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Commuting using electric scooter

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2

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    #32
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    I've seen kids commuting to school on them.
    20 KPH is barely anything people can run at that speed

    There are faster ones in use. I've seen (rarely) ones at 40-50 in Dublin.


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    #33
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Grolschevik wrote: »
    There's something in this related to that, as far as I remember. On phone, so too much hassle to find and quote directly, but the article starts on p34. Just educated opinion on the state of the law, not statement of fact.


    https://www.lawsociety.ie/globalassets/documents/gazette/gazette-pdfs/gazette-2019/june-2019-gazette.pdf#page=37

    That's just opinion.

    Petrol power bicycles need to be cycled to start and are not legal.

    The issue is so they need human effort to keep going and these scooters don't.

    I'm not digging up all the legislation again it was some before in old threads.


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    #34
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    beauf wrote: »

    I'm not digging up all the legislation again it was some before in old threads.

    It's all hyperlinked from the article anyway.


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    #35
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Grolschevik wrote: »
    It's all hyperlinked from the article anyway.

    Pretty much everyone is biased to what suits them when it comes to escooter s and mostly these articles are the same. Usually selective with the facts and opinions.

    The facts we know is a handful of people where stopped and fined. Vast majority not. They've delayed getting the legislation in place. We are probably behind every other country in Europe on this.


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    #36
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    beauf wrote: »
    Pretty much everyone is biased to what suits them when it comes to escooter s and mostly these articles are the same. Usually selective with the facts and opinions.

    The facts we know is a handful of people where stopped and fined. Vast majority not. They've delayed getting the legislation in place. We are probably behind every other country in Europe on this.

    It's an overview of different opinions, as a guide. The author isn't pushing an agenda, bar the need for more clarity.

    In fact, I'm pretty sure it says just what your last paragraph does.


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    #37
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    That push to start bit is very misleading.


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    #38
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,714 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    the 'push to start' check is simple. if it is able to set off under its own power, it fails at the first hurdle, so it's a very simple first test.

    the confusion arises because some people (gardai included) seem to think this test is comprehensive, and it's not. passing this first test is not a sufficient test to determine if they're road legal.

    if it passes that first test, there should be *subsequent* tests too. from what i understand, the 'push to start' functionality is not a design to ensure it meets any regulations, more so that it makes the scooter more stable to use; it forces someone to balance the scooter with their feet for the first few km/h, rather than standing fully on a stationary scooter and hitting the big red button. you're already moving when the power kicks in.


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    #39
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The is nothing in legislation about starting.

    People keep bringing it up as fudge to get around this...
    If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can continue
    without you pedalling or scooting it) then it is considered to be a ‘mechanically
    propelled vehicle’ (MPV).

    .. which is doesn't. Even if it did, ...which it doesn't, you can't tax or insure it, so its illegal on a public road/space.

    It is legal on private grounds.

    We could just copy other countries legislation and see how it it works and change or withdraw it later.
    Instead we do nothing.


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    #40
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    .... from what i understand, the 'push to start' functionality is not a design to ensure it meets any regulations, more so that it makes the scooter more stable to use; it forces someone to balance the scooter with their feet for the first few km/h, rather than standing fully on a stationary scooter and hitting the big red button. you're already moving when the power kicks in....

    Maybe, I think its just allows you to use a smaller motor, which makes the whole need thing need less power, smaller batteries and is thus lighter.

    eMicro took this a step further where you it won't keep going unless you assist it by scooting or a body movement. Which made it really light and portable at that time.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBS_vwtxCCs


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    #41
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    If the Garda are mostly ignoring it, does it really matter anyway,


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    #42
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,844 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    the 'push to start' check is simple. if it is able to set off under its own power, it fails at the first hurdle, so it's a very simple first test.

    the confusion arises because some people (gardai included) seem to think this test is comprehensive, and it's not. passing this first test is not a sufficient test to determine if they're road legal.

    Could you imagine, we'd have lads roaring around in Ford Fiesta's with the starter motor removed, claiming they don't need a licence, tax, insurance or NCT because they have to give it a push start every time.


