What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Posh Dave

Sand wrote: »

In fairness, they cant integrate. The Irish are a European, broadly Christian people. How are non-Europeans supposed to integrate? By abandoning their own culture and beliefs? That's never going to happen.

Countless countries have attempted multiculturalism under the guise of imperialism, or communism or neoliberalism and all have failed. It can be temporarily held together by top down tyranny as practiced by the imperialists, communists and increasingly neo-liberalism as in the UK. But it has always ended up with the country splitting apart into much more segregated successor states

The failure of multiculturalism is not that its a good idea poorly executed, or that it could work with the right migrants, or it could work if they arrived legally, or it could work under some imagined set of conditions. It's just a bad idea.

Agreed

shootermacg

shootermacg wrote: »

The only real way to increase the standard of living in Ireland is to increase the population.

Actually, that's not true. We could reduce the amount of money spent on unnecessary gestures which don't help Irish people. By decreasing spending on unnecessary expenditures, taxes could be lowered on goods, thereby increasing the spending power of the consumer, which in turn, could give us a boost to revenue. Oh, don't get me wrong, some contributions to foreign Aid should be done (although the actual value of doing so is dubious in the extreme).

By reinvesting revenue into the economy, by boosting the spending power of Irish consumers, you stimulate the local markets, and thus increase the demand for small/medium sized companies to meet those demands... (It would also decrease the needs of those on the lower income brackets because they could afford more with the income they have) [Think of how S.Korea, or many of the Arab nations boost their revenue by encouraging citizen spending... there's weaknesses to relying on such a system, but added to the overall economic model.. it would work fine.]

Or you can spend loads of money on immigrants, costly gestures to the EU/UN, etc. And then tax the population, rely on EU interventions, and delve into national debt when things go wrong.

A larger population, in a modern setting, simply increases costs because there is greater strain on services that are already stretched with our current population. If anything, Ireland, as a services and technology type economy, should be seeking to maintain it's existing population, and not expand any further..

stefanovich

Sand wrote: »

In fairness, they cant integrate. The Irish are a European, broadly Christian people. How are non-Europeans supposed to integrate? By abandoning their own culture and beliefs? That's never going to happen.

Hindus and Sikhs in the UK have integrated beautifully

Justin Credible Darts

stefanovich wrote: »

Hindus and Sikhs in the UK have integrated beautifully

as have buddists, jews, atheists etc.


odd how its only the muslims

Wibbs

shootermacg wrote: »

The only real way to increase the standard of living in Ireland is to increase the population.

No it really isn't and that notion is almost entirely driven by large corporate economic interests. IE more people means more people consuming. It's a nonsense even with the merest enquiry.

Wibbs

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

as have buddists, jews, atheists etc.


odd how its only the muslims

It's not. You hear precious little about problems with say Malay Muslims. The issues are cultural and religion is only a part of that, more often than not hijacked to a particular culture's needs.

KevRossi

shootermacg wrote: »

The only real way to increase the standard of living in Ireland is to increase the population.

Pay people better, ensure that they have a decent disposable income, and the standard of living goes up.

Look at the mean disposable income wage in Ireland in 1990 and compare it to 2000 or 2005. Big difference and no coincidence that our economy took off at the same time.

Sand

stefanovich wrote: »

Hindus and Sikhs in the UK have integrated beautifully

How are you measuring that? I know Sikhs are often held up as the "good" immigrants vs Muslims as the "bad" immigrants. But does that hold up?

If a Sikh marries a non-Sikh, they have to hire security to protect the ceremony from protestors. As you can see in the story, its the same old themes about the 1st generation wanting to keep the head down and work, 2nd generation trying to define themselves by their ethnic identity.

A big deal was made out the fact that more British Muslims were fighting for ISIS a few years back than were serving in the British Army. As far as I know there is just 150 Sikhs in the British Army, so they're underrepresented there vs the general population. There was talks about forming an ethnic Sikh Regiment which indicated there was a view the under representation could be resolved by appeals to ethnic identity, rather than British identity.

The lack of terrorism is great, but it's hardly a roaring success on that alone.

Sand

KevRossi wrote: »

Pay people better, ensure that they have a decent disposable income, and the standard of living goes up.

Look at the mean disposable income wage in Ireland in 1990 and compare it to 2000 or 2005. Big difference and no coincidence that our economy took off at the same time.

Yep, if anything mass migration undercuts workers bargaining for better pay. If huge population was all that was needed for economic prosperity then India would be a paradise.

