What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Trouser Snake

No time for economic travellers, great respect for honest workers, irrespective of anything.

Wibbs

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

if there was no free housing, dole etc I would stake my life on it that less would come

Oh you can be sure. I went to school back in the 80's with a chap who came here as a refugee. His dad had sought sanctuary here when we were in the poo economically. Sending his family head of him too...

It's no shock that the majority came during the celtic tiger and when the birth passport loophole was in play. The vast majority of whom today from the same source countries would be refused. Nearly 100%. Not just from Black African nations either in case pearls are sought out to be clutched.

Wibbs

Trouser Snake wrote: »

No time for economic travellers, great respect for honest workers, irrespective of anything.

+1 I'd add who come here legally.

enricoh

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

if there was no free housing, dole etc I would stake my life on it that less would come

I wonder do many head for a connecting flight to albania instead once they hit europe!
This scam is going on 20 years n there's not one journalist or politician in this country saying a word about it!

Hamachi

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is result of a combination of thier colonial history, and where they are situated geographically.

Ireland is culturally and geographically closer to the UK - and I believe that multiculturalism in Ireland will follow the same path here as it has done in the UK.

Namely, the white working class at the bottom of the social ladder are gradually overtaken by motivated migrants.
I have no issue with that.

You mean that same colonial history that they share with the UK? Your comment around the geographical location of Western European countries is nonsensical.

The UK isn’t exactly a template for multiculturalism that we should be emulating. Which ethnic groups occupy the most socially deprived boroughs of London like Newham and Brent? What demographics are most heavily involved in knife- and gun-related crime? Which ethnic groups are massively over-represented in prison settings? Why has there been enormous levels of white flight from London since 2001? Forgive me if I have no desire to follow our neighbors blindly down that rabbit hole.

Whether you have an issue with it or not, your statement isn’t factually correct. Certainly many East Asians and Indians have overtaken a subset of the indigenous population. The Ugandan Asians are a prime example. However, if you believe that the Bengalis in Tower Hamlets or the Afro-Caribbeans in many parts of south London are thriving economically, you are deluded and living in cloud cuckoo land.

The Covid-induced recession that we are likely to experience for years to come will have a throttling effect on inward migration streams to Ireland. Sorry to disappoint you, but your multicultural utopian bubble is likely to be pricked by the harsh realities of economic constraints.

gormdubhgorm

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually you did.

Not true where did I say it would go magically well I merely described two reasons why people migrant - one economically and the other to escape a country where it is impossible to live a normal live.

Not the biggest social welfare supports in western Europe? Odd, give a larger proportion are on such supports.

Most people are not going to stay on welfare supports ad infinitum. Most would not want to ape families of Irish people who have generations of unemployed.

Your one track mind with Irish aside, you really think pointing to race relations and racial divides in the UK is a good thing to point to? Never mind that Ireland is not England in so many ways, subtle and not so subtle.

Ireland is like England in so many ways. To a Spanish student learning English there is not much difference for example.
Plus the fact that a lot of your fears seem to stem from the same fears people in the UK parrot further shows the similarity.

Other than yet again the usual "oh what are you afraid of" stuff, the entire list of positives put forth - and as I have said this genuinely surprised me - are Exotic food, exotic people(non White), diversity with no explanation, "cosmopolitan" with no explanation, paying our pensions(yet currently were paying more into their social welfare and DP running in the many hundreds of millions). That's it pretty much. If we ignore the deflection and insult of course.

So do you see positives or don't you?

Again with Irish language. No dissonance required. Put it another way this diversity you speak of(though not quite the right sort) has exposed the Irish language to view as far as the vast majority of Irish people regard it. As cultural window dressing, ah sure it'd be terrible to lose it, but the cupla focal rarely escapes their lip service. There are more fluent Polish speakers than fluent Irish speakers in Ireland today. Why? Because Polish is still a language of commerce, education and general utility, Irish lost that well over a century ago. Sad yes, but it's how languages can die.
See above.

