A 30 KPH limit for Dublin

Stark

The impression I got is it sounds like an enforcement issue. People get somewhat complacent letting their kids out on the street as average speeds are down but then you get the few who totally ignore the limit.

km991148

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I would love if someone organised a drive your car to work day for cyclists, when offices are back open.
During the last lockdown there seemed to be quite a few fatal crashes and pedestrians and cyclists killed. I noticed when going in and out of town on the bike that people were driving a lot faster because there were less cars on the road. Empty roads seem to make for reckless drivers.

ye - that be funny actually - but then it would be "Bloody cyclists causing all these traffic jams".. :pac:


Re the 30kmph - its all over EU - whats the big deal? Some places do mixed 20/30/40 - no issues realy.

Pinch Flat

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I would love if someone organised a drive your car to work day for cyclists, when offices are back open.
During the last lockdown there seemed to be quite a few fatal crashes and pedestrians and cyclists killed. I noticed when going in and out of town on the bike that people were driving a lot faster because there were less cars on the road. Empty roads seem to make for reckless drivers.

I'd be up for this. Perhaps a poster you put in the back window that says "I normally cycle".

Stark

I'd stick the poster in my car. You couldn't pay me to sit in traffic I didn't have to sit in though :pac:

Amirani

cnocbui wrote: »

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/17/20mph-limit-dangerous-costly-reverse-council-admits/

Well that was unexpected.

Nothing it this article shows that the reduced speed limits caused an increase in fatalities.

Half of the 13 areas had a lower fatality rate this year, and half had higher. Nothing demonstrating causality, or controlling for other factors. Maybe they could actually try a scientific trial?

DirkVoodoo

double jobbing wrote: »

So?


Say your cross-town bus commute is 10 km, the difference between a speed of 30 km/h and a 50km/h speed will be 8 minutes. Many journeys in the DCC zone will be a less than 10 km.

Good to know you have a spare 80 minutes per week/ 5 hours a month/ 4000 minutes a year you're doing nothing with.



A person struck by an oncoming car will often be the author of their own misfortune because they are too busy playing with the phone while wearing Beats headphones weaving in and out of traffic on their bike.[/QUOTE]

Such nonsense. Speed limits are not indicative of average speeds. The average speed in Dublin for commuters won't even approach 30kmh. This just removes those spikes at 50kph that are really not safe in a city centre. You are just scaremongering and throwing out ridiculous stereotypes. Donald.

Let's start fishing for actual evidence. Oh, my first google. 5% increase in commute time:

https://edmontonjournal.com/opinion/columnists/opinion-science-backs-the-safety-of-30-kmh-limits

And as this shows, people need to stop with the bull about "my car can't drive that slow" when the truth is "you can't drive that slow":

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0386111212000362

magicbastarder

google is showing a 45 minute drive at the moment for the 16km trip from my house to my office (which i haven't done since january). it's from the northside to leopardstown.
i can cycle it in about 50 minutes - using a longer 19.5km route - and the vast majority of the cycle is done at about 30km/h or under.
i reckon i'd do the 16km route in 45 minutes, but haven't tested that.

the notion that the upper speed limit has an effect on commuting times in the city is funny.

Dockerboy

This is back on DCC (Owen Keegans) agenda despite losing the vote only last September.
Meetings with local councillors were held last week and continues today at 2pm.
Zero difference in any proposals, just seems to be splitting the city into the 5 areas. Perhaps divide and conquer?

cnocbui

magicbastarder wrote: »

google is showing a 45 minute drive at the moment for the 16km trip from my house to my office (which i haven't done since january). it's from the northside to leopardstown.
i can cycle it in about 50 minutes - using a longer 19.5km route - and the vast majority of the cycle is done at about 30km/h or under.
i reckon i'd do the 16km route in 45 minutes, but haven't tested that.

the notion that the upper speed limit has an effect on commuting times in the city is funny.

Some people would make journeys that are not just a commute and at times when traffic is lighter, I'd imagine?

is_that_so

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Such nonsense. Speed limits are not indicative of average speeds. The average speed in Dublin for commuters won't even approach 30kmh. This just removes those spikes at 50kph that are really not safe in a city centre. You are just scaremongering and throwing out ridiculous stereotypes. Donald.

