Provided chargers at shops

cannco253

A Leaf and an e-NIRO were waiting (in Galway) but a good mix of BEVs and PHEVs use the location. I'd say they were waiting at least 30 minutes, were there when I went into the shop and still there when I came out.

You get to know a lot of the owners after a while and everyone gets on fine, the chats have been welcome over the last 22 months. None of the PHEV owners have home chargers, at least the ones I've spoken to. No issues in getting these installed by local providers, I've been told why bother getting a charger at home when it's "free" at the retail park?

I'm sure when the latest bill comes in for energy cost things will change quickly.

AndyBoBandy

Free chargers are game ball, and anyone that can use them is entitled to use them, no problem there.

but......... that's assuming the car owner is availing of the (paid) services of the location in question.

If PHEV drivers are simply rocking up to get their 30km of 'free' range over a 3-4 hour period, and disappearing off home while the car is charging, then that's not on.n Same applies to BEV's. I once witnessed a Merc PHEV pulling into Lidl, plugging into the free AC, and the guy then walked off back up the town. Thats not on.

The solution is unfortunately probably no more free charging, as it'll just be abused. Or even a connection fee of say €2-€3 (an amount that makes it not worth while for PHEV's, but rather only BEV's, i.e. you initially pay for 15-20kW up front or something. an amount a BEV could easily take, but a PHEV would struggle to do so).

kanuseeme

Yes because the supermarket really cares about BEV's and not about selling groceries, in fact I would think that a small phev sucking up 1,50 euro of electricity once a week is worse than a Tesla sucking 15 euros worth, I would think it would be better to say get the first 8 kWh free, to make it worthwhile to plug in.

innrain

I think we should not expect anything for free. The reluctance of shops to install chargers is coming from this expectancy. Lets pay what are we due. If the shops are kind enough to discount some of it on their bills that is a different story. "Free" as in "not paying for' is not a concept of capitalism nor even socialism. It doesn't help users as some can abuse it and it doesn't provide meaningful feedback to owners. If they ask themselves how many of the charging sessions were from customers? they don't have an answer.

Personally if need to go to Lidl I have a choice of free AC or paid DC (5 mins further) and I will always choose paid DC. Charging while shopping should be an opportunistic thing and not make your go to charger. I imagine waiting 30 mins to start a slow charge is the definition of frustration in the dictionary.

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525644#Comment_118525644

I would say Lidl have detailed usage and cost info. They also would have person by person statistics based on easygo account. In newer store in Bray they installed pay DC charger. That's the future, not free ac

kanuseeme

How much does a DC charger installation cost compared to a 22kw AC? Who would it benefit? Local customers would be competing with people who have traveled from a distance to charge, they would be taken up a parking space and probably do next to no shopping considering they would only be stopping for 10 minutes.

A minimum fee, say 1 cent more than night rate electricity on the AC chargers would probably keep the EV drivers off them and keep them available for phevs, even the rapid chargers I would not mind as a new wave of phev's with CCS/chademo will be coming along.

In 3 years the duty on jap imports will be gone and at the moment a 2019 prius with 40 km range can be bought in japan for 15000 euro.

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526819#Comment_118526819

They do have a list of charging sessions but not cross referenced with customers. The fact that one car charged does not mean its driver shopped with them. If you pay using some customer points or scan the receipt to get some form of deduction they can make sure their customer benefit. Local DC charger would make me choose one shop over another. AC never.

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527345#Comment_118527345

I agree they can't confirm customer actually went into shop unless they trawl CCTV, which for research purposes they could do. However over and hour or two on AC or DC would indicate the person left the site or did shop but then sat in car and may have prevented another customer charging. In terms of cost DC is 15k to 50k, AC probably 1k per space. The real costs rise when the supply grid needs upgrading, which it probably would for multiple 50kW chargers. While the site basic supply might be ok, fridges consumption would be high in summer and older sites in more mature areas may not have the grid easily available with surplus. That could easily cost 100k, although load sharing with fridges and other chargers, maybe battery storage, would allow more and more chargers to be added until the grid upgrade could be justified.

