Commuting using electric scooter

Stephen P

Was thinking about getting an electric scooter to commute to work. I’m in Tallaght and work in City Centre. The distance is about 10km. Would this distance everyday be something people do? I have this idea in my head that electric scooters are used for local trips only.

5uspect

I've seen people use them all over the place, from down along the Grand Canal and even Strawberry beds.
The former is fine, the latter is a bit crazy. Have a think about your route and the road surface.
Also be aware of the legal situation.

10km is nothing on a bike if you have storage and shower facilities.

ED E

Its illegal and you can be done for driving without insurance. Why not cycle? eBike if you like.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/first-cases-of-riding-e-scooters-without-insurance-brought-to-court-1.4057797

Gatling

ED E wrote: »

Its illegal and you can be done for driving without insurance.

It's not illegal certainly not according to that article

My OH uses hers for work most days ,

Cookie_Monster

Gatling wrote: »

It's not illegal certainly not according to that article

My OH uses hers for work most days ,

they are, need tax and insurance as by law they are motorised vehicles. but you cannot get tax and insurance for them, hence they are effectively illegal.

Gatling

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

they are, need tax and insurance as by law they are motorised vehicles. but you cannot get tax and insurance for them, hence they are effectively illegal.

No there is zero legislation in place to say that they are illegal and no court has ruled on them either .

Making them legal people might not like them but there not illegal

thenightman

They are definitely illegal. Unless you are continually scooting to power yourself they are classed as MPV's and require insurance, tax, NCT and depending on speed, a drivers licence. Here's a video of a roads policing Garda seizing 2 in Terenure. Your advice that they are not illegal will end up causing someone a lot of grief and money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G12b3kgDwRA

Padre_Pio

Stephen P wrote: »

Was thinking about getting an electric scooter to commute to work. I’m in Tallaght and work in City Centre. The distance is about 10km. Would this distance everyday be something people do? I have this idea in my head that electric scooters are used for local trips only.

10k is a handy cycle without electric.
Any particular scooter in mind? There's plenty of options.
I'd look into an ebike if you're worried about the legalities.

Gatling

thenightman wrote: »

They are definitely illegal. Unless you are continually scooting to power yourself they are classed as MPV's and require insurance, tax, NCT and depending on speed, a drivers licence. Here's a video of a roads policing Garda seizing 2 in Terenure

It's there in black and white in the article they don't need tax , insurance or a license .

By the sounds the only requirement will be a helmet and a speed restriction software.


No case has actually been decided by a court or by legislation .

Not opinion ,not make your own interpretation of motor vehicles laws

thenightman

It obviously isn't if roads policing Gardai are actively seizing them as in the video I linked to. I'd go with their interpretation of the RTA over yours and save myself an appearance in court + impound fees and possible loss of scooter to boot!

Gatling

thenightman wrote: »

It obviously isn't if roads policing Gardai are actively seizing them

But there not ,

They seized 900 cars from learner permit holders for driving unaccompanied in the first few months of the year

One Garda siezes two scooters in a single year based off his interpretation of a law that doesn't legislate for scooters

con747

From the RSA website "What is the law on eBikes, pedelecs or battery powered
scooters? Regardless of the type of bike, its speed or whether it requires a push
start, the rules are as follows:
• If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can continue
without you pedalling or scooting it) then it is considered to be a ‘mechanically
propelled vehicle’ (MPV).
• Under road traffic law if an MPV is used in a public place it is subject to all of the
regulatory controls that apply to other vehicles i.e. it must be roadworthy,
registered, taxed and insured.
• The driver of the vehicle must hold the appropriate driving licence and is obliged to
wear a crash helmet".

Peregrine

Gatling wrote: »

It's not illegal certainly not according to that article

My OH uses hers for work most days ,

It's a mechanically propelled vehicle and requires a license, tax and insurance to operate. It's not possible to tax or insure them so they are, effectively, illegal.

What article are you reading? The entire article is about two people being brought to court over riding an e-scooter and the slow progress being made to legislate them. How did you conclude from that article that it's not illegal?

