but there is no need to make stuff up to try and make your point.

Smouse156

Hubertj wrote: »

why are you making things up again to try and make your point? Do you even know what back office means?

He is right Financial Services (FS)! In FS Dublin is one giant back office. There are very few front office (revenue generating jobs) in FS. I can’t speak about tech as I don’t work in that area.

Whether they need to be in the office as much as front office roles is debatable

PropQueries

Hubertj wrote: »

So they’re neither back office nor customer service roles which you stated they were. I’m not going to school you on what other functions are delivered. Plenty of people will work from home maybe full time while others are very eager to return to office.
It’s common sense but there is no need to make stuff up to try and make your point.

I didn't make anything up Every firm has a big back office team. For example, Google has 2,000 jobs in Zurich and these are mostly in engineering, development etc. This is what I would be comparing the roles in Google Dublin to.

Link to article on Zurich roles here: https://www.businessinsider.com/google-zurich-headquarters-tour-2018-1?r=US&IR=T

This was my original post to someone else: "I think the difference between London and Dublin is that many of the jobs in Dublin are back-office/ customer service jobs so are more amenable to remote working in the the long-term, probably permanently. Many jobs in the same organisations in London, New York or Silicon Valley would probably benefit more from employees going back to the office than those in Dublin."

Your reply to this post was that I'm 'making stuff up'. I don't see where you got that idea from.

But, if that's what you believe, I can't help that. I did show you an article that appears to show that the majority of roles in Google Dublin are back office, sales or marketing roles, but maybe the Google annual accounts are made up too?.

Not much more I can do to defend my position I guess. I'll let you have the win.

mcsean2163

OwlsZat wrote: »

3rd? Any link for the league table?

In 2016, we were 2nd.

https://howmuch.net/articles/per-capita-debt

We were second three years ago too, I believe the USA has overtaken us now but cannot find the more recent graph.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/10/this-is-how-much-debt-your-country-has-per-person/

Scroll down to the second graph.

Anyway, point is that we're carrying a lot of debt for a small island country reliant on FDI that has shut down its airports.

Hubertj

PropQueries wrote: »

I didn't make anything up Every firm has a big back office team. For example, Google has 2,000 jobs in Zurich and these are mostly in engineering, development etc. This is what I would be comparing the roles in Google Dublin to.

Link to article on Zurich roles here: https://www.businessinsider.com/google-zurich-headquarters-tour-2018-1?r=US&IR=T

This was my original post to someone else: "I think the difference between London and Dublin is that many of the jobs in Dublin are back-office/ customer service jobs so are more amenable to remote working in the the long-term, probably permanently. Many jobs in the same organisations in London, New York or Silicon Valley would probably benefit more from employees going back to the office than those in Dublin."

Your reply to this post was that I'm 'making stuff up'. I don't see where you got that idea from.

But, if that's what you believe, I can't help that. I did show you an article that appears to show that the majority of roles in Google Dublin are back office, sales or marketing roles, but maybe the Google annual accounts are made up too?.

Not much more I can do to defend my position I guess. I'll let you have the win.

sales and marketing are front office roles. you should know that if you are able to say many IFSC roles are back office. I'll leave it at that.

awec

I think the point is that the term "back office" is being used here in the wrong context. Sales and marketing are not back office, and they are not "customer service". Back office refers to ancilliary roles, like accounting, IT, admin etc.

However, sales, marketing and operations are suited to a WFH scenario, even more so than engineering. These roles have low equipment requirements, you can do it with a phone and a laptop.

PropQueries

Hubertj wrote: »

sales and marketing are front office roles. you should know that if you are able to say many IFSC roles are back office. I'll leave it at that.

I'll give you that if the definition of front office has changed since my time. Years ago it meant going out to meet and negotiate with clients and bring in the sales. I don't believe it was ever defined as managing the client after they have become a customer or answering the phone to someone calling up to book an advertising slot.

My understanding is that both Google and Facebook do have these roles, as what I would define as, front office roles in every country in Europe. But, maybe the definition has changed and my apologies.

TheSheriff

awec wrote: »

I think the point is that the term "back office" is being used here in the wrong context. Sales and marketing are not back office, and they are not "customer service". Back office refers to ancilliary roles, like accounting, IT, admin etc.

However, sales, marketing and operations are suited to a WFH scenario, even more so than engineering. These roles have low equipment requirements, you can do it with a phone and a laptop.

I would have thought the sales roles would be more suited to an office environment to be honest, to generate that competitive streak with fellow sales colleagues. My other half was in tech sales at one point and it was all about the office enviroment, the sales huddles, finding leads, comparing metrics, the office perks etc.

PropQueries

awec wrote: »

I think the point is that the term "back office" is being used here in the wrong context. Sales and marketing are not back office, and they are not "customer service". Back office refers to ancilliary roles, like accounting, IT, admin etc.

