Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VIII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

aloyisious

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I see that Sidney Powell is in Georgia telling GOP voters to boycott the January 5th elections because they can’t be trusted. I mean if they want to go that way then fine, they’ll suppress their vote.

Her president will be in Georgia on Sat campaigning on behalf of the two GOP senators. An "accidental" crossing-of-paths could be interesting.

Leroy42

So Trump gives 'probably the most important speech'. Not one on his inauguration, not one to deal with Covid, not a speech about the vaccine or the hope for all Americans.

A speech where he goes off on wild conspiracies but at the heart of it is a cry for help because he lost.

His mandate was to MAGA, and instead, during his four years in office, he is claiming that he allowed the greatest undermining of the electoral system in history such that the US can now not be regarded as a democracy.

We can argue back and forth over just how we rate Trump in terms of his policies etc, but surely the man that is in charge while the democratic system was torn apart will be seen as the worst POTUS ever.

He said himself that his job is to protect the constituation, and in his own speech he makes the case that he failed, spectacularly, to do that.

Brussels Sprout

Leroy42 wrote: »

We can argue back and forth over just how we rate Trump in terms of his policies etc, but surely the man that is in charge while the democratic system was torn apart will be seen as the worst POTUS ever.

I think he'll certainly be in the conversation.

Looking at the various scholarly rankings of the Presidents almost all of the worst ones served in the 19th century (Buchanan, A. Johnson, Grant, Harrison, Pierce). Most of them were seen as failures due to how they handled the buildup to or the aftermath of the Civil War.

Harding and Hoover seem to be the only ones from the 20th century.

I suspect Bush Jr. and Trump will join them in time.

FatherTed

I know it's only 7 weeks until inauguration day but with all of these unending claims from Trump, shouldn't his competency to govern during this time be under question by both the cabinet and Congress?

duploelabs

FatherTed wrote: »

I know it's only 7 weeks until inauguration day but with all of these unending claims from Trump, shouldn't his competency to govern during this time be under question by both the cabinet and Congress?

If the GOP had two vertebrae to rub together...

Water John

Three former Presidents going to take Covid vaccine on TV. Maybe the present one should join them.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/dec/03/obama-clinton-bush-covid-vaccine-safety

looksee

Trump appears to be in the process of dismantling the Civil Service, so Biden will have an almost impossible task if Trump actually goes ahead with his plans and replaces long standing career civil servants with Trump lackeys. And still the GOP let him away with it.

Itssoeasy

looksee wrote: »

Trump appears to be in the process of dismantling the Civil Service, so Biden will have an almost impossible task if Trump actually goes ahead with his plans and replaces long standing career civil servants with Trump lackeys. And still the GOP let him away with it.

Well trump left lots of the government understaffed so him dismantling it shouldn’t take long. Biden was going to have to rebuild lots of stuff anyway so what’s a bit more on top of what he has to do.

Quin_Dub

looksee wrote: »

Trump appears to be in the process of dismantling the Civil Service, so Biden will have an almost impossible task if Trump actually goes ahead with his plans and replaces long standing career civil servants with Trump lackeys. And still the GOP let him away with it.

They are in lock step with him on this.

They care only about Power - So, just as they refused to sign any covid relief deals , they are happy to let Trump gut the Civil service so that Bidens job is made difficult if not impossible next year.

At 12:01 on January 20th , the GOP will suddenly care about deficits and Government efficiency etc. etc. etc. and will scream away as if the last 4 years never happened.

aloyisious

The way Powell and her lawyerly companion are supporting the sitting GOP senators running for re-election in Georgia makes one wish it was now 04th Jan 2021 so the U.S could start getting better Govt from the 05th Jan 2021 onwards. The fact that 2 lawyers who claim to support the GOP and its president are loose in Georgia telling GOP voters there NOT to vote in the senate run-off elections on the 05th Jan in the sure knowledge those voters would only vote for the GOP senators sounds strange but it's not fake news.

Gunmonkey

Quin_Dub wrote: »

They are in lock step with him on this.

They care only about Power - So, just as they refused to sign any covid relief deals , they are happy to let Trump gut the Civil service so that Bidens job is made difficult if not impossible next year.

At 12:01 on January 20th , the GOP will suddenly care about deficits and Government efficiency etc. etc. etc. and will scream away as if the last 4 years never happened.

And once they get the death tally from Covid on Jan 21st, they will be screaming at Biden "How can you let this happen? Youre meant to be President! Have you been asleep at the wheel your whole presidency or something?"

Capt'n Midnight

Gunmonkey wrote: »

And once they get the death tally from Covid on Jan 21st, they will be screaming at Biden "How can you let this happen? Youre meant to be President! Have you been asleep at the wheel your whole presidency or something?"

One person out every thousand in the USA has died or will die soon from Covid-19.

On Trump's watch.

rosser44

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

One person out every thousand in the USA has died or will die soon from Covid-19.