I agree and you are a contributor of its death.

Japan is not cosmopolitan? China isn't?... Jesus.

It was another poster who said that Japan was not cosmopolitan.
Personally I view the word in linguistic and cultural sense.

And as for difficult languages to learn... Have you the foggiest notion how hard and often daft English is and how hard it can be to learn for somebody from say China?

English is the lingua franca of the world which necessitates all non-native speakers to learn it. Whether they like it or not. As it means economic and social progression.

Didn't stop the Chinese diaspora from being the richest on the planet. Spanish for example is significantly more logical. For all your protestations about Irish and perfidious Albion's influence on our language today, you appear to have little clue about English, well why would you it's your native language. And that's going to go over well....

Now you seem to be panicking and talking to yourself in the same paragraph.
A cultural man like yourself using flowery language such as "perfidious Albion" to describe the UK.

In an attempt to cloud the fact for all your huff and puff. You are one of those who has voluntarily lost thier native language, yet is against multiculturalism.
However, in your case it is much worse than most, because despite an education you have chosen to forgo a main tenet of Irish culture - the Irish language.
Yet simultaneously are vehemently against, a more multicultural Ireland.
Major hypocrisy in my view.

Hamachi

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Most people are not going to stay on welfare supports ad infinitum. Most would not want to ape families of Irish people who have generations of..

I’d love to see this assertion backed up by data. What % of native families are multi-generational welfare dependent? What % of immigrants are fully self-sufficient?

Given the decades-long experience of multiculturalism across continental Europe, can you point to hard data confirming that the immigrant population is less dependent on state support?

If not, your statement is unsubstantiated rubbish.

Justin Credible Darts

Hang on...first gormdubhgorm posts how dublin people viewing cork people is akin to the average irish person views immigrants.

Which of course is utter rubbish and just his opinion rather than actual fact.

But even if he was right, and the Irish are judgemental and dont like them immigrants, then surely increasing the numbers coming hereonly serve to irritate the average irish person who is the average tax payer and contradict his arguments.

He is all over the shop.

gormdubhgorm

Hamachi wrote: »

You mean that same colonial history that they share with the UK? Your comment around the geographical location of Western European countries is nonsensical.

It is not nonsensical as the Irish soccer team has proven England is the first port of call for the Irish.
The difference is Ireland was a colony and has both involuntarily and voluntarily lost its culture or being subsumed by the UK - despite the symbolism of nearly 100 years of freedom.

France, Germany, Italy and the UK were imperialist aggressors and many migrants return to the mother country.

Geography is very important in how successful a country is Marshall explained in his book

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Prisoners-Geography-Everything-Global-Politics/dp/1783961414

The UK isn’t exactly a template for multiculturalism that we should be emulating. Which ethnic groups occupy the most socially deprived boroughs of London like Newham and Brent? What demographics are most heavily involved in knife- and gun-related crime? Which ethnic groups are massively over-represented in prison settings? Why has there been enormous levels of white flight from London since 2001? Forgive me if I have no desire to follow our neighbors blindly down that rabbit hole.

It will not be smooth sailing all the time, but to me the fact that white working classes in the UK remain those with the least social mobility/education speaks volumes.
Why are they still in that position?

White flight means those that can afford to and invariably want to better themselves

Whether you have an issue with it or not, your statement isn’t factually correct. Certainly many East Asians and Indians have overtaken a subset of the indigenous population. The Ugandan Asians are a prime example. However, if you believe that the Bengalis in Tower Hamlets or the Afro-Caribbeans in many parts of south London are thriving economically, you are deluded and living in cloud cuckoo land.

True, but why hold back migrants who want to better themselves because of some who don't. What are you going to do pick and chose?
What will the criteria be?

The Covid-induced recession that we are likely to experience for years to come will have a throttling effect on inward migration streams to Ireland. Sorry to disappoint you, but your multicultural utopian bubble is likely to be pricked by the harsh realities of economic constraints.