However, sales, marketing and operations are suited to a WFH scenario, even more so than engineering. These roles have low equipment requirements, you can do it with a phone and a laptop.

You're right. But when people say back office, it's generally considered a generic term used for most roles that can be done without facing the client and the meaning is generally understood. Do people these days really have to state and define every role when making a point?

Ok, back to property!!!

awec

PropQueries wrote: »

You're right. But when people say back office, it's generally considered a generic term used for most roles that can be done without facing the client and the meaning is generally understood. Do people these days really have to state and define every role when making a point?

Ok, back to property!!!

I think the problem with your definition is that in the case of big tech MNCs this would be almost every single employee.

Cyrus

PropQueries wrote: »

It's not just the IT firms.

"Bank of Ireland has decided to leave one of its major Dublin city centre offices following a push to get its staff working from home.

The company said the decision to leave Burlington Plaza 2, which is normally the base for about 700 people, was not a direct result of the Covid-19 outbreak.

However, the bank is looking to cut down on its office space and move more of its staff to remote working where possible. In an internal email, the company said it has decided to leave Burlington Plaza 2 by the end of 2020."

Link to article here: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bank-of-ireland-quits-city-centre-office-tk39txpds#:~:text=Bank%20of%20Ireland%20has%20decided,of%20the%20Covid%2D19%20outbreak.

Given the redundancy program that’s hardly surprising

tigger123

PropQueries wrote: »

Maybe. So, Google employ (according to the media) c. 8,000 workers in Ireland split between c. 3,500 direct employees and c.4,500 for sub-contractors.

I haven't been in this area for a long time so maybe someone else can clarify on the current situation in relation to the type of roles in Google and Facebook?

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I did say it was an assumption.

It's pretty amazing that you post with such confidence on things you clearly havent a bulls notion about.

It's like listening to a taxi driver sometimes.

Humour Me

PropQueries wrote: »

It's not just the IT firms.

"Bank of Ireland has decided to leave one of its major Dublin city centre offices following a push to get its staff working from home.

The company said the decision to leave Burlington Plaza 2, which is normally the base for about 700 people, was not a direct result of the Covid-19 outbreak.

However, the bank is looking to cut down on its office space and move more of its staff to remote working where possible. In an internal email, the company said it has decided to leave Burlington Plaza 2 by the end of 2020."

Link to article here: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bank-of-ireland-quits-city-centre-office-tk39txpds#:~:text=Bank%20of%20Ireland%20has%20decided,of%20the%20Covid%2D19%20outbreak.

This was mentioned by the bank back in March as part of the banks business update. The lease was coming to an end and they still have large offices on Mespil road and baggot street that they can transfer the staff to.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/bank-of-ireland-weighs-burlington-plaza-exit-to-cut-central-offices-1.4194367

OwlsZat

awec wrote: »

Probably lack of finance, combined with an unwillingness to overextend and have too much-unsold stock on the books like in 08?

They gave them the help to buy to try put some money in their pocket.

I would imagine that the construction sector is a significant source of income for the government, so any further incentives would have to be very carefully balanced against the impact of the lower tax take, and whether it was worth it overall.

I thought we made property more expensive to get builders back to work. If that was the aim we should have reduced building cost. Does anyone have a breakdown of what housing returned to the exchequer?

Seems daft that we turn something that should practically be a human right into a profit-making exercise. Not to mention if we had grown an affordable housing market we'd have more consistent employment for builders (so more PAYE) and reduce the spend in housing assistance payments. I'm not sure the reluctance to bring prices down due to tax take makes any sense tbh.

I still think the pension reserve shortfall is more reason.

Billythekid19

This house in cork gone for 20 per cent above the guide price today. Still appears to be a sellers market
https://www.auctioneera.ie/property/133-mount-nebo-avenue-gurranabraher-cork-t23-v2v5

cudsy1

Billythekid19 wrote: »

This house in cork gone for 20 per cent above the guide price today. Still appears to be a sellers market
https://www.auctioneera.ie/property/133-mount-nebo-avenue-gurranabraher-cork-t23-v2v5

Cork city places around 200k asking are going sale agreed well above asking within a week or two after approx 3 viewing sessions of around 30-50 viewers at the moment. Its tricky even getting a viewing, and after doing so on one in the last week the estate agent secretary barely thought me worthy of telling me the current offer. As in, she didn't! Agent had to ring me back to assure me my offer would be perfectly valid, and to inform me of current offer. That experience was a first for me, after 1.5 years of bidding and viewings.

Its hard to imagine cork city ever calming down, with supply meeting demand.

Wanderer78

cudsy1 wrote:

Its hard to imagine cork city ever calming down, with supply meeting demand.