Even to the extent a growing population is healthy (its certainly a requirement for the pension ponzi scheme) then the government should be pursuing policies to encourage the formation of families, having children, getting decent homes close to work etc. Mass migration instead diverts resources away from those goals.

biko

Why is it always the pro-immigration lads that post sweeping generalisations and never post sources.
It's like it's always feels and guesses with these guys.

jmreire

biko wrote: »

Why is it always the pro-immigration lads that post sweeping generalisations and never post sources.
It's like it's it always feels and guesses with these guys.

If the pro -immigrant lads actually went and lived in the country's these immigrant's are coming from for awhile, there would be far fewer of them. Most seem to be living in a kind of airy-fairy world of good intentions.

biko

biko wrote: »

Why is it always the pro-immigration lads that post sweeping generalisations and never post sources.
It's like it's it always feels and guesses with these guys.

Because reading up on all the research would make them realise just how messed up the whole thing is. Oh, it's easy to take the soundbites from reports, because they're generally designed to encourage the helping of migrants, but any serious effort to look deeper, and the serious problems inherent with immigration and multiculturalism are hard to ignore (hard, not impossible).

Sometimes you'll get posters supplying links or reports, but... rarely have they spent much time reviewing the reports themselves... or are willing to argue/defend the points within the report (should someone else provide a different report as a counter).

gormdubhgorm

I watched a few things based in the past on Ireland and Irish emigration.

Years ago, in Dublin people even had the same attitudes to migrants as today.
The only difference was they were asked what they thought of Cork people not asylum seekers / foreigners

A lot said they struggled to understand Cork people – mean, sly, cute, cunning.
Would not trust them etc.
But they are supposed to be a nice ‘race’ of people according to one person
But another said they take jobs on the Dublin people, and so have no time for them.
Sound familiar?
Replace Cork person with ‘Asylum seeker’ or ‘ Nigerian’ or foreigner’ and not much has changed.

I also saw this thing on the forgotten Irish in England.

Many of them old rural fellas.
It was said the Dubs survived better in England than the country lads because they were not as shy. More forward and a bit more educated and so on.
I was also struck by how a couple of the lads in it seemed like asylum seekers of today running away from pain and sorrow. Wanting to start a new life, because they were sexually abused in Irish industrial schools.
Plus I also noted how the Irish areas in England changed to Asian areas when the Irish became upwardly mobile.

I saw other items which is the nub of the Irish fear of multiculturalism. As a group which are most against multiculturalism are normally white Irish working classes, with low education.
In Britain/England it is white working-class people (males in particular) left behind in education and status.

https://www.battleofideas.org.uk/2018/session/the-left-behind-white-working-class-kids-and-education/

https://www.teachertoolkit.co.uk/2016/07/18/white-british/

But of course it is much easier for some Irish working class to blame migrants, rather than looking how they contributed to their own problems. Leaving school early and so on.

LostinBlanch

biko wrote: »

Why is it always the pro-immigration lads that post sweeping generalisations and never post sources.
It's like it's it always feels and guesses with these guys.

Or, when that fails they try and derail the thread with pointless whataboutery or inconsequential ramblings instead.Anything but argue their case because they know their arguments aren't strong enough to stand up to scrutiny.

Wibbs

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I watched a few things based in the past on Ireland and Irish emigration/Replace Cork person with ‘Asylum seeker’ or ‘ Nigerian’ or foreigner’ and not much has changed.

So you've basically illustrated the clannish nature of human beings in general and that "not much has changed" and you reckon bringing in people who are even more different is going to magically go well?

I was also struck by how a couple of the lads in it seemed like asylum seekers of today running away from pain and sorrow. Wanting to start a new life, because they were sexually abused in Irish industrial schools.

and here come the violins and the near constantly regurgitated "the Irish were immigrants once". Fine for the feels, not so much for the observable and demonstrable realities.


And here comes another revisited trope:

I saw other items which is the nub of the Irish fear of multiculturalism. As a group which are most against multiculturalism are normally white Irish working classes, with low education.
In Britain/England it is white working-class people (males in particular) left behind in education and status.

Yep, only the undereducated thick working class Whites tend to have a problem and the oh so erudite middle class and educated tend not to. Firstly; for a start the middle classes aren't nearly so exposed to the problems and divisions that multiculturalism brings beyond tut tutting in leafy suburbia. A large proportion of migrants, some demographics more than others, tend to move into the same working class areas.

