Twitter removing "master", "slave", and "blacklist" to be more inclusi

hetuzozaho

Cordell wrote: »

Now, is is a big deal? No..

That's all I meant.
It's such a common thing. Easy refactor(my IDE basically does this for me these days by itself, I'll be out of a job soon!!) and automated tests confirming all is good.

Non breaking change for now so plenty of time to align if you want.

Probably a more interesting API rename change them I'm used to as it would involve reading some history to see why the names are changing, all in all a good day at work for me IMO

I actually prefer allowlist and denylist.

Cordell

There are large systems that can be brought down by something like this, this is why API changes, especially this kind of API changes that break compatibility, are to avoided like a plague. It can be managed, sure, but all this effort can be spent on something that actually makes the world better. And definitely it's not easy refactor in the IDE in all cases.

Unrelated example of how a small change can cause mayhem: https://www.theregister.com/2016/03/23/npm_left_pad_chaos/

hetuzozaho

Cordell wrote: »

There are large systems that can be brought down by something like this, this is why API changes, especially this kind of API changes that break compatibility, are to avoided like a plague. It can be managed, sure, but all this effort can be spent on something that actually makes the world better. And definitely it's not easy refactor in the IDE in all cases.

Unrelated example of how a small change can cause mayhem: https://www.theregister.com/2016/03/23/npm_left_pad_chaos/

The NPM package issue was a different kind of issue.

If your large production system can be brought down by such an API change as discussed earlier (buildbot) you need to look at how you are approaching all parts of your "Devops" or whatever you want to call it IMO. As you presumably updated a dependency, didn't test it and went to production.

Like if you disagree with what Twitter is doing fair enough, but from a technical perspective this should not be an issue and if it is then it's a good time to start following best practices within your dev / release lifecycle and it will probably improve things overall for you anyway. And I think lots of companies/developers have lots to learn in this space, but once implemented it makes for a much better life for all involved

Cordell

No, it's not that I disagree, I just find it pointless and borderline insane. But I really don't care either way.
I'm just saying that they should spend more time cleaning the contents of twitter if they want to make the world better.

Also, you think that all systems are managed devops style, which is not the case. The linux and OS ecosystem in general, which run most of the internet nowadays, are basically a dependency maze of thousands of components where a small break can bring everything down, as shown with that example, where an API just went missing for reasons.

hetuzozaho

Cordell wrote: »

No, it's not that I disagree, I just find it pointless and borderline insane. But I really don't care either way.
I'm just saying that they should spend more time cleaning the contents of twitter if they want to make the world better.

Also, you think that all systems are managed devops style, which is not the case. The linux and OS ecosystem in general, which run most of the internet nowadays, are basically a dependency maze of thousands of components where a small break can bring everything down, as shown with that example, where an API just went missing for reasons.

Regardless how you are managing it, the API example you gave should not be bringing down your large production service. If it does learn from it buildbot might have helped you in the long run!

Feisar

Could some kind soul explain to me how the terms master and slave are offensive?

Cordell

Should not doesn't mean it does not, not it will change anytime soon, or at all. For better or worse the software industry created a monster and they lost control over it

hetuzozaho

Cordell wrote: »

Should not doesn't mean it does not, not it will change anytime soon, or at all.

I agree. But people just need to own their own codebase short comings and stop blaming the library they are using

hetuzozaho

Feisar wrote: »

Could some kind soul explain to me how the terms master and slave are offensive?

In relation to slavery I guess.

And to be fair the renaming in some codebases like Mysql and openZFS the new terms could be argued to be more precise and technically correct.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Is this just attention-seeking by Twitter? It seems like something that only those working in Twitter Engineering or the wider field would need to know. Why did they release this?

hetuzozaho

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Is this just attention-seeking by Twitter? It seems like something that only those working in Twitter Engineering or the wider field would need to know. Why did they release this?

I only saw it Tweeted by the Twitter Engineering account... I think!

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

hetuzozaho wrote: »

I only saw it Tweeted by the Twitter Engineering account... I think!