Let's start fishing for actual evidence. Oh, my first google. 5% increase in commute time:

https://edmontonjournal.com/opinion/columnists/opinion-science-backs-the-safety-of-30-kmh-limits

And as this shows, people need to stop with the bull about "my car can't drive that slow" when the truth is "you can't drive that slow":

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0386111212000362

It's quite a chore to drive for long in 2/3 gear with half an eye on the speed all the time. People break 30 kph virtually all the time. In heavy traffic sure it's often below that, but at quieter times plenty of scope to drive closer to current limits. This is not about science, this is an aggressive agenda by Keegan to force all traffic with 4 wheels or more out of the city centre regardless and replace it with an ill thought out strategy, some of whose parts may not be in place for a decade or more.

Seth Brundle

is_that_so wrote: »

It's quite a chore to drive for long in 2/3 gear with half an eye on the speed all the time. People break 30 kph virtually all the time. In heavy traffic sure it's often below that, but at quieter times plenty of scope to drive closer to current limits.

People exceed the 30km/hr limit simply because they can not because they find it difficult or whatever. If there was proper enforcement, people would make sure that they drive within the limit.

is_that_so wrote: »

This is not about science, this is an aggressive agenda by Keegan to force all traffic with 4 wheels or more out of the city centre regardless and replace it with an ill thought out strategy, some of whose parts may not be in place for a decade or more.

Yawn. Keegan is so unfair with his plans, etc. :rolleyes:

CramCycle

is_that_so wrote: »

It's quite a chore to drive for long in 2/3 gear with half an eye on the speed all the time.

It's really not, if you find it is, possibly get an automatic or stop driving, it is not difficult.

People break 30 kph virtually all the time.

A sign of lack of enforcement, nothing more.

In heavy traffic sure it's often below that, but at quieter times plenty of scope to drive closer to current limits.

So make it more dangerous for people outside of peak traffic times?!?

This is not about science, this is an aggressive agenda by Keegan to force all traffic with 4 wheels or more out of the city centre regardless and replace it with an ill thought out strategy, some of whose parts may not be in place for a decade or more.

Slower is safer, it will encourage more to take PT or consider alternative forms of transport and lets call a spade a spade, people advocating within city centres for faster speed limits or to keep limits higher than they need to be in built up areas are just being selfish. As someone who driver regularly for work, it is just making excuses for the truth that you want to get around faster and potential consequences of this are outside of your concern.

Amirani

is_that_so wrote: »

It's quite a chore to drive for long in 2/3 gear with half an eye on the speed all the time. People break 30 kph virtually all the time. In heavy traffic sure it's often below that, but at quieter times plenty of scope to drive closer to current limits. This is not about science, this is an aggressive agenda by Keegan to force all traffic with 4 wheels or more out of the city centre regardless and replace it with an ill thought out strategy, some of whose parts may not be in place for a decade or more.

Loads of cities around Europe have been implementing 30kph default, it's not some special strategy from Dublin City Council, they're following the pack. It's part of the Stockholm Declaration: https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/belgium-all-news/98187/flanders-hesitant-about-introducing-30-km-h-speed-limit-as-new-normal-stockholm-declaration-mobility-speed-zone-road-safety

Already in place in Brussels, Oslo, Helsinki amongst others.

is_that_so

Seth Brundle wrote: »

People exceed the 30km/hr limit simply because they can not because they find it difficult or whatever. If there was proper enforcement, people would make sure that they drive within the limit.


Yawn. Keegan is so unfair with his plans, etc. :rolleyes:

Well that's juvenile but about the level of some in the debate on this. Nobody has supported them and they require other, missing, components.

is_that_so

CramCycle wrote: »

It's really not, if you find it is, possibly get an automatic or stop driving, it is not difficult.
A sign of lack of enforcement, nothing more.
So make it more dangerous for people outside of peak traffic times?!?
Slower is safer, it will encourage more to take PT or consider alternative forms of transport and lets call a spade a spade, people advocating within city centres for faster speed limits or to keep limits higher than they need to be in built up areas are just being selfish. As someone who driver regularly for work, it is just making excuses for the truth that you want to get around faster and potential consequences of this are outside of your concern.

And there's that simplistic conclusion that people are just against it, along with a particularly inane solution to the problem. I'm fine with it, as needed. I also think the new cycling infrastructure we've had since COVID started is great. My issue is a plan needs to consider all road users, his doesn't.