Gatling wrote: »

No there is zero legislation in place to say that they are illegal and no court has ruled on them either .

You don't have to put legislation in place to say something is illegal. They fall into an unintended category within existing legislation that sets out requirements for their use. Requirements that are impossible to fulfill. So their use on Irish roads is illegal.

A court has ruled on it. The case mentioned in the article above was ruled on in December. The court handed out five penalty points and a €300 fine.

Gatling wrote: »

Making them legal people might not like them but there not illegal

You may not like it. I don't like it. I'll fight for you to be able to use them without being bothered. But the fact remains that they are illegal and they are being seized.

Gatling wrote: »

By the sounds the only requirement will be a helmet and a speed restriction software.

The FF bill is gone. The Dáil was dissolved so all bills went with it. We're still waiting for results on the consultation they did back in October. Shane Ross has said in the last month that it'll be the next minister's job to legislate for them. Even if Shane Ross wanted to bring in legislation now, there's no Seanad and he's not even a TD.

Gatling wrote: »

One Garda siezes two scooters in a single year based off his interpretation of a law that doesn't legislate for scooters

Oh, it's more than one. It happened a few times. Several were seized. More court appearances will follow.

magicbastarder

Gatling wrote: »

No there is zero legislation in place to say that they are illegal and no court has ruled on them either .

the problem for them is *precisely* that there is no legislation for them. so they're MPVs.

bk

magicbastarder wrote: »

the problem for them is *precisely* that there is no legislation for them. so they're MPVs.

The law doesn't really work that way. If it isn't clearly spelled out in legislation, then it is up to a judge to make the decision if illegal or not. Until a judge sets precedence, then no one can really say that with any certainty.

Until it is either specifically legislated on or a judge makes a decision on it (and potentially challenged in the high court and EU courts), then it remains a grey area.

To be honest, given the current pandemic and the need to keep people off public transport, I'm surprised the government hasn't rushed in legislation at least temporarily to make them legal, they would be extremely useful tool to have at the moment. It is all pretty dumb IMO.

LeinsterDub

thenightman wrote: »

They are definitely illegal. Unless you are continually scooting to power yourself they are classed as MPV's and require insurance, tax, NCT and depending on speed, a drivers licence. Here's a video of a roads policing Garda seizing 2 in Terenure. Your advice that they are not illegal will end up causing someone a lot of grief and money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G12b3kgDwRA

Also illegal under this ridiculous interpretation kiddies electric cars :rolleyes:

ED E

BK the law was written TO BE catch all. So I cant say my Car is a Var and not have to tax it/get a license. The eScoot community spouted this grey area nonsense for ages.



You probably wont be done, BUT, if you are, itll make it horrendously expensive for you to ensure yourself on a car/motorbike. For lots thatd be crippling. Really not worth it when an eBike up to 250W is totally legal.

bk

ED E wrote: »

BK the law was written TO BE catch all. So I cant say my Car is a Var and not have to tax it/get a license. The eScoot community spouted this grey area nonsense for ages.
.

That simply isn't the way that the law works. Catch all type legislation is viewed very poorly by the courts and tends to be thrown out, which is why legislators put so much effort into narrowly defining what does and does not fall within a particular law.

Your "var" example is a poor one, because in every way it looks land operates like a car. An e-scooter doesn't look like any car I've ever seen before. An e-scooter looks and has operating characteristics much more similar to a bicycle or e-bike.

A judge would have a tough time making a decision on such a case and would likely look to emerging legislation and regulations in the UK and other EU countries, most of which specifically don't class them as MPV's, but as Personal Light Electric Vehicles (PLEVs), which regulations very different from MPV's.

I'd have to say it is definitely very much a grey area and will continue to be so until legislated specifically for (which is should be) or a judge makes a decision.

liamog

bk wrote: »

I'd have to say it is definitely very much a grey area and will continue to be so until legislated specifically for (which is should be) or a judge makes a decision.