Secondly; you talk about a lack of education keeping some of the White working class down, but you want to risk importing more undereducated people because they're Brown? Even though in every single multicultural society on the planet those folks are more likely to be under educated and under employed? And yes for those in the cheap seats a lot of that is racism, but that's not exactly going away. You're basically saying let's import a more diverse underclass. Yeah that's logical alright.

Thirdly; if the pro diversity folks are so well educated and erudite how come vanishingly few have debated on this thread putting forward a halfway convincing argument? How come the same well educated types are far more quick to double down on insult and deflection because their arguments fail, and they know it?

But of course it is much easier for some Irish working class to blame migrants, rather than looking how they contributed to their own problems. Leaving school early and so on.

Fair enough, but be careful with that line of argument with non White demographics, because you'll be hauled over the coals for "victim blaming".

Justin Credible Darts

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I watched a few things based in the past on Ireland and Irish emigration.

Years ago, in Dublin people even had the same attitudes to migrants as today.
The only difference was they were asked what they thought of Cork people not asylum seekers / foreigners.

Enlighten me, if the Irish are like what you claim, how does bringing in thousands more poor immigrants change things ?

gormdubhgorm

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

Enlighten me, if the Irish are like what you claim, how does bringing in thousands more poor immigrants change things ?

It makes Ireland a cosmopolitan society. Economic migrants on the whole work harder than those at the lowest rung of the native population.
More open to innovation and adaption. History has proven this time and time again.

The French Huguenots in Ireland, the Jewish community in Ireland etc.
Portobello in Dublin was once known as little Jerusalem as Jews from Eastern Europe came to Ireland.

Wibbs

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It makes Ireland a cosmopolitan society. Economic migrants on the whole work harder than those at the lowest rung of the native population.
More open to innovation and adaption. History has proven this time and time again.

The French Huguenots in Ireland, the Jewish community in Ireland etc.
Portobello in Dublin was once known as little Jerusalem as Jews from Eastern Europe came to Ireland.

I'm afraid that is not close to true for all demographics of migrants and this is also true throughout history, especially recent history. Some migrant populations work harder and excel financially and educationally. East Asians the obvious one. Like you note above Jews another. Indians do well too.

However and again please point out any multicultural European nation where the darker your skin doesn't mean you're likely to be lower on the socioeconomic rung than natives. I'll give you a hint; there isn't one. The poorest parts of France, Holland, Sweden, Germany and so forth are far more likely to be Brown and Black than White or Yellow.

And there are many reasons for that, not least racism as I said(and not just going one way and it's not as if Jews and Asians are exactly immune to racism), but decade after decade across many different nations and cultures it seems it's largely an intractable problem. One which only after two decades of "diversity" and small numbers in Ireland we're already seeing.

"Cosmopolitan" sounds great, but it actually means little enough and we can be cosmopolitan without importing large numbers of non EU people into this country. Do you think Japan is lacking in "cosmopolitan", or China, or Cameroon? Or are the over 100,000 French, Spanish, German, Dutch, English, Scottish, Polish, Latvian, Swedish etc living in this country not the right kind of cosmopolitan? It does seem so and again we're back to this need for the more "exotic".

gormdubhgorm

Wibbs wrote: »

So you've basically illustrated the clannish nature of human beings in general and that "not much has changed" and you reckon bringing in people who are even more different is going to magically go well?

Never said that. It is like anything else some people will be dicks some won't.
But on the whole migrants want to work and come to Ireland for opportunity or escaping misery.

and here come the violins and the near constantly regurgitated "the Irish were immigrants once". Fine for the feels, not so much for the observable and demonstrable realities.

I suggest you watch the video plenty of reality in it and very pertinent to this thread. Not a violin in sight.

And here comes another revisited trope:

Yep, only the undereducated thick working class Whites tend to have a problem and the oh so erudite middle class and educated tend not to. Firstly; for a start the middle classes aren't nearly so exposed to the problems and divisions that multiculturalism brings beyond tut tutting in leafy suburbia. A large proportion of migrants, some demographics more than others, tend to move into the same working class areas.

It is not a trope it is back up by a myriad of statistical facts in the UK.
A quick internet search will enlighten you.
Whether you like it or not that is the way Ireland will end up similar to the UK.
Particularly as most in Ireland speak English it is yet another attraction

Secondly; you talk about a lack of education keeping some of the White working class down, but you want to risk importing more undereducated people because they're Brown? Even though in every single multicultural society on the planet those folks are more likely to be under educated and under employed? And yes for those in the cheap seats a lot of that is racism, but that's not exactly going away. You're basically saying let's import a more diverse underclass. Yeah that's logical alright.