On Trump's watch.

Trump has killed more Americans than the North Koreans, the VC and the taliban put together, yet his clapping seals still think he's a hero.

What a bunch of clowns.

paul71

The unfortunate fact is a lot more Americans will die of Covid, the rate of death is accelerating fast and it will not be under control soon, many will die during Bidens first months.

prawnsambo

paul71 wrote: »

The unfortunate fact is a lot more Americans will die of Covid, the rate of death is accelerating fast and it will not be under control soon, many will die during Bidens first months.

Even if they go the rate of infection to just flatten right now, the death rate will continue to ramp up for at least another three weeks. It's absolutely terrifying to see this level of avoidable death.

looksee

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Well trump left lots of the government understaffed so him dismantling it shouldn’t take long. Biden was going to have to rebuild lots of stuff anyway so what’s a bit more on top of what he has to do.

Apparently it is not as simple as just swapping everyone back again, the suggestion seems to be that this is so unprecedented that it will require more than just a signature to undo it.

Meanwhile Biden needs to hit the ground running to deal with Covid, the economy, and international relations, not waste time messing with sorting out the civil service - in some cases the heads of departments are already Trump appointees/lackeys and are enthusiastically making up lists of people who can be sacked - people who are career CSs and have served though numerous presidencies.

Carfacemandog

9/11/2001 attack deaths: 2,977
12/03/2020 covid deaths: 2,918

They'll likely manage to surpass that figure (and 3k) by the end of today.

aloyisious

The DOJ banned Heidi Stirrup, a White House staffer and friend of Steve Miller liaison-working in the Dept, from the Dept building within the past two weeks after it learned she was trying to access insider information on the FBI investigation into the alleged massive vote-fraud President Trump campaign is insistent happened. It wouldn't be idle speculation to think Trump and Barr talked about the banning of Heidi from the DOJ.

After her being banned, a spot was found for Heidi on the Board of Visitors to the U.S Air Force Academy. From the USAFA link below, the board coincidentally last met on 18 Nov 2020. The link provides details of what the board does in respect to the academy. The next scheduled board meeting is in March/April.

https://www.usafa.edu/about/bov/

robinph

looksee wrote: »

Apparently it is not as simple as just swapping everyone back again, the suggestion seems to be that this is so unprecedented that it will require more than just a signature to undo it.

Meanwhile Biden needs to hit the ground running to deal with Covid, the economy, and international relations, not waste time messing with sorting out the civil service - in some cases the heads of departments are already Trump appointees/lackeys and are enthusiastically making up lists of people who can be sacked - people who are career CSs and have served though numerous presidencies.

But Biden has been one step away from the job 4 years ago, knows how the system actually works and can surround himself with competent people who know what they are doing. Shouldn't be too hard to hire back any civil servants that get kicked out in the next month after they have an extended Christmas break and they won't have forgotten that much about what they were doing before.

check_six

prawnsambo wrote: »

Even if they go the rate of infection to just flatten right now, the death rate will continue to ramp up for at least another three weeks. It's absolutely terrifying to see this level of avoidable death.

It's horrific right now at 200,000 infections being detected per day and I don't think that includes the inevitable Thanksgiving Day spike yet. It's mindbending that the daily death toll is being reported as close to 3000 as this is probably a low estimate due to the suppression of figures the White House was encouraging earlier this year.

Yet man's attitude was always completely dismissive of the whole crisis bordering on being bored of it. Then he got the virus, recovered, and then declared the crisis over based on the fact that he was now grand.

I'll never understand how his supporters ever thought that he gave a damn about anyone other than himself. Was it just that he hated the same out groups as they did? Was it all just hate?

Leroy42

check_six wrote: »

I'll never understand how his supporters ever thought that he gave a damn about anyone other than himself. Was it just that he hated the same out groups as they did? Was it all just hate?

Well, its not all outright hate. A very large portion of those that voted for Trump would be GOP'ers, they would vote for a dead turkey rather than vote Democrat.

One could argue that it is lead by a hatred of democrats but it I don't think that is the hatred you allude to.

But there is little doubt that, particularly in 2020, many of the votes that Trump received must be put down to hatred. In 2016 it was argued that HC was simply too terrible a person to even contemplate voting for. That Bengazi, Bill, her being a war monger, Ukraine Uranium etc was simply too much to allow people to vote for her and they simply had no choice but to either abstain or vote for the only alternative.

Noone of that holds up in 2020 (in truth it never did) and it was clear from pretty much the beginning of his term that Trump was never going to deliver and was in many instances far worse than HC was ever accused of being.

So with all that stripped back, the only thing left is that people are voting out of hatred, and I guess fear.

aloyisious

robinph wrote: »

But Biden has been one step away from the job 4 years ago, knows how the system actually works and can surround himself with competent people who know what they are doing. Shouldn't be too hard to hire back any civil servants that get kicked out in the next month after they have an extended Christmas break and they won't have forgotten that much about what they were doing before.

