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Commuting using electric scooter

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    #62
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Xterminator wrote: »
    i believe that a full speed collision with a pedestrian could cause serious injury or even fatality in the same way as a bicycle going fast can. There are scooters that can hit 30kmph, which is basically a moped.

    i do think they can play an important part of daily commute, and i personally dont think they have a place on the footpath.

    We need to update the law, to legalize and give guidance on the type of scooter, max speeds, and how it is to used safely eg road, bike lane, footpath etc. Define any requirements like Lights, Brakes, and if any required PPE like a helmet.
    i don't think many would disagree with your points there.


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    #63
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    liamog wrote: »
    ....
    From the same article


    I suspect, the death on the scooter was caused by the lorry colliding with the scooter, and not the scooter hitting the side of a lorry.

    ...and the design of the junction...


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    #64
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,815 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Exactly, the article implies that the scooter was the cause of the danger, when really it's the design of the junction placing vulnerable users in a location where it's difficult for HGVs to see them.


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    #65
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Xterminator wrote: »
    any required PPE like a helmet.
    I don't disagree with the rest of your post however a helmet isn't PPE it's a fancy plastic cap.


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    #66
    SteM
    Registered Users Posts: 6,570 ✭✭✭SteM


    Stephen P wrote: »
    Was thinking about getting an electric scooter to commute to work. I’m in Tallaght and work in City Centre. The distance is about 10km. Would this distance everyday be something people do? I have this idea in my head that electric scooters are used for local trips only.

    I've seen a lad in the mornings get on the 65 at the Square with a scooter, get the bus into Portobello and then travel from there into Grand Canal Docks on the scooter. I've also seen him do the reverse trip in the evenings. Travelling down through Templeogue/Terenure on a scooter would be okay imo but there's no way I'd use a scooter down the Greenhills Road through Walkinstown into the CC.


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    #67
    kenmm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭kenmm


    bk wrote: »
    To be honest, given the current pandemic and the need to keep people off public transport, I'm surprised the government hasn't rushed in legislation at least temporarily to make them legal, they would be extremely useful tool to have at the moment. It is all pretty dumb IMO.


    Could be useful, but legislatively a potential nightmare, considering many (most? all?) of them are capable of speeds in well excess of the 25 that is allowed by assisted bicycles.

    A lot of people ride them dangerously, there is no minimum standards on them, and if they opened up a low and a number of accidents were to occur, who would be at fault?

    So I can see why the gov would want to be cautious about legislating for them.


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    #68
    kenmm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭kenmm


    beauf wrote: »
    There are faster ones in use. I've seen (rarely) ones at 40-50 in Dublin.

    I was doing just under 40kmph on the Quays last week and got passed by one of those ones with the fat tyres. I don't think Id feel comfortable standing on one at that speed.


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    #69
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    kenmm wrote: »
    Could be useful, but legislatively a potential nightmare, considering many (most? all?) of them are capable of speeds in well excess of the 25 that is allowed by assisted bicycles.

    A lot of people ride them dangerously, there is no minimum standards on them, and if they opened up a low and a number of accidents were to occur, who would be at fault?

    So I can see why the gov would want to be cautious about legislating for them.
    You're grossly overstating the danger


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    #70
    kenmm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭kenmm


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    You're grossly overstating the danger

    You can't see why 'the powers that be' would be worried about rushing through legislation involving moving vehicles? All sorts of stuff is banned or legislated for due to health/safety concerns.

    Every other mechanically propelled vehicle goes through some level of safety and having to prove competence.

    I am not saying they are dangerous as such (although personally it might be handy to have some level of basic training, but I am no expert) - just that I can see why they wouldn't want to have a (legally mandated by rushed legislation) free for all.

    As the law stands there is no responsibility on the state or the law makers as they are officially illegal.


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    #71
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    kenmm wrote: »
    You can't see why 'the powers that be' would be worried about rushing through legislation involving moving vehicles? All sorts of stuff is banned or legislated for due to health/safety concerns.

    Every other mechanically propelled vehicle goes through some level of safety and having to prove competence.

    I am not saying they are dangerous as such (although personally it might be handy to have some level of basic training, but I am no expert) - just that I can see why they wouldn't want to have a (legally mandated by rushed legislation) free for all.

    As the law stands there is no responsibility on the state or the law makers as they are officially illegal.

    I never said that . As I said you're grossly overstating the danger


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    #72
    kenmm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭kenmm


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    I never said that . As I said you're grossly overstating the danger

    Don't think I did, but sure.


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    #73
    Working class heroes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,508 ✭✭✭Working class heroes


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    I never said that . As I said you're grossly overstating the danger

    In your opinion.

    Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.



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    #74
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    a simple yardstick would be that if they travel as fast as a cyclist, they're probably as dangerous as a cyclist would be. but one obvious caveat to that would be in regards to how good the brakes are.


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    #75
    Thargor
    Registered Users Posts: 17,882 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    I know people like them but I just cant get over why anyone would spend a fortune on one to commute compared to a decent bike, especially with the bike to work scheme. The list of advantages of a decent bike over a scooter is near endless.

    The bike will last forever if you look after it and if something goes wrong there will be a cheap fix 99% of the time or a bike shop within walking distance to do it for you, the scooter batteries no matter how good will not sustain that level of abuse for very long, same for the motors (its usually the controller or charging port or some other thing that gives up even earlier though), then it goes in a skip and you're left with nothing.