Then it feels like attention-seeking because why would anyone need to know the jargon of the job other than those working in the field?

Stark

Engineers publicise their work and how they work to other engineers all the time. Most companies I've worked with have maintained tech blogs/social media presence. Some of the publications could be hardcore engineering topics, some highlighting aspects of company culture. People move between companies regularly so having more engineering knowledge in the public domain is valuable to engineers, also letting engineers know what to expect culture wise if they go to work for a place is valuable to companies in attracting engineering talent.

joseywhales

hetuzozaho wrote: »

Yep this is basic stuff nowadays IMO.

Am important part of code reviews is insuring the code being pushed is "Clean Code" and it is vital for maintaining a codebase and a big part of code reviews IMO.

So, it depends. When I review I take the stance of trying to be totally objective and logical. I am not going to allow even the perception of personal bias or feelings dictate how I review code. Our rules for making, would be consistent syntax with existing system and that the naming is as succint as possible, human readable and describes the object it names. I am not going to blacklist names due to social sensitivity because it could both alienate some people and make everyone feel more monitored and potentially judged than is necessary. I want an environment where people only feel judged on their output and shared team skills, whether they are avowed members of antifa or the KKK. If I could I would purge my memory of their gender and ethnicity too.

Their is a bigger emotional impact than just the operational cost to every beareaucratic hurdle you introduce to a process. I only want people thinking about deploying the next piece of functionality and nothing else.

oyvey

Stark wrote: »

FWIW, AWS replaced the terms master and slave with terms like "primary" and "replica" quite some time ago.

No-one got upset from what I recall.

Enjoy it while it lasts. Once cloning becomes mainstream the clones will feel excluded by those terms.

2u2me

hetuzozaho wrote: »

In relation to slavery I guess.

And to be fair the renaming in some codebases like Mysql and openZFS the new terms could be argued to be more precise and technically correct.

Is that your answer as someone that is offended by those terms? Or is that what you've been told?

I have never met anyone that is merely offended by a word, always they are offended by the how words are used.

I'd like to meet one of these people and ask them a few questions.

ronivek

2u2me wrote: »

Is that your answer as someone that is offended by those terms? Or is that what you've been told?

I have never met anyone that is merely offended by a word, always they are offended by the how words are used.

I'd like to meet one of these people and ask them a few questions.

Well the Twitter engineer who started the renaming effort that we're discussing here saw the term "master slave rekick" in an e-mail and it motivated him to push for change.

He didn't provide additional context but if I had to guess I would say it's probably describing some sort of operation which the master invokes on a slave to restart or retry something. Possibly the image this invoked in his mind was of a slave-master kicking a slave to demand some work be carried out; not exactly the most pleasant of metaphors.

bmc58

Deleted User wrote: »

Twitter engineers replacing racially loaded tech terms like 'master,' 'slave'

No.. Not from their site's content or tweets.. From its codebase.

Since when does a programming language need to be more inclusive? Last year apparently. Some worthless cúnt who works there took issue with it and decided to save the world from racism and slavery.

But more importantly, how on Earth are "master" or "slave" racially loaded terms when there are more slaves now than ever before, and they're not all black, and the majority of slaves are owned by people of their own race? Why is America trying to force this idea on us that only black people have ever been slaves and only white people have ever been slave owners?

If they cared about black slavery, they should campaign for black people to stop selling black people to black people in Africa. But I guess it's easier to spend a few mill changing a programming language.

What will one of the Major Snooker/Golf tournaments be called now eg The Masters.

2u2me

ronivek wrote: »

Well the Twitter engineer who started the renaming effort that we're discussing here saw the term "master slave rekick" in an e-mail and it motivated him to push for change.

He didn't provide additional context but if I had to guess I would say it's probably describing some sort of operation which the master invokes on a slave to restart or retry something. Possibly the image this invoked in his mind was of a slave-master kicking a slave to demand some work be carried out; not exactly the most pleasant of metaphors.

I'd say the only image invoked in his mind was one of public relations. He realized the potential to virtue-signal and began broadcasting.