It's pretty clear cut that it is a Motor Propelled Vehicle, if anything the fact that enabling legislation was required in other jurisdictions hurts the case. I'm 100% in favour of e Scooters and other personal electric mobility vehicles, but claiming it's a grey area is dangerous, and encouraging their use on Irish streets may well be against boards.ie policy with regard to illegal activity.

magicbastarder

bk wrote: »

If it isn't clearly spelled out in legislation

it's a motor propelled vehicle.
if i buy an electric motorbike which had the equivalent power of a 1000cc motorbike, the law says it's an MPV and is subject to those laws; there's no distinction made in law for the scooter simply because it is less powerful.

or would you claim that a very powerful electric motorbike is *not* an MPV? if so, what's different about the leaf that means it's treated as such?

monument

To be clear here: I’m responding to a reported post and acting as moderator here:

Scooters are currently Mechanically Propelled Vehicles.

The provisions under road traffic law here (as with many other places in Europe) is catch-all. So anything from a scooter to bicycle with a two stroke engine added or a speed electric bicycle is illegal to use — the law doesn’t work in discounting things, it says what’s allowed or what the requirements are and everything else is not road legal.

Scooters etc are currently classed as Mechanically Propelled Vehicles by the Department of Transport and viewed that way also by the Gardai and RSA. So, their use requires motor tax, insurance, the user to be licensed, them to be wearing motorcycle helmets etc and, even with all of that, it’s highly unlikely scooters conform to build standards required.

— moderator

thenightman

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Also illegal under this ridiculous interpretation kiddies electric cars :rolleyes:

If people used them on the public road in the manner scooters are being used, then yes. Nobody is that stupid though, unless you want to try and prove a point.



RSA is clear: If a vehicle is powered by an electric or mechanical motor without operator continually pedalling/scooting to propel it, it's classed as an MPV for the purposes of the RTA. All your roll eyes cant change that!

LeinsterDub

thenightman wrote: »

If people used them on the public road in the manner scooters are being used, then yes. Nobody is that stupid though, unless you want to try and prove a point.



RSA is clear: If a vehicle is powered by an electric or mechanical motor without operator continually pedalling/scooting to propel it, it's classed as an MPV for the purposes of the RTA. All your roll eyes cant change that!

I'm not contesting what the RSA said i'm just pointing the these cars match this exact definition

beauf

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Also illegal under this ridiculous interpretation kiddies electric cars :rolleyes:

Let us know how you get on taxing and insuring one for public road use.

Xterminator

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Also illegal under this ridiculous interpretation kiddies electric cars :rolleyes:

Seen anyone commuting to work on one?

Its not a ridiculous interpretation, its a logical interpretation, and the solution is fairly simple too. We need legislation to be amended to regularize and legislate how the electric scooters are used, and what responsibility the users have for their own and other pavement/road users safety.

im quite concerned that some of the scooters seem to be getting over 20kmph, but are being used on the pavements in close proximity with pedestrians. I can only imagine impacts at that speed would cause considerable damage.

So if you want to do something , contact your TD and ask them to raise the issue.

Cienciano

My mate commutes on one. He went through a garda checkpoint set up on the canal where they were taking them. He was let go because his required a few leg pushes to get going. They took the ones that started under their own power.

beauf

Cienciano wrote: »

My mate commutes on one. He went through a garda checkpoint set up on the canal where they were taking them. He was let go because his required a few leg pushes to get going. They took the ones that started under their own power.

How they start does not make them legal. It's just a local Garda ignoring them. If they were legal they wouldn't have been able to fine people on them. Nothing Gray about it.

If they were legal they wouldn't need legislation to make them legal. Garda are turning a blind eye to them mostly.

You'd be very unlucky to get stopped. But don't be surprised if you are.

I've mostly seen them with commuter's. But lately I see more teens with them locally. They aren't as careful with speed though.

LeinsterDub

beauf wrote: »

Let us know how you get on taxing and insuring one for public road use.

That is exactly my point

Grolschevik

beauf wrote: »

How they start does not make them legal.