    On a roadbike you spin your legs and put the minimum of effort in and you're doing 30-35 kph, you can sustain that indefinitely on the flat if you're any way healthy, its borderline effortless, mountain bikes and commuters are the same just a bit slower 20-25 kph, but with their own advantages. The bike will climb any hills you do come across a lot better than the scooter will aswell.

    You can leave the bike locked outside all day or while you do your shopping or go to the cinema and expect it to be there when you come back (obviously theres a bike theft problem but its not prohibitive), you cant do that with an electric scooter, it will be gone.

    The bike doesnt care about rain or puddles, the scooter could be dead after one soaking.

    The bike will make you fit without you really noticing, the improvements in mental health are well established at this stage aswell.

    Scooters for the most part are confined to our pathetic bike lanes and footpaths, the bike can take its place on the road like any other vehicle and are encouraged to do so, they can go over pretty much any surface you'll come across aswell including offroad/dirt tracks, the scooter will struggle with anything thats not perfectly smooth. Also a Guard will probably seize it if they see you out on the road.

    No charging the bike, it runs on your fat.

    I like the idea of anything that takes a car off the road but I genuinely dont understand the scooter thing, especially with the fact the Guards are seizing them at random. I know they're fun as Ive tried them on holiday but that novelty will wear off after a couple of commutes.


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    #76
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Thargor wrote: »
    On a roadbike you spin your legs and put the minimum of effort in and you're doing ...35 kph, you can sustain that indefinitely on the flat if you're any way healthy
    <coughs into his beer>


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    #77
    Thargor
    Registered Users Posts: 17,882 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Maybe my cheap Chinese cycling computer is lying to me but 30 kph is easy surely? Seeing as the scooters are limited to 25 you get my point anyway.


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    #78
    kenmm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭kenmm


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    <coughs into his beer>

    I wouldn't say minimum effort, but after using it a while, around 30 (high 20s to low 30s) on the flat is very achievable for most people...


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    #79
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Thargor wrote: »
    Maybe my cheap Chinese cycling computer is lying to me but 30 kph is easy surely? Seeing as the scooters are limited to 25 you get my point anyway.

    Drag is exponential so remember there's a big difference between 25/28/30/32 say but cruising at 30 would be fine for a fit cyclist. Riding in traffic though you'd spend a lot more time accelerating/stopped. Doing 22-24 would be more "normal" for average joe Id say especially with a backpack etc. 19-21 avg over total journey time.





    The scooters are limited to 25...sort of. Lots you can firmware update and be north of 30 in about 90 seconds. A boosted board with a new set of wheels (larger) can hit almost 48kph.

    Personally Im fine with an M365 doing 25 in dry conditions but same doing 32 in the wet is a rolling RSA statistic.


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    #80
    kenmm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭kenmm


    Thargor wrote: »
    you get my point anyway.

    Many good points in terms of health etc


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    #81
    The pigeon man
    Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭The pigeon man


    “mechanically propelled vehicle” means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—

    (a) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

    (b) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical


    They're classed as mpvs even is you need to push them to start the motor. Since you can't get tax and insurance on them they are illegal to use in a public place.


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    #82
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Thargor wrote: »
    Maybe my cheap Chinese cycling computer is lying to me but 30 kph is easy surely? Seeing as the scooters are limited to 25 you get my point anyway.
    there is a world of difference between 30 and 35km/h being 'sustained indefinitely' as 'borderline effortless' is all that i was getting at.


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    #83
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Working class heroes wrote: »
    In your opinion.

    In physic's opinion


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    #84
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    In physic's opinion

    They been in use long enough now not to rely on opinions. There are stats on acidents rates of scooters, and eBikes and they aren't intuitive.

    If a lot of people started walking there would be more walking accidents especially in stats. That doesn't automatically mean that walking is dangerous.


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    #85
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,354 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Most Gardai appear to be adopting a 'hands off' approach but there is absolutely no doubt that under the definition in the RTA 1961, they are mechanically propelled vehicles. So you need a driving licence and insurance.

    The problem with changing the law to legalise their use without the requirement for insurance is that their use will explode and every collision involving an electric scooter and a pedestrian is going to result in a claim against the motor insurance bureau. Which is funded by a levy on motor insurance policies i.e.car owners ultimately pay for the claims.


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    #86
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,815 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Why would it be a claim against motor insurance, who covers collisions between a cyclist and a pedestrian, I always assumed it was covered by the home insurance.
    We don't need insurance for bikes, so we shouldn't make it mandatory for e-scooters.


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    #87
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Some counties require them to have insurance

    https://www.eltis.org/discover/news/e-scooter-regulations-germany-and-france#:~:text=From%20June%202019%2C%20E-scooters,(45%20km%2Fh)).&text=The%20vehicles%20are%20allowed%20on,but%20forbidden%20on%20the%20pavement.


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    #88
    kenmm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭kenmm


    liamog wrote: »
    Why would it be a claim against motor insurance, who covers collisions between a cyclist and a pedestrian, I always assumed it was covered by the home insurance.
    We don't need insurance for bikes, so we shouldn't make it mandatory for e-scooters.

    Depends on the cyclist. A lot would have 3rd pty insurance (not home insurance)


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