Recessions come and go. The world will return to its previous fluid nature planes, trains, boats.
You can't stop the inevitable cultures will travel physically.

Wibbs

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Most people are not going to stay on welfare supports ad infinitum. Most would not want to ape families of Irish people who have generations of unemployed.

You really despise the Irish working class. Or did they disappoint you by not speaking as Gaelige en masse?

Ireland is like England in so many ways. To a Spanish student learning English there is not much difference for example.

I can assure you that is most certainly not the case with Spaniards learning the english language.

Plus the fact that a lot of your fears seem to stem from the same fears people in the UK parrot further shows the similarity.

By your "logic" because my "fears" are the same in France, Holland, Germany, Sweden, Greece, Italy, I'm also similar to them?

So do you see positives or don't you?

That nebulous and oft contradictory that I listed as the example of how poor the pro side's positives are, you're doubling down and saying that's it?

I agree and you are a contributor of its death.

Oh sure, I'm to blame... :rolleyes: That's like claiming I'm a contributor to English just because I came out of the egg exposed to it. I didn't hear a scrap of Irish until I went to school. It was a "foreign" language to me, and turned out to be useless outside the school gates so even more "foreign".

Now you seem to be panicking and talking to yourself in the same paragraph.
A cultural man like yourself using flowery language such as "perfidious Albion" to describe the UK.

If you consider that well trodden phrase as flowery, sheesh.

gormdubhgorm

Hamachi wrote: »

I’d love to see this assertion backed up by data. What % of native families are multi-generational welfare dependent? What % of immigrants are fully self-sufficient?

Given the decades-long experience of multiculturalism across continental Europe, can you point to hard data confirming that the immigrant population is less dependent on state support?

If not, your statement is unsubstantiated rubbish.

I find in arguments such as these, when data is found - goalposts are moved.
Not going to research for nothing I fell into that trap before on other threads.
Never again!

I have found 'have you a source for that?' a common boards get out clause to try and muddy a point.

It normally means the poster does not want a source. But merely hopes to discredit the other poster.

Justin Credible Darts

The Irish language is a waste of time learning.

You are better of learning mandarin, spanish etc a language that would actually be useful and spoken by millions upon millions.

What do you need Irish for, unless applying for a job on tg4 or trying to impress people down the pub. In my opinion there is too much spent on that outdated language. Do even the gardai require it anymore ?

I am sure someone will come along and claim I have no heritage, or its our culture like a traveler claims something is their culture.
Its redundant. Scrap it in schools it has as much use or need than what religion class had when I suffered that nonsense long years ago.

Wibbs

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Geography is very important in how successful a country is Marshall explained in his book

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Prisoners-Geography-Everything-Global-Politics/dp/1783961414

The UK isn’t exactly a template for multiculturalism that we should be emulating.

Indeed, but which template should we be emulating? Which template in every single European or ex European colony muliticultiral nation on Earth should be used? Because I hate to break it to Marshall, there isn't a single one where the social problems associated with multiculturalism aren't in play and the darker the skin the more likely you are to be on the bottom rungs of society.

I find in arguments such as these, when data is found - goalposts are moved.
Not going to research for nothing I fell into that trap before on other threads.
Never again!

I have found 'have you a source for that?' a common boards get out clause to try and muddy a point.

It normally means the poster does not want a source. But merely hopes to discredit the other poster.

What it normally means is that the other poster doesn't have any sources and uses some excuse to back away. In other words you got nothing. Nice try though.

Well... I'm impressed with Biko's timing, because after he commented on the posting style of mass generalisations and lack of evidence to support claims by pro-multiculturalists, gormdubhgorm returns with.... mass generalisations and a decided lack of statistical evidence for his claims.

Hilarious.

Hamachi

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I find in arguments such as these, when data is found - goalposts are moved.
Not going to research for nothing I fell into that trap before on other threads.
Never again!