It's not pennies but it's a great place for those with no home chargers to get a 30 minute fill on DC while they do the weekly shop. If the charger is pay and busy, and drives customers to the store, then it's a win win. It's like phones in hotels, they put them in to make money, it compliments their business model. Free WiFi is what their existing offering is, and homeless off the street abuse it.

Black_Knight

@kanuseeme How much does a DC charger installation cost compared to a 22kw AC?

EasyGo tritium 75kW units are €30k a pop. Shops can pay it all, and get most the charging revenue. Split it and get less charging revenue, or don't pay it and get less charging revenue. Not sure how ESB do payment, but they're looking at 200kW supplies going forward, so I guess that's either a 150kW + 50kW, or a single 200kW DC only unit. IMO the 200kW unit is a better option. More chance of being able to plug in with double plugs on each side. No AC charging blocking spaces (forecourts don't want spaces taken up for hours on end), and less parking spaces which need to be dedicated to charging.

IMO, standalone shops should be putting in DC units. 30 minutes of AC charging is nothing. Shopping centres should have AC units. DC units + a shopping centre only encourages people to abandon their car.

AndyBoBandy

It seems like EasyGo are slowly but surely doing what needs to be done in terms of DC charging at shops.. new Lidl's getting DC units, and hopefully more SuperValu's.

Hopefully they go back to the existing Lidl stores and pull out the AC units and replace with DC units... Even a 30kW DC unit is on average about 4 times better than having an AC.

Then all we need is eCars to rip out all those 22kW AC units and swap them to 44kW DC units.... (and put the removed AC units in train station carparks etc... or big shopping centre carparks ala Blanch or Mahon Point etc.... limiting them to 7kW), but alas they said no more new AC sites!! (which is fcuking bonkers, as AC absolutely has a place as destination charging).

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525644#Comment_118525644

Simple solution, either scan your shopping receipt on the charger or scan your charger card at the till in the shop. Whichever gets done knocks a set amount of kWh off the bill or allows a certain amount of free charging time

AndyBoBandy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530135#Comment_118530135

You pay for the charging as normal with app, and then use the same app to scan your shopping receipt within an hour of the end of the charging session to get either a reduced rate, or a complete rebate depending on spend.

Or better still align it with loyalty/clubcard apps, and use your club card points to pay for charging, or reduce the cost of charging...

innrain

There are ways. The question is how much the businesses want to get involved or all is just a green-washing exercise. More and more we can see chargers installed at new car park facilities due to the building regs. See Kildare village, Stillorgan Sc, Frascatti, the new Tesco in Rathfarnham, the refurbished carpark in Blanch just some from the top of my head. The question is how do they find these requirements? Do they find them as opportunities to attract customers or is just a hurdle. Because that might mean no maintenance, no parking enforcement.

Black_Knight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530039#Comment_118530039

EasyGo have a few drawbacks from what I hear.

1. They don't autotop up, so big chances of your session stopping if you run out of credit
2. The site shares power with the unit, so the unit could have to load balance with existing power to the shop/garage/hotel etc. They only work with the power available on site already.
3. The owner fronts the electricity bill, and EasyGo refund them the cost + their share of the spoils. I believe ESB install a new meter at their sites, so ESB bill themselves pretty much.
4. 75kW units are the best EasyGo can do, and as yet most of those are limited to 50kW from what i've seen.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530314#Comment_118530314

Why the added burden of an app? Mind you if it's just another method in addition to the ones I've suggested above then yeah why not

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530711#Comment_118530711

It's probably a greenwashing exercise. The lidl units are 22kW max so if they are used to their full capacity of 2 cars charging for 12 hours a day it's 528kWh (2*22*12) a day at the very very maximum. If they pay 20c a unit then €105 a day...

That's a drop in the ocean to a company like lidl and is probably lower than the cost of waste food at any particular store

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118531542#Comment_118531542

Because you're still charging when done shopping so you don't know how much to deduct at till and chargers are not that clever to scan the receipt. Have you seen &charge ? This is one example. Even shops without chargers participate.