Plus they [civil service] had 8 years experience working for/with him and know the reality of that compared with Trump. The same might apply with more amenable people to deals in both chambers after Trump is gone. Looking at the Defence Funding bill in passage [which looks like the Senate will pass after getting a majority from both sides to over-ride Trump's threatened veto] as an example of how presently deals can be done, more so in the new year when clutter is cleared from the senate due to retirements. The bill harms Trump's "recall troops from Germany" plan and gives the Ok for renaming US military bases like Fort Hood while ignoring Trump's desire to revoke Media management freedom to moderate what is posted on public media platforms.

looksee

robinph wrote: »

But Biden has been one step away from the job 4 years ago, knows how the system actually works and can surround himself with competent people who know what they are doing. Shouldn't be too hard to hire back any civil servants that get kicked out in the next month after they have an extended Christmas break and they won't have forgotten that much about what they were doing before.

I am going on this article https://edition.cnn.com/2020/12/03/politics/trump-potential-purge-job-protections-career-government-employees/index.html which granted has a lot of 'could's and 'may's in it, and we have got very used to bald statements of absolute 'fact', but it does seem that it is not as simple as throwing out the new appointees and reinstating the previous ones.

In October the union filed a lawsuit to try to stop the action.
Multiple legal experts told CNN that Trump's executive order will likely be hard for President-elect Joe Biden to undo quickly should it be fully implemented before he takes office January 20, due to its unprecedented nature.
While Biden may be able to get rid of the order, there will likely be a lengthy series of steps he will have to take to rehire employees. Complicating things further is the unknown of what Trump will do with the agency vacancies should he decide to fire tens of thousands of career officials during the last days of his administration. If he replaces those officials with loyalists, the effort to bring back civil servants will have an extra wrinkle, as the Biden administration will have to decide how to handle those employees.

aloyisious

looksee wrote: »

I am going on this article https://edition.cnn.com/2020/12/03/politics/trump-potential-purge-job-protections-career-government-employees/index.html which granted has a lot of 'could's and 'may's in it, and we have got very used to bald statements of absolute 'fact', but it does seem that it is not as simple as throwing out the new appointees and reinstating the previous ones.

It might be worthwhile going after Trumps agents in the Admin with malfeasance charges [deliberate sabotage of the public service with the intent to wreck the ongoing administration of the union] when the new Admin comes into office and getting them to turn on each other and give states evidence on the person at the top of the chain. Trump wont be able to provide pardons for everyone in his crew before he leaves office.

kowloon

aloyisious wrote: »

Trump wont be able to provide pardons for everyone in his crew before he leaves office.

The little guys maybe can't meet his price for a pardon.

Leroy42

aloyisious wrote: »

It might be worthwhile going after Trumps agents in the Admin with malfeasance charges [deliberate sabotage of the public service with the intent to wreck the ongoing administration of the union] when the new Admin comes into office and getting them to turn on each other and give states evidence on the person at the top of the chain. Trump wont be able to provide pardons for everyone in his crew before he leaves office.

But if he gives pardons to some aren't they clear of potential issues whether people give up the dirt or not?

Windmill100000

Leroy42 wrote: »

But if he gives pardons to some aren't they clear of potential issues whether people give up the dirt or not?

Good question. There has to be protocol to stop abuse of power.

Personally I can't wait for all the dirt on Trump to come out and it will. He's not the brightest, he will be caught out. It's going to be epic.

Leroy42

Windmill100000 wrote: »

Good question. There has to be protocol to stop abuse of power.

I really doubt there is. Unless it is actually in the constitution then Trump will push on, and we know that neither the GOP of the SCOTUS will stop him.

salmocab

Leroy42 wrote: »

But if he gives pardons to some aren't they clear of potential issues whether people give up the dirt or not?

Well if crimes were committed I’d say it’s unlikely they’d all be federal. Although until there’s any real information I think there’s not really much to talk about.

StringerBell

He can pardon who he wants really but the wording in the Constitution is important imo - it is not typical language to say someone can grant something to themselves, you grant things to others. There is also the bit about the President 'shall' uphold the laws. It doesn't matter initially anyway, I have no doubt he will pardon himself before he leaves office (I'm not sure he will be smart enough to just resign and let Pence do it which will make it a lock) and then if there are charges going to be brought against him at a Federal level you will see the pardon argued before the SC.

You can end up in a situation where he pardons himself before leaving office and crows about it as there would be nothing to challenge it straight away you would imagine, or worthy of the challenge I mean but further down the line they may decide they need to bring a Federal indictment for something on him and he will have to defend that pardon in the SC and it will be an interesting one to watch play out for me. I can see it falling apart as it legitimately holds the President above the law which is directly against the Constitution.

If you have a directive that says an President cannot be indicted while in office, and you have the power to absolve yourself of all liability to pay for your crimes before leaving office you are in fact above the law.