There's something in this related to that, as far as I remember. On phone, so too much hassle to find and quote directly, but the article starts on p34. Just educated opinion on the state of the law, not statement of fact.


https://www.lawsociety.ie/globalassets/documents/gazette/gazette-pdfs/gazette-2019/june-2019-gazette.pdf#page=37

LeinsterDub

Xterminator wrote: »

Seen anyone commuting to work on one?

Its not a ridiculous interpretation, its a logical interpretation, and the solution is fairly simple too. We need legislation to be amended to regularize and legislate how the electric scooters are used, and what responsibility the users have for their own and other pavement/road users safety.

im quite concerned that some of the scooters seem to be getting over 20kmph, but are being used on the pavements in close proximity with pedestrians. I can only imagine impacts at that speed would cause considerable damage.

So if you want to do something , contact your TD and ask them to raise the issue.

I've seen kids commuting to school on them.
20 KPH is barely anything people can run at that speed

beauf

LeinsterDub wrote: »

That is exactly my point

Then it's clearly not legal.

beauf

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I've seen kids commuting to school on them.
20 KPH is barely anything people can run at that speed

There are faster ones in use. I've seen (rarely) ones at 40-50 in Dublin.

beauf

Grolschevik wrote: »

There's something in this related to that, as far as I remember. On phone, so too much hassle to find and quote directly, but the article starts on p34. Just educated opinion on the state of the law, not statement of fact.


https://www.lawsociety.ie/globalassets/documents/gazette/gazette-pdfs/gazette-2019/june-2019-gazette.pdf#page=37

That's just opinion.

Petrol power bicycles need to be cycled to start and are not legal.

The issue is so they need human effort to keep going and these scooters don't.

I'm not digging up all the legislation again it was some before in old threads.

Grolschevik

beauf wrote: »

I'm not digging up all the legislation again it was some before in old threads.

It's all hyperlinked from the article anyway.

beauf

Grolschevik wrote: »

It's all hyperlinked from the article anyway.

Pretty much everyone is biased to what suits them when it comes to escooter s and mostly these articles are the same. Usually selective with the facts and opinions.

The facts we know is a handful of people where stopped and fined. Vast majority not. They've delayed getting the legislation in place. We are probably behind every other country in Europe on this.

Grolschevik

beauf wrote: »

Pretty much everyone is biased to what suits them when it comes to escooter s and mostly these articles are the same. Usually selective with the facts and opinions.

The facts we know is a handful of people where stopped and fined. Vast majority not. They've delayed getting the legislation in place. We are probably behind every other country in Europe on this.

It's an overview of different opinions, as a guide. The author isn't pushing an agenda, bar the need for more clarity.

In fact, I'm pretty sure it says just what your last paragraph does.

beauf

That push to start bit is very misleading.

magicbastarder

the 'push to start' check is simple. if it is able to set off under its own power, it fails at the first hurdle, so it's a very simple first test.

the confusion arises because some people (gardai included) seem to think this test is comprehensive, and it's not. passing this first test is not a sufficient test to determine if they're road legal.

if it passes that first test, there should be *subsequent* tests too. from what i understand, the 'push to start' functionality is not a design to ensure it meets any regulations, more so that it makes the scooter more stable to use; it forces someone to balance the scooter with their feet for the first few km/h, rather than standing fully on a stationary scooter and hitting the big red button. you're already moving when the power kicks in.

beauf

The is nothing in legislation about starting.

People keep bringing it up as fudge to get around this...

If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can continue
without you pedalling or scooting it) then it is considered to be a ‘mechanically
propelled vehicle’ (MPV).

.. which is doesn't. Even if it did, ...which it doesn't, you can't tax or insure it, so its illegal on a public road/space.

It is legal on private grounds.

We could just copy other countries legislation and see how it it works and change or withdraw it later.
Instead we do nothing.

beauf

magicbastarder wrote: »

.... from what i understand, the 'push to start' functionality is not a design to ensure it meets any regulations, more so that it makes the scooter more stable to use; it forces someone to balance the scooter with their feet for the first few km/h, rather than standing fully on a stationary scooter and hitting the big red button. you're already moving when the power kicks in....