Not true that all migrants will be undereducated I have already given examples of that on this thread. Also even some are, many will have a far more determination to succeed than the native working class Irish. As it will be a chance at life and improvement.

Thirdly; if the pro diversity folks are so well educated and erudite how come vanishingly few have debated on this thread putting forward a halfway convincing argument? How come the same well educated types are far more quick to double down on insult and deflection because their arguments fail, and they know it?

Plenty have however you seem to have your mind made up and do not wish to even countenance the prospect of a multicultural Ireland. I suppose you have to ask yourself what are you afraid of?

Because as I already said on this thread many who shout the loudest against multiculturalism in Ireland. Already voluntarily lost, or are blaise, or don't care about a major part of thier Irish culture - namely the Irish language. Yet I am just supposed to ignore the major contradiction, and cognitive dissonance?

Ironically as I have I already said it is migrants I have found who are more open to the Irish language. What does this say about the Irish people?

Yellow_Fern

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It makes Ireland a cosmopolitan society. Economic migrants on the whole work harder than those at the lowest rung of the native population.
More open to innovation and adaption. History has proven this time and time again.

The French Huguenots in Ireland, the Jewish community in Ireland etc.
Portobello in Dublin was once known as little Jerusalem as Jews from Eastern Europe came to Ireland.

Odd that you cite two groups that probably had higher levels of education than local Irish and then assumes a vastly larger group with less education will work fine here. It was more like Indians in Kenya than Algerians in France.

gormdubhgorm

Wibbs wrote: »

"Cosmopolitan" sounds great, but it actually means little enough and we can be cosmopolitan without importing large numbers of non EU people into this country. Do you think Japan is lacking in "cosmopolitan", or China, or Cameroon? Or are the over 100,000 French, Spanish, German, Dutch, English, Scottish, Polish, Latvian, Swedish etc living in this country not the right kind of cosmopolitan? It does seem so and again we're back to this need for the more "exotic".

Japan is not cosmopolitan for a main reason a difficult language to learn, same with Chinese. Plus there are not lot of countries who speak Japanese.
Like English, French, German for example.

Cameroon and countries similar will get cosmopolitan once the standard of living improves compared to Western Countries.
Might take 200 or 300 years who knows. But eventually poorer parts of the world will close the gap. As they become more urbanised and technically advanced.

I have no problem with 100,000 French, Spanish, German, Dutch, English, Scottish, Polish, Latvian, Swedish etc living in this country. As that is what the Irish people voted for in EU referendums.

Makes me wonder what you are afraid of?

gormdubhgorm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Odd that you cite two groups that probably had higher levels of education than local Irish and then assumes a vastly larger group with less education will work fine here. It was more like Indians in Kenya than Algerians in France.

It's a mixture some will be educated some won't. But many will have drive to succeed and better themselves.
I have no problem with anyone who has a bit of 'go' in them.

Hamachi

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It's a mixture some will be educated some won't. But many will have drive to succeed and better themselves.
I have no problem with anyone who has a bit of 'go' in them.

Can you quantify ‘many’? It’s certainly not the case across Western Europe. Look at the demographic who occupy the very bottom of the socioeconomic pyramids in Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium etc...

Hint: It’s not the indigenous white working class, a group that you seem absolutely determined to vilify.

Gervais08

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It's a mixture some will be educated some won't. But many will have drive to succeed and better themselves.
I have no problem with anyone who has a bit of 'go' in them.

You are either on w wind up or the most chronically naive and gullible person ever.

We have refugees that are not fleeing anything but lawful deportation from safe countries; vile mediaeval practices being carried out on tiny kids in small Irish towns and our own people expected to live hours away from work but there’s a plan to hand our housing to anyone here a wet weekend.

But you fall for the “they’re here to work and to pay our pensions” drivel. It’s only beaten to being the most completely pathetic view by the “lovely samosas in Castlebar tho ..”

gormdubhgorm

Hamachi wrote: »

Can you quantify ‘many’? It’s certainly not the case across Western Europe. Look at the demographic who occupy the very bottom of the socioeconomic pyramids in Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium etc...

Hint: It’s not the indigenous white working class, a group that you seem absolutely determined to vilify.

That is result of a combination of thier colonial history, and where they are situated geographically.