ELM327

How about pay to charge for everyone and a 5% till discount if you show an active app charging outside. Pretty simple to add as it's just a button on the register and no change for the chargers. And freeloaders are discouraged. And cheapskates like me are encouraged more (as 5% on a weekly shop could be more than the cost of charging!)

the_amazing_raisin

Paid charging, overstay fee after 90 mins (big weekly shop could take a while if there's a queue). Could give loyalty points to anyone charging, and maybe a discounted rate for loyalty card users.

I think pretty much every supermarket chain except Aldi has a loyalty scheme

Gives an incentive for EV users to shop there rather than abandon the car, and stops freeloaders from abusing the chargers

cannco253

I see Aldi in Germany have started with paid charging after opening times at some locations, how long will it take for it to become common everywhere.

How easy would it be for a supermarket to just turn off the power to the chargers overnight and bring them back up in the morning? Would the extra stress this would put on the units make them more likely to fail and reduce any savings that might be made if they then need to be repaired?

Anyone have any idea roughly what a call out to fix a 22kW unit is?

slave1

Why turn off charge points overnight when it's a source of revenue once priced accordingly?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118559076#Comment_118559076

If a charger is free then yes they should be switched off (or begin charging) 2 hours after the shop closes and not turned on again until 2 hours before the shop reopens - remember you are given 2 hours parking at most of these locations

If you pay for charging then switching it off means you're making no money while your electricity costs are lower

cannco253

yep, I meant in the case if they were free to use. No problem with paid charging for after opening hours, as long as the charger is accessible and not locked away behind a gate.

Are there any "free" chargers here that are switched off after opening hours?

Black_Knight

Bit of an odd one. Cork Builders Providers are installing/have installed 2 AC sockets in their customer parking area. Unless it's workers who own an electric van and grab a burrito for lunch, I can't see many using it.

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118604650#Comment_118604650

Yea, that is a bit odd alright. If it was for their own use they'd have it out the back somewhere so it must be for public and you wouldnt exactly be spending hours in there. 20mins tops.

I wonder is it a case of not really understanding EV's and charging times. Someone in the company might have been told to improve their environmental credentials and just told the electrician to "install some EV points" and didnt really understand what it was they were getting.

Having said that, a hugely expensive DC charge point isnt likely to be a runner for businesses either. Both from a grid connection and unit cost perspective so maybe this is really the best that could be done for now?... it reduces it to greenwashing though.

AndyBoBandy

With more and more EV vans coming on stream, perhaps the lads that drive them will favour this place now over the others, and be more likely to stay a bit longer to grab a burrito as well.... The van/car might only take on 5-10% while there, but hey, it's better than nothing and will probably cover the trip there & back if they are working reasonably close by!

It'll be an advertisement for EV's too!!!! When lads are pulling in there all the time for stuff in their Transits, and are told that the charger is free for customers (i.e. free fuel), you can bet your bottom dollar it will pike their interest in EV's.

Small battles will win the war, so fair play to the place for doing this.

Black_Knight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118605418#Comment_118605418

So long as no tradies rock up to my house and plug in while they're working. It rewards a slow work day 😄

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118604650#Comment_118604650

Bit of a side topic, but I remember Grange building providers in Baldoyle had an electric truck back in 2011. Must have been one of the first in Ireland at that point

Not sure I ever saw the thing move though, so probably a fine example of greenwashing

cannco253

https://newsrnd.com/business/2022-02-10-electric-cars--tesla-superchargers-in-casino-car-parks.Byxaa-9z1c.html

"Casino and Tesla have chosen to join forces to deploy powerful chargers in 31 of the brand's car parks. The first will be in Annecy (Haute-Savoie) which should be operational this summer. After Annecy, four stores should follow in 2022, rather in the south-eastern quarter of France, then 27 in 2023.

The sites chosen will be easily accessible from motorway exits and will also allow our customers to do their shopping while loading."

Maybe somone at Dunnes should give Elon a call...

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118614760#Comment_118614760

I think Dunnes is the grocery retailer with the least chargers. The only one I know with chargers is the one from Blackrock which put them there probably due to some building regs.

cannco253

Yep I'd agree with that.

Lidl/Aldi/Tesco are at least trying, Dunnes has no strategy from what I can see.