I have found 'have you a source for that?' a common boards get out clause to try and muddy a point.

It normally means the poster does not want a source. But merely hopes to discredit the other poster.

Translation: No such data exists. You’ve just made a sweeping generalization denigrating a cohort of the native population and glorifying immigrants based on precisely nothing.

The nearest thing I could find was a longitudinal study from the LSE, which found that EU and western-origin migrants contributed net +24 billion sterling to the UK exchequer. Meanwhile, non-western origin migrants were a net drain of -125 billion to the exchequer for the duration of the study.

Some immigrants do well. They do genuinely supersede your much maligned ‘working class’. However, many do not. Ireland should focus on attracting those migrants who have the potential to succeed, whilst ensuring that the barriers to entry remain high to those migrants who are likely to have high dependency rates.

gormdubhgorm

Wibbs wrote: »

You really despise the Irish working class. Or did they disappoint you by not speaking as Gaelige en masse?

No I despise the hypocrisy.
As many in the working class are against the foreigners and so on. Yet barring a few notable exceptions they let thier own culture withier away.
I have found in my experience that most working class Irish who against multiculturalism. Is because of thier own lack of education.
Plus they compensate to try and be seen to be Irish by being anti foreigner

I can assure you that is most certainly not the case with Spaniards learning the english language.

Not true in my experience they hear the English language and aping of English culture. Binge drinking, sky sports and British tv. Molly Malone is the height of it.

By your "logic" because my "fears" are the same in France, Holland, Germany, Sweden, Greece, Italy, I'm also similar to them?

Worse because you should know better.

That nebulous and oft contradictory that I listed as the example of how poor the pro side's positives are, you're doubling down and saying that's it?

You didn't answer my question and decided to pose a question of your own instead. It seems you just like to pontificate but not respond mostly

Oh sure, I'm to blame... :rolleyes: That's like claiming I'm a contributor to English just because I came out of the egg exposed to it. I didn't hear a scrap of Irish until I went to school. It was a "foreign" language to me, and turned out to be useless outside the school gates so even more "foreign".
If you consider that well trodden phrase as flowery, sheesh.

A condescending flippant response. Nothing new there.

I suppose you would be unwilling to articulate how you can view Irish as a 'foreign' language yet be apposed to multiculturalism?
Because by it's very nature you have let yourself see your own Irish culture as 'foreign'.
Which is precisely my point about it such a stance does not make sense.
If you view an important tenet of Irish culture as 'foreign' why be so anti multiculturalism?

Makes zero sense to me.

gormdubhgorm

Hamachi wrote: »

Translation: No such data exists. You’ve just made a sweeping generalization denigrating a cohort of the native population and glorifying immigrants based on precisely nothing.

This is the boards tactic you see - no source = not true :rolleyes:
No opinions allowed to be given.

After dealing with a poster called ***** (on another topic) and foolishly providing reams of sources time and time again. Only for more info to be requested each time - I learnt my lesson!

Hamachi

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It will not be smooth sailing all the time, but to me the fact that white working classes in the UK remain those with the least social mobility/education speaks volumes.
Why are they still in that position?

White flight means those that can afford to and invariably want to better themselves



True, but why hold back migrants who want to better themselves because of some who don't. What are you going to do pick and chose?
What will the criteria be?



Recessions come and go. The world will return to its previous fluid nature planes, trains, boats.
You can't stop the inevitable cultures will travel physically.

Again, more groundless assertions. Can you point to one paper that confirms definitively that the white, working class is the least socially mobile in the UK? Less socially mobile that those ghettoized in East and South London? MossSide? Your personal opinion is not fact..

Your comment on white flight shows how little you truly understand. Actually, most of the 750K white Londoners who have departed the capital are middle class. They’ve left primarily because many won’t countenance sending their children to hyper diverse public schools in London, where standards are bottom of the barrel.

Yes. We should absolutely pick and choose. We to admit those who have a skill set that is genuinely needed in Ireland and whose cultural background in not an anathema to a modern, European society.