Ireland is culturally and geographically closer to the UK - and I believe that multiculturalism in Ireland will follow the same path here as it has done in the UK.

Namely, the white working class at the bottom of the social ladder are gradually overtaken by motivated migrants.
I have no issue with that.

Jump_In_Jack

Unfortunately we speak English after colonialism.
If only we spoke French!!

Edit:
I love the French

gormdubhgorm

Gervais08 wrote: »

You are either on w wind up or the most chronically naive and gullible person ever.

We have refugees that are not fleeing anything but lawful deportation from safe countries; vile mediaeval practices being carried out on tiny kids in small Irish towns and our own people expected to live hours away from work but there’s a plan to hand our housing to anyone here a wet weekend.

But you fall for the “they’re here to work and to pay our pensions” drivel. It’s only beaten to being the most completely pathetic view by the “lovely samosas in Castlebar tho ..”

So you make a large generalisation and imply that ALL:

"refugees that are not fleeing anything but lawful deportation from safe countries; vile mediaeval practices being carried out on tiny kids in small Irish towns and our own people expected to live hours away from work but there’s a plan to hand our housing to anyone here a wet weekend."

Ignoring migrants from Sudan and those whose lives were in danger in thier country of origin. Such as Abdullahi El-Tom who has been in Ireland since the 90's @1.58.

https://www.rte.ie/archives/2017/0609/881398-gaeilge-teanga-an-ghra/

Wibbs

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Never said that.

Actually you did.

But on the whole migrants want to work and come to Ireland for opportunity or escaping misery.

Not the biggest social welfare supports in western Europe? Odd, give a larger proportion are on such supports.

It is not a trope it is back up by a myriad of statistical facts in the UK.
A quick internet search will enlighten you.
Whether you like it or not that is the way Ireland will end up similar to the UK.
Particularly as most in Ireland speak English it is yet another attraction

Your one track mind with Irish aside, you really think pointing to race relations and racial divides in the UK is a good thing to point to? Never mind that Ireland is not England in so many ways, subtle and not so subtle.

Plenty have however you seem to have your mind made up and do not wish to even countenance the prospect of a multicultural Ireland. I suppose you have to ask yourself what are you afraid of?

Other than yet again the usual "oh what are you afraid of" stuff, the entire list of positives put forth - and as I have said this genuinely surprised me - are Exotic food, exotic people(non White), diversity with no explanation, "cosmopolitan" with no explanation, paying our pensions(yet currently were paying more into their social welfare and DP running in the many hundreds of millions). That's it pretty much. If we ignore the deflection and insult of course.

Because as I already said on this thread many who shout the loudest against multiculturalism in Ireland. Already voluntarily lost, or are blaise, or don't care about a major part of thier Irish culture - namely the Irish language. Yet I am just supposed to ignore the major contradiction, and cognitive dissonance?

Again with Irish language. No dissonance required. Put it another way this diversity you speak of(though not quite the right sort) has exposed the Irish language to view as far as the vast majority of Irish people regard it. As cultural window dressing, ah sure it'd be terrible to lose it, but the cupla focal rarely escapes their lip service. There are more fluent Polish speakers than fluent Irish speakers in Ireland today. Why? Because Polish is still a language of commerce, education and general utility, Irish lost that well over a century ago. Sad yes, but it's how languages can die.

Ironically as I have I already said it is migrants I have found who are more open to the Irish language. What does this say about the Irish people?

See above.

It's a mixture some will be educated some won't. But many will have drive to succeed and better themselves.

Yet the hard facts and stats make a liar of that hope. And that's all it is.

Japan is not cosmopolitan for a main reason a difficult language to learn, same with Chinese.

Japan is not cosmopolitan? China isn't?... Jesus. And as for difficult langauges to learn... Have you the foggiest notion how hard and often daft English is and how hard it can be to learn for somebody from say China? Didn't stop the Chinese diaspora from being the richest on the planet. Spanish for example is significantly more logical. For all your protestations about Irish and perfidious Albion's influence on our language today, you appear to have little clue about English, well why would you it's your native language. And that's going to go over well....

Wibbs

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Namely, the white working class at the bottom of the social ladder are gradually overtaken by motivated migrants.
I have no issue with that.

Jaysus...well if I were to go more towards some of the now banned muppets on the pro side and channel the cut price pop psychology into that statement I would have a field day.

Justin Credible Darts

if there was no free housing, dole etc I would stake my life on it that less would come