But perhaps you're right; maybe someone that has been offended could post about it. Words like nazi are used pretty much everyday on message boards and never evoke such emotions. In fact the ones using these words the most are usually the most progressive, so it is rather curious.

Gentleman Off The Pitch

ronivek wrote: »

Well the Twitter engineer who started the renaming effort that we're discussing here saw the term "master slave rekick" in an e-mail and it motivated him to push for change.

He didn't provide additional context but if I had to guess I would say it's probably describing some sort of operation which the master invokes on a slave to restart or retry something. Possibly the image this invoked in his mind was of a slave-master kicking a slave to demand some work be carried out; not exactly the most pleasant of metaphors.

Horrifying

Tell me how

2u2me wrote: »

Is that your answer as someone that is offended by those terms? Or is that what you've been told?

I have never met anyone that is merely offended by a word, always they are offended by the how words are used.

I'd like to meet one of these people and ask them a few questions.

Can you not consider that someone who's ascendants were slaves might be uncomfortable with the Master/Slave terminology and how it might be used even within a professional environment.

Think about how this combination of words would be used in a modern day environment, it still communicates control and subservience of one entity over another and even the implying that that doesn't matter, it's just words, could make someone feel that if it doesn't matter now, the view is that it didn't matter then.

ronivek

2u2me wrote: »

I'd say the only image invoked in his mind was one of public relations. He realized the potential to virtue-signal and began broadcasting.

Except he didn't post anything about it until some 18 months later when Twitter's Engineering Lead named him.

But yes; I'm sure absolutely everyone on the planet with black skin doesn't genuinely have any issues with slavery and words in the English language with roots in that practice. They all just do it to 'virtue signal' and for 'clout'; they couldn't possibly have any genuine negative feelings about it. Right?

RedXIV

Imagine this goes a step further and some of these words become offensive:

public/private
int/char
def
class
package
bash/bat
bool

you'll have people trying to rewrite languages that have been around since the advent of computing. and it's theoretically do-able, but the effort is staggering and ultimately, if a few hearing impaired people are unhappy with "def" being in a codebase, are you going to migrate your entire codebase off python? Maybe if PETA get involved

4068ac1elhodqr

Estate agents now told to reel in their nasty blurb when flogging houses,
They can only call the master bedroom, the 'big bedroom'.

2u2me

ronivek wrote: »

Except he didn't post anything about it until some 18 months later when Twitter's Engineering Lead named him.

But yes; I'm sure absolutely everyone on the planet with black skin doesn't genuinely have any issues with slavery and words in the English language with roots in that practice. They all just do it to 'virtue signal' and for 'clout'; they couldn't possibly have any genuine negative feelings about it. Right?

All I asked for was is there anyone that is genuinely offended by mere words alone, because I haven't seen them anywhere.

Always it's people like you claiming that there are other people that are offended somewhere else. But yes my imagination works just fine.

Stark

Jerry Fancy Ranch wrote: »

Estate agents now told to reel in their nasty blurb when flogging houses,
They can only call the master bedroom, the 'big bedroom'.

Word "master" on its own isn't considered offensive by anyone.

I'd be quite worried if an estate agent started describing the bedrooms in a house as "the master bedroom and the slave bedrooms" to me.

Quantum Erasure

https://propertyindustryeye.com/master-bedroom-may-have-become-a-politically-incorrect-term/

oyvey

Stark wrote: »

Word "master" on its own isn't considered offensive by anyone.

...yet.

ronivek

2u2me wrote: »

All I asked for was is there anyone that is genuinely offended by mere words alone, because I haven't seen them anywhere.

Always it's people like you claiming that there are other people that are offended somewhere else. But yes my imagination works just fine.

So you're saying nobody on the planet has ever or would ever be offended by 'mere words alone'?

2u2me

ronivek wrote: »

So you're saying nobody on the planet has ever or would ever be offended by 'mere words alone'?

Can't say I've ever come across anyone, no. Have you? Could you post something up where someone is offended on their own behalf and not that of others? Remember that it's from mere words alone and not the context in which they are used.