Supply and demand have little or nothing to do with these type of outcomes, as the availability of credit is the primary factor of the selling price, and there's plenty of that available, to those that can afford it

PropQueries

Cairn Homes says its construction activity is back to 85% of pre-pandemic levels.

Link to Irish Independent article here: https://www.independent.ie/business/cairn-homes-eyes-20m-profit-as-building-approaches-pre-crisis-levels-39519349.html

brisan

Cyrus wrote: »

maybe not, i have got the sense the language will change but i could be totally wrong

The Government May say go back to the office but a lot of employers will tell their workers to stay WFH

The_Conductor

PropQueries wrote: »

Cairn Homes says its construction activity is back to 85% of pre-pandemic levels.

Link to Irish Independent article here: https://www.independent.ie/business/cairn-homes-eyes-20m-profit-as-building-approaches-pre-crisis-levels-39519349.html

They were interviewed on Morning Ireland before 8 this morning- and were cagey as hell- and refused to speculate on possible price falls- insisting that they were insulated from any price falls as most of their properties they're developing (on 44 sites apparently) are between the 330k and 380k price brackets.

The caginess in the interview- spoke louder than what they actually said.

brisan

The_Conductor wrote: »

They were interviewed on Morning Ireland before 8 this morning- and were cagey as hell- and refused to speculate on possible price falls- insisting that they were insulated from any price falls as most of their properties they're developing (on 44 sites apparently) are between the 330k and 380k price brackets.

The caginess in the interview- spoke louder than what they actually said.

Well unless the owners of Cairn homes have learned the harsh lesson they received in Belmayne they are in for a shock when the wage subsidies stop and unemployment shoots up.
Banks already cautious about lending

Sweet.Science

Sure these developers can still just sell them to the council for market rate . Win win

PropQueries

brisan wrote: »

Well unless the owners of Cairn homes have learned the harsh lesson they received in Belmayne they are in for a shock when the wage subsidies stop and unemployment shoots up.
Banks already cautious about lending

What happened in Belmayne?

Billythekid19

Billythekid19 wrote: »

This house in cork gone for 20 per cent above the guide price today. Still appears to be a sellers market
https://www.auctioneera.ie/property/133-mount-nebo-avenue-gurranabraher-cork-t23-v2v5

Guide price was low, usually is with auctions to be fair.

Two other recent ish sales of 3 bed terraced houses in the area ........... 133 Mount Nebo is in turnkey condition so what it fetched (€226k) isn't at all surprising, IMO.

79 Mount Nebo Ave, Gurranabraher, Co. Cork
€220,000 | 22/06/18

279 Cathedral Rd, Gurranabraher, Co. Cork
€203,000

brisan wrote: »

The Government May say go back to the office but a lot of employers will tell their workers to stay WFH

Not a hope IMO, with capacity restrictions on public transport etc it's not feasible ......... we'll find out shortly.

brisan

PropQueries wrote: »

What happened in Belmayne?

Lots of unsold stock , pyrite , and they went bust

brisan

Augeo wrote: »

Guide price was low, usually is with auctions to be fair.

Two other recent ish sales of 3 bed terraced houses in the area ........... 133 Mount Nebo is in turnkey condition so what it fetched (€226k) isn't at all surprising, IMO.

79 Mount Nebo Ave, Gurranabraher, Co. Cork
€220,000 | 22/06/18

279 Cathedral Rd, Gurranabraher, Co. Cork
€203,000



Not a hope IMO, with capacity restrictions on public transport etc it's not feasible ......... we'll find out shortly.

As I say MAY say go back to work as one poster said this was on the agenda
Personally I can’t see it happening.
Dart already starting to fill up with schools back but nothing like pre Covid

brisan

PropQueries wrote: »

What happened in Belmayne?

Lots of unsold stock , pyrite , and they went bust

brisan

Augeo wrote: »

Guide price was low, usually is with auctions to be fair.

Two other recent ish sales of 3 bed terraced houses in the area ........... 133 Mount Nebo is in turnkey condition so what it fetched (€226k) isn't at all surprising, IMO.

79 Mount Nebo Ave, Gurranabraher, Co. Cork
€220,000 | 22/06/18

279 Cathedral Rd, Gurranabraher, Co. Cork
€203,000



Not a hope IMO, with capacity restrictions on public transport etc it's not feasible ......... we'll find out shortly.

I have seen auctioneera massively underestimate the price on house and also massively overestimate them
One property on the market at 395 in D5 eventually sold for 332 k
Another in Belmayne at 385 for months now and no bid
Worth no more than 330 in the current market.
So EA do get it wrong on plenty of occasions

Cyrus

handsome house

500 shades of grey

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/18-castle-avenue-clontarf-dublin-3/4453481