We’ll see if the world returns to its previous state. It could be another decade before there is sufficient economic growth to merit further migration. It might give Ireland the space we need to try integrate the existing ~16% of the population born abroad.

Justin Credible Darts

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

No I despise the hypocrisy.
As many in the working class are against the foreigners and so on.

Really ?


Where is your proof or facts, stats or whatever that you base this on ?


I dont believe the average working person has a problem with "foreigners".
Speaking as someone married to a "foreigner" , its people like you spinning outright bullsh1t that does more damage than good.


The issue is the number of people coming here the country cannot afford to take.
We had countless nationalities in this country for decades, from Indians in the clothing business, chinese takeaways, countless nationalities in hospitals, etc and for you to make a bigoted claim the working class irish person dont like foreigners is a disgrace and a lie

Hamachi

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

This is the boards tactic you see - no source = not true :rolleyes:
No opinions allowed to be given.

After dealing with a poster called ***** (on another topic) and foolishly providing reams of sources time and time again. Only for more info to be requested each time - I learnt my lesson!

So it’s your personal opinion and not grounded in fact. Thanks for confirming.

As for your ‘critique’ of the working class, it’s pretty appalling. I’m from that background, albeit rural, and do not recognize any of your crudely drawn caricatures.

I’m not being funny, but have you ever reflected on where your vitriolic little rants against a group of fellow citizens originate? They are not the musings of a functioning member of Irish society..

gormdubhgorm

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

Really ?


Where is your proof or facts, stats or whatever that you base this on ?


I dont believe the average working person has a problem with "foreigners".
Speaking as someone married to a foreigner and in a mixed race marriage , its people like you spinning outright bullsh1t that does more damage than good.


The issue is the number of people coming here the country cannot afford to take.
We had countless nationalities in this country for decades, from Indians in the clothing business, chinese takeaways, countless nationalities in hospitals, etc and for you to make a bigoted claim the working class irish person dont like foreigners is a disgrace and a lie

It is not a lie just honest.
Personal experience.

Comments like
"Foreigners coming here taking our jobs and so on."

You have never heard anyone say that what background do you think they were from?

I am not saying all working class people are against foreigners. But it is where the resentment simmers. Anyone with ears and eyes can see and hear it.

gormdubhgorm

Hamachi wrote: »

So it’s your personal opinion and not grounded in fact. Thanks for confirming.

As for your ‘critique’ of the working class, it’s pretty appalling. I’m from that background, albeit rural, and do not recognize any of your crudely drawn caricatures.

I’m not being funny, but have you ever reflected on where your vitriolic little rants against a group of fellow citizens originate? They are not the musings of a functioning member of Irish society..

I am just being honest and comes from personal experience and observations.
It is just a fact of life those at the bottom end of Irish society are by and large the ones who fear multiculturalism.
It is just a fact plenty of sources on it.

Justin Credible Darts

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is not a lie just honest.
Personal experience.

Comments like
"Foreigners coming here taking our jobs and so on."

You have never heard anyone say that what background do you think they were from?

I am not saying all working class people are against foreigners. But it is where the resentment simmers. Anyone with ears and eyes can see and hear it.

I wrote on here a few days ago about a woman I knew who once complained about foreigners coming here and taking all the jobs.
The same woman had 2 lazy offspring on the dole.


I asked her would her kids work in McDonalds and do the jobs they do, and she went silent. I can assure you people like her that hate foreigners are very much in the minority.


You think otherwise ? Thats fine, its your opinion, which you are entitled to have, but you act like it is some sort of fact that cannot be challenged.




Maybe I associate with different people to you, as I find most people have no issues with a hard working person, whatever their sex, color, creed, religion etc.


You seems to despise the Irish working class, you know the same working class that is paying the tax that keeps the country.

Hamachi

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Comments like
"Foreigners coming here taking our jobs and so on."