Thelonious Monk

is_that_so wrote: »

And there's that simplistic conclusion that people are just against it, along with a particularly inane solution to the problem. I'm fine with it, as needed. I also think the new cycling infrastructure we've had since COVID started is great. My issue is a plan needs to consider all road users, his doesn't.

But you can drive anywhere in Dublin now, including city centre, and park on street. Which road users aren't being considered? The only road users not being considered are generally pedestrians and cyclists, a few bike lanes put in and people are saying DCC are destroying the city, it's bizarre.

John_Rambo

Looking very likely to go ahead. North Central Area Committee zoom meeting not getting a lot of opposition.

Seth Brundle

is_that_so wrote: »

Well that's juvenile but about the level of some in the debate on this. Nobody has supported them and they require other, missing, components.

Which bit is juvenile?
Where I pointed out that peoplegenerally don't try to drive within a 30km/h limit because it isn't enforced or the bit where I mocked your paraniod conspiracy theory that Keegan is trying to "force all traffic with 4 wheels or more out of the city centre regardless"?

CramCycle

is_that_so wrote: »

And there's that simplistic conclusion that people are just against it, along with a particularly inane solution to the problem.

Thats not what I said, having lived in Dublin city centre for most of my life (not anymore) but with several friends and family who still do, I have yet to meet anyone who is against it in real life, which to me suggests the voices against are loud online blowhards rather than a realistic view from the residents of DCC.

I'm fine with it, as needed. I also think the new cycling infrastructure we've had since COVID started is great. My issue is a plan needs to consider all road users, his doesn't.

How so? Every road user is catered for, it just seems to be a small bit safer for more vulnerable road users, mainly pedestrians.

jams100

We're back again it seems

https://consultation.dublincity.ie/t...30km-h-survey/

Another one of these blanket 30km/h proposals from Dcc.

Check out the map below, basically 90% of areas within DCC they want to become a 30km/h zone!

https://consultation.dublincity.ie/t...01.04.2021.pdf

An example of why these sort of proposals (in their current format) are ridiculous is Conyngham or even Merrion road which are both proposed to become 30km/h zones.

Conyngham road is a straight wide road with a segregated cycle track for example, how the f**k is that deemed to be in need of a 30km/h limit? Where is the proportionality between road safety and common sense?

Most of the segregated cycles lanes built in Dublin city have been a good idea, both for motorists and cyclists and the current 30km/h limits in the likes of Dame street, Capel street, O'Connell Street, sections of quays, around schools etc. all make sense but applying these measures broadly to areas they aren't appropriate for just makes a mockery of the entire 30km/h limit areas that have been introduced to date.

Without evidence of why these limits are proposed on each road then these proposals are just anti-car.
Its about time that public officials stop using the "protecting lives" argument to force through their agendas, if there is good rational as to why 30km/h should be introduced for certain roads then by all means put it out there, I'd be likely to agree with it then but this current proposal is a joke.

Zebra3

is_that_so wrote: »

People break 30 kph virtually all the time.

Yep, that's the contempt motorists have for the law.

And when they're caught it always seems to be the guard who they slate.

cnocbui

Zebra3 wrote: »

Yep, that's the contempt motorists have for the law.

And when they're caught it always seems to be the guard who they slate.

Stupid laws and decisions should be held in contempt. When a motorway was built near me, the existing N road - a road built and enginered to be safe for 100 kph traffic, lost 98% of it's traffic, making it intrisically safer, but the numpties reduced the speed limit to 80 kph.

Anyone still doing 100 kph on that road, while obviously still doing something intrisically safe, were legally in the wrong, which they shouldn't have been.

Eventually someone saw sense and reinstated the 100 kph limit.

30 kph is ridiculous. It ought to lead to increased congestion and might therefore actually lead to more accidents as the throughput of the system is reduced, meaning for any given period of time, there will be more cars on the road as it takes each of them longer to complete their journys, on average,

Seth Brundle

Batrachotox wrote: »

the virgins tabling this certainly have no notion of living in areas poorly served by public transport.

Like where?

Hamsterchops

magicbastarder wrote: »

14/09/2020 the latest changes have been kicked to touch by the council. if twitter is to be believed, it was really only the greens and soc dems who voted to push ahead (though that could be in relation to the cycle lane on strand road possibly).

