Is America losing its allure?

realdanbreen

jimgoose wrote: »

There was a time when the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave could credibly claim to be just that,

The only time it could be justifiably called that was prior to the 16th century when European colonisation began and as has happened in so many countries including our own the natives were terrorised and downtrodden and their lands seized.

partyguinness

And neo liberal apologists and trickle down economists still give it the "A rising tide raises all boats" nonsense to justify tax cuts.

But yet they cannot explain why the gap between the richest and poorest has rockted since 1980 (when Reagan was elected).

Rodin

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Wealth inequality in the States versus Western Europe:





That's all the info I need to convince me to stay this side of the pond...

I've always been a believer that it doesn't matter what's in someone else's pocket. The only thing that matters to me personally is what's in my own pocket.

The 'poor' in Ireland have never been so well off.

Motivator

Motivator wrote: »

Up until about 7 or 8 years ago America was an exceptional place to live and visit. I was lucky enough to experience living there for a total of 6 years and I’ve been to a huge amount of cities dotted around the country. I moved back to Ireland in 2011 after 4 years and had done two twelve month stints and bits and pieces of travel for work. The people were great, infrastructure, facilities, sights and sounds were all first class in my experience but before I moved home I noticed a change a couple of years into Obama’s first term and the country never recovered in my opinion.

I haven’t been back in the country since Trump has been in office but I have family and friends who tell me the country is a shadow of its former self in lots of ways. At the moment, the country is broken from top to bottom and it’s a time bomb. Something serious is going to happen very soon and it’s scary to think of what it might be. With Trump stirring the pot and his supporters no longer hiding like they used to, things could take a serious turn.

For those who say America never appealed to them, if you had been lucky enough to have the same experiences that I and countless others had then your views would be different. I know people that went over in the 80s with quite literally nothing to their name and made fortunes through nothing but hard work. America was the country that gave people a chance to prove themselves but sadly that doesn’t seem to the case any longer. Not everyone will think the same as me of course but I don’t like people who visit a tourist hotspot, didn’t like it and formed their opinion of the whole country on that one experience. It’s like tourists coming to Ireland but only visiting the Guinness storehouse or the GPO, not liking it and then going home to tell their friends Ireland is a ****hole.

But if folk formed there view that it never appealed post 2011 then there's no problem?

Or if they formed their opinion over being there several times & after visiting various non tourist hotspots?

TBH I never really had much interest in going to the US while growing up. It just didn't seem that different since there appeared to be so many cultural similarities. Later as an adult, I went there as part of work, visiting a few cities, but wasn't impressed by the attitudes shown by the professionals I'd met. Although, that seems more to do with where (NY/Washington). In any case, I returned a few times thereafter to visit friends I'd met in Asia, and stayed in a variety of US states for a month at a time.

Apart from food (Southern BBQ is incredible), and music (amazing choice in venues to attend) I wasn't ever terribly impressed with the US. It seemed very hyped. Beyond the financial or main shopping areas, most areas had a rundown look. In many ways, it reminded me of Chinese cities, where the main tourist/shopping areas are gorgeous but once outside those zones, you quickly hit poorer sections with rundown infrastructure. Sure, there are prize cities which are well funded/maintained but even then, it was relatively easy to find very rundown or seedy areas. LA would be a good example of that. Lots of fun in the wealthy areas, but walking on edge in many other parts of the city. Few cities ever gave me the feeling of safety in the evening time.

I dunno. I'm biased because my interests have always been focused on the East. I'm more interested in Asian or Eastern European/Russian culture. There are definitely some attractions for me about the US, but honestly, in recent years, it's just not worth the investment of time/money. Although I still like/enjoy the Southern states for the cultural honesty, music and amazing food. Not somewhere I'd want to live though.

partyguinness

Whatever about the US, I have been living in England for the past 10 years and I have seen with my own eyes the rates of poverty increase.

I have seen food banks pop up all over the place- now they are spoken about as a normal part of life.

I'll admit I live in an affluent town (in the top 10 for the whole country) but I even heard that a food bank has opened up locally barely half a mile from private estates with houses costing £2-3m with premiership footballers.

I have personally seen a Rolls Royce parked up in a car park and drug addicts passed out in the nearby bush. Weird.

Before it was in the usual gritty inner city slum areas 'somewhere else' but it's now getting closer and closer. The amount of working poor here is frightening.

If things went tits up for me I would be straight back to Ireland- there is no way I would stay in England. The 40k odd C19 deaths- no problem. Sure it's just nature having a cull.

They really do not give a **** over here and good luck getting any support- the Gov and Local Authorities make it as hard as humanly possible.

I know Ireland has plenty of problems llike any other country but I know where I would rather be stuck if I was down on my luck.

TheIrishGrover

I've said it before in other threads but I am really sad to see what has happened to America over the last few years. Or probably more accurately, the fact that we are seeing the real America.

I spent