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    #43
    Xterminator
    Registered Users Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭Xterminator


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    I've seen kids commuting to school on them.
    20 KPH is barely anything people can run at that speed

    if you remember you applied maths from school, Momentum

    p =mv

    so say the mass of a runner is 100kg and velocity is 20 kmh the p = 100*20
    the same person going the same speed on 12 kg scooter p = 112*20

    and 20kmph is quite slow. some go at far faster, and there is no regulation of max speed, some on sale in halfords can do 30kmph, and some imports even more.

    so there is no doubt that even at 20kmph collision will be dangerous and at higher speeds, could be fatal. can you imagine if someone going 20kmph plus hit your mum ?


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    #44
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Cyclists would be in a similar range though only very fit sports cyclist hit those top speeds. But the impact would be similar.

    I think both cyclists or scooterists would be doing their best to avoid any collisions due to self preservation.

    There are some scooters which are lot faster. They need to be treated separately certainly.


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    #45
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,714 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    20km/h is an easy speed for most people to sustain on a bike.
    fit cyclists could be maintaining 30km/h or more on the flat.


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    #46
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    beauf wrote: »
    There are faster ones in use. I've seen (rarely) ones at 40-50 in Dublin.

    Those need to be banned. Max speed should be about 25 kph


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    #47
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Xterminator wrote: »
    if you remember you applied maths from school, Momentum

    p =mv

    so say the mass of a runner is 100kg and velocity is 20 kmh the p = 100*20
    the same person going the same speed on 12 kg scooter p = 112*20

    and 20kmph is quite slow. some go at far faster, and there is no regulation of max speed, some on sale in halfords can do 30kmph, and some imports even more.

    so there is no doubt that even at 20kmph collision will be dangerous and at higher speeds, could be fatal. can you imagine if someone going 20kmph plus hit your mum ?
    I'm aware of momentum.

    Everything can be dangerous. PEVs are some of the safest things on the road. We've cars can easily top 240 but yeah let's focus on PEVs


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    #48
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,714 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Xterminator wrote: »
    so there is no doubt that even at 20kmph collision will be dangerous and at higher speeds, could be fatal. can you imagine if someone going 20kmph plus hit your mum ?
    are you trying to argue that scooters are dangerous, or not dangerous? it's not clear from your post.


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    #49
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,480 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Those need to be banned. Max speed should be about 25 kph

    they are banned! :pac:


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    #50
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,227 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Gatling wrote: »
    It's not illegal certainly not according to that article

    My OH uses hers for work most days ,

    There is nothing in that article which suggests it’s not illegal. The bringing of a charge is no proof of illegality but it is not done lightly. They are mechanically propelled vehicles meaning they need to be register, taxed and insured to be used on a public road and the rider needs a licence. They cannot be used on footpaths in any circumstances.


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    #51
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,227 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    bk wrote: »
    The law doesn't really work that way. If it isn't clearly spelled out in legislation, then it is up to a judge to make the decision if illegal or not. Until a judge sets precedence, then no one can really say that with any certainty.

    Until it is either specifically legislated on or a judge makes a decision on it (and potentially challenged in the high court and EU courts), then it remains a grey area.

    To be honest, given the current pandemic and the need to keep people off public transport, I'm surprised the government hasn't rushed in legislation at least temporarily to make them legal, they would be extremely useful tool to have at the moment. It is all pretty dumb IMO.

    There is legislation; they fit the definition of “mechanically propelled vehicle” in the same manner as a car.


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    #52
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,227 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Also illegal under this ridiculous interpretation kiddies electric cars :rolleyes:

    Which cannot be used on public roads! These are precisely the same, legal to use only on private property.


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    #53
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,227 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    bk wrote: »
    That simply isn't the way that the law works. Catch all type legislation is viewed very poorly by the courts and tends to be thrown out, which is why legislators put so much effort into narrowly defining what does and does not fall within a particular law.

    Your "var" example is a poor one, because in every way it looks land operates like a car. An e-scooter doesn't look like any car I've ever seen before. An e-scooter looks and has operating characteristics much more similar to a bicycle or e-bike.

    A judge would have a tough time making a decision on such a case and would likely look to emerging legislation and regulations in the UK and other EU countries, most of which specifically don't class them as MPV's, but as Personal Light Electric Vehicles (PLEVs), which regulations very different from MPV's.

    I'd have to say it is definitely very much a grey area and will continue to be so until legislated specifically for (which is should be) or a judge makes a decision.