Maybe, I think its just allows you to use a smaller motor, which makes the whole need thing need less power, smaller batteries and is thus lighter.

eMicro took this a step further where you it won't keep going unless you assist it by scooting or a body movement. Which made it really light and portable at that time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBS_vwtxCCs

beauf

If the Garda are mostly ignoring it, does it really matter anyway,

liamog

magicbastarder wrote: »

the 'push to start' check is simple. if it is able to set off under its own power, it fails at the first hurdle, so it's a very simple first test.

the confusion arises because some people (gardai included) seem to think this test is comprehensive, and it's not. passing this first test is not a sufficient test to determine if they're road legal.

Could you imagine, we'd have lads roaring around in Ford Fiesta's with the starter motor removed, claiming they don't need a licence, tax, insurance or NCT because they have to give it a push start every time.

Xterminator

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I've seen kids commuting to school on them.
20 KPH is barely anything people can run at that speed

if you remember you applied maths from school, Momentum

p =mv

so say the mass of a runner is 100kg and velocity is 20 kmh the p = 100*20
the same person going the same speed on 12 kg scooter p = 112*20

and 20kmph is quite slow. some go at far faster, and there is no regulation of max speed, some on sale in halfords can do 30kmph, and some imports even more.

so there is no doubt that even at 20kmph collision will be dangerous and at higher speeds, could be fatal. can you imagine if someone going 20kmph plus hit your mum ?

beauf

Cyclists would be in a similar range though only very fit sports cyclist hit those top speeds. But the impact would be similar.

I think both cyclists or scooterists would be doing their best to avoid any collisions due to self preservation.

There are some scooters which are lot faster. They need to be treated separately certainly.

magicbastarder

20km/h is an easy speed for most people to sustain on a bike.
fit cyclists could be maintaining 30km/h or more on the flat.

LeinsterDub

beauf wrote: »

There are faster ones in use. I've seen (rarely) ones at 40-50 in Dublin.

Those need to be banned. Max speed should be about 25 kph

LeinsterDub

Xterminator wrote: »

if you remember you applied maths from school, Momentum

p =mv

so say the mass of a runner is 100kg and velocity is 20 kmh the p = 100*20
the same person going the same speed on 12 kg scooter p = 112*20

and 20kmph is quite slow. some go at far faster, and there is no regulation of max speed, some on sale in halfords can do 30kmph, and some imports even more.

so there is no doubt that even at 20kmph collision will be dangerous and at higher speeds, could be fatal. can you imagine if someone going 20kmph plus hit your mum ?

I'm aware of momentum.

Everything can be dangerous. PEVs are some of the safest things on the road. We've cars can easily top 240 but yeah let's focus on PEVs

magicbastarder

Xterminator wrote: »

so there is no doubt that even at 20kmph collision will be dangerous and at higher speeds, could be fatal. can you imagine if someone going 20kmph plus hit your mum ?

are you trying to argue that scooters are dangerous, or not dangerous? it's not clear from your post.

Cookie_Monster

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Those need to be banned. Max speed should be about 25 kph

they are banned! :pac:

Marcusm

Gatling wrote: »

It's not illegal certainly not according to that article

My OH uses hers for work most days ,

There is nothing in that article which suggests it’s not illegal. The bringing of a charge is no proof of illegality but it is not done lightly. They are mechanically propelled vehicles meaning they need to be register, taxed and insured to be used on a public road and the rider needs a licence. They cannot be used on footpaths in any circumstances.

Marcusm

bk wrote: »

The law doesn't really work that way. If it isn't clearly spelled out in legislation, then it is up to a judge to make the decision if illegal or not. Until a judge sets precedence, then no one can really say that with any certainty.

Until it is either specifically legislated on or a judge makes a decision on it (and potentially challenged in the high court and EU courts), then it remains a grey area.

To be honest, given the current pandemic and the need to keep people off public transport, I'm surprised the government hasn't rushed in legislation at least temporarily to make them legal, they would be extremely useful tool to have at the moment. It is all pretty dumb IMO.

There is legislation; they fit the definition of “mechanically propelled vehicle” in the same manner as a car.