You have never heard anyone say that what background do you think they were from?

Personally, I’ve heard people from all sorts of backgrounds express reservations about the levels of inward migration to Ireland.

In fact, the one vote that the Irish public has had on migration-related policy was very insightful. The people of Dun Laoghaire / Rathdown, the most affluent and socially liberal constituency in the country, voted 71% in favor of closing the jus soli citizenship loophole. Shocking stuff indeed.

gormdubhgorm

Hamachi wrote: »

Personally, I’ve heard people from all sorts of backgrounds express reservations about the levels of inward migration to Ireland.

In fact, the one vote that the Irish public has had on migration-related policy was very insightful. The people of Dun Laoghaire / Rathdown, the most affluent and socially liberal constituency in the country, voted 71% in favor of closing the jus soli citizenship loophole. Shocking stuff indeed.

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I wrote on here a few days ago about a woman I knew who once complained about foreigners coming here and taking all the jobs.
The same woman had 2 lazy offspring on the dole.


I asked her would her kids work in McDonalds and do the jobs they do, and she went silent. I can assure you people like her that hate foreigners are very much in the minority.


You think otherwise ? Thats fine, its your opinion, which you are entitled to have, but you act like it is some sort of fact that cannot be challenged.




Maybe I associate with different people to you, as I find most people have no issues with a hard working person, whatever their sex, color, creed, religion etc.


You seems to despise the Irish working class, you know the same working class that is paying the tax that keeps the country.

Well an ESRI (2013) report has stated:

https://www.esri.ie/news/irish-attitudes-to-immigrants-become-more-negative

Highly-educated groups in Ireland have more positive attitudes to immigrants and immigration: lower-educated groups are less positive.

--
--

Ok you might get exceptions' but those who are of lower education are normally from working class socio-economic demographics.

Hamachi

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I am just being honest and comes from personal experience and observations.
It is just a fact of life those at the bottom end of Irish society are by and large the ones who fear multiculturalism.
It is just a fact plenty of sources on it.

No it is not a fact. Review the results of the 2004 vote on the 27th amendment. The results were pretty uniform across the country, regardless of social class or affluence.

Your blinkered view of reality means nothing. I might take you seriously if you dig up one of those plentiful sources confirming your assertion.

gormdubhgorm

Hamachi wrote: »

No it is not a fact. Review the results of the 2004 vote on the 27th amendment. The results were pretty uniform across the country, regardless of social class or affluence.

Your blinkered view of reality means nothing. I might take you seriously if you dig up one of those plentiful sources confirming your assertion.

see above

Justin Credible Darts

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Well an ESRI (2013) report has stated:

https://www.esri.ie/news/irish-attitudes-to-immigrants-become-more-negative

Highly-educated groups in Ireland have more positive attitudes to immigrants and immigration: lower-educated groups are less positive.

--
--

Ok you might get exceptions' but those who are of lower education are normally from working class socio-economic demographics.

wow educated person claiming educated people have more positive attitudes...imagine that.


If you are finding most of the "working class" around you are bigots like you claim, then maybe you should start associating with better people.



for the record, racism is not confined to the working class.
Education, money, area etc wont make a racist cease being a racist.

gormdubhgorm

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

wow educated person claiming educated people have more positive attitudes...imagine that.


If you are finding most of the "working class" around you are bigots like you claim, then maybe you should start associating with better people.



for the record, racism is not confined to the working class.
Education, money, area etc wont make a racist cease being a racist.

True, but the more education a person has it is likely they would be more tolerant.
Naturally there are exceptions.
But it is just fact of life.

Hamachi

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

see above

Ok. One report from the ESRI. Thanks for digging that out. One thing I will note is that the responses are self-attested. The middle class are more likely to moderate their responses given the prevailing climate.

For me, the citizenship referendum was the ultimate barometer. People voiced their position on the integrity of Irish citizenship from the privacy of the ballot box. The results returned by the middle and working classes were strikingly similar.