    Nope; the primary rule in statutory construction is not as you suggest but is to apply the words used in the statute and only rely on other precedent where there is ambiguity. No-one is suggesting. that they are a car or can but they fall squarely within the definition of a mechanically propelled vehicle as would, for example, a French mobilette which while push started continues under its own power. This is not that new an area.


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    #54
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,227 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    beauf wrote: »
    Pretty much everyone is biased to what suits them when it comes to escooter s and mostly these articles are the same. Usually selective with the facts and opinions.

    The facts we know is a handful of people where stopped and fined. Vast majority not. They've delayed getting the legislation in place. We are probably behind every other country in Europe on this.

    The U.K. is in exactly the same position as Ireland despite lobbying from Lime etc.


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    #55
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,832 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    beauf wrote: »
    If the Garda are mostly ignoring it, does it really matter anyway,

    it would if some zealous Guard confiscated your €500 scooter. There is also the risk of being done for driving without insurance which could result in having your license taken away (I haven't heard of the latter happening, but it seems legally possible). They really need to get on and legalise them, they're no more dangerous than eBikes IMO.


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    #56
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Marcusm wrote: »
    The U.K. is in exactly the same position as Ireland despite lobbying from Lime etc.

    I said probably and anyway is UK in Europe anymore legally?


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    #57
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    loyatemu wrote: »
    it would if some zealous Guard confiscated your €500 scooter. There is also the risk of being done for driving without insurance which could result in having your license taken away (I haven't heard of the latter happening, but it seems legally possible). They really need to get on and legalise them, they're no more dangerous than eBikes IMO.

    Oh I agree entirely.


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    #58
    DavyD_83
    Registered Users Posts: 1,991 ✭✭✭DavyD_83


    con747 wrote: »
    From the RSA website "What is the law on eBikes, pedelecs or battery powered
    scooters? Regardless of the type of bike, its speed or whether it requires a push
    start, the rules are as follows:
    • If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can continue
    without you pedalling or scooting it) then it is considered to be a ‘mechanically
    propelled vehicle’ (MPV).
    • Under road traffic law if an MPV is used in a public place it is subject to all of the
    regulatory controls that apply to other vehicles i.e. it must be roadworthy,
    registered, taxed and insured.
    • The driver of the vehicle must hold the appropriate driving licence and is obliged to
    wear a crash helmet".

    I'm no expert, and have no plans to get a scooter, but is the above bit where things start to fall apart on the argument.
    There is no real appropriate license available for these devices. And I have heard that it's not possible to purchase tax or insurance for them. So, really your trying to say that they are banned until the gov figure out how to monitor and collect money from them.
    Where others feel that the lack of clear rules mean they are ok for the moment.

    And if working to the letter of the law, I don't see how a scooter pass actually different by definition to a kids electric ride on.


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    #59
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    DavyD_83 wrote: »
    ...

    And if working to the letter of the law, I don't see how a scooter pass actually different by definition to a kids electric ride on.

    They are also banned from public spaces.

    On private ground is the only place you can use them.


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    #60
    Xterminator
    Registered Users Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭Xterminator


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    are you trying to argue that scooters are dangerous, or not dangerous? it's not clear from your post.

    i believe that a full speed collision with a pedestrian could cause serious injury or even fatality in the same way as a bicycle going fast can. There are scooters that can hit 30kmph, which is basically a moped.

    i do think they can play an important part of daily commute, and i personally dont think they have a place on the footpath.

    We need to update the law, to legalize and give guidance on the type of scooter, max speeds, and how it is to used safely eg road, bike lane, footpath etc. Define any requirements like Lights, Brakes, and if any required PPE like a helmet.


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    #61
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,844 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    It's probably something that will be regulated at a European level similar to the laws around pedelecs. A max speed of 25km/h seems to be common.

    As to how dangerous they are, the wording in the UK scooter death is worrying.
    Emily Hartridge died on Friday morning when her e-scooter collided with a lorry at a roundabout in Battersea, south-west London.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/13/tv-presenter-emily-hartridge-dies-in-scooter-crash#:~:text=Tributes%20have%20poured%20in%20for,Battersea%2C%20south%2Dwest%20London

    From the same article
    The new layout has been criticised as being confusing and last year a cyclist died after being hit by a bin lorry.

    I suspect, the death on the scooter was caused by the lorry colliding with the scooter, and not the scooter hitting the side of a lorry.


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