Kicked into touch ...

Looks like they're back again for another go :cool:

Seth Brundle

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Like where?

Before you go listing bus routes serving different areas I’ll just give you a real world example.

If I lived in say, Deansgrange and I want to go to Ikea to pick up a few bits it’s gonna take me at least twice as long (if not more) on the bus or cycling. Many people work long hours and don’t have much free time, they don’t want to waste their valuable spare time sauntering around at 30kmph when doing errands.
Not to mention the fact that I can’t bring much back on the bike or on the bus (whether that’s a bedside locker from ikea, a full shop from lidl or a sack of compost from woodies etc etc.).
Or maybe I’ve got my young child with me and I don’t feel like sitting there trying to placate them on the bus for over an hour while they cry and piss everyone else off.
Or maybe we want to take the dogs out for a nice walk somewhere further afield as family, cycling and PT not an option.

Look I can tell you’re big into the cycling but it’s just not always convenient (or even feasible) as option for many instances of travel for a variety of reasons. All for increasing the amounts of cyclists through constructive measures (like building new cycleways etc) but this kind of militant 30kmph BS is mostly just going to piss people off.

Thelonious Monk

Wouldn't you just use the M50?

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Wouldn't you just use the M50?

Depends on the time and the day.

M50 already has some issues with congestion - what’s going to happen when everyone is using it to get anywhere any reasonable distance because driving in Dublin is restricted to a mind numbing 30kmph?

Thelonious Monk

Well personally i wouldnt go near the M50 or IKEA at certain times, choose a time when roads are quiet.

Seth Brundle

Batrachotox wrote: »

Before you go listing bus routes serving different areas I’ll just give you a real world example.

If I lived in say, Deansgrange and I want to go to Ikea to pick up a few bits it’s gonna take me at least twice as long (if not more) on the bus or cycling. Many people work long hours and don’t have much free time, they don’t want to waste their valuable spare time sauntering around at 30kmph when doing errands.
Not to mention the fact that I can’t bring much back on the bike or on the bus (whether that’s a bedside locker from ikea, a full shop from lidl or a sack of compost from woodies etc etc.).
Or maybe I’ve got my young child with me and I don’t feel like sitting there trying to placate them on the bus for over an hour while they cry and piss everyone else off.
Or maybe we want to take the dogs out for a nice walk somewhere further afield as family, cycling and PT not an option.

Look I can tell you’re big into the cycling but it’s just not always convenient (or even feasible) as option for many instances of travel for a variety of reasons. All for increasing the amounts of cyclists through constructive measures (like building new cycleways etc) but this kind of militant 30kmph BS is mostly just going to piss people off.

If you don't want to have to drive under a 30km/h limit within the areas proposed by Dublin CC, then don't drive there and use alternative routes.
If the various alternative routes don't suit then order online and select home delivery.

Alias G

Batrachotox wrote: »

Before you go listing bus routes serving different areas I’ll just give you a real world example.

If I lived in say, Deansgrange and I want to go to Ikea to pick up a few bits it’s gonna take me at least twice as long (if not more) on the bus or cycling. Many people work long hours and don’t have much free time, they don’t want to waste their valuable spare time sauntering around at 30kmph when doing errands.
Not to mention the fact that I can’t bring much back on the bike or on the bus (whether that’s a bedside locker from ikea, a full shop from lidl or a sack of compost from woodies etc etc.).
Or maybe I’ve got my young child with me and I don’t feel like sitting there trying to placate them on the bus for over an hour while they cry and piss everyone else off.
Or maybe we want to take the dogs out for a nice walk somewhere further afield as family, cycling and PT not an option.

Look I can tell you’re big into the cycling but it’s just not always convenient (or even feasible) as option for many instances of travel for a variety of reasons. All for increasing the amounts of cyclists through constructive measures (like building new cycleways etc) but this kind of militant 30kmph BS is mostly just going to piss people off.

I live beside Deansgrange (which is well served by Dublin Buses flagship route BTW). I can assure you that I manage the full shop, the two young kids, the dog and whatever else your having on a daily basis. Maybe cycling is not for you but it has great utility for a lot of people. But the behavior of a minority of motorists towards cyclists safety is really poor and part of the reason why more people don't take advantage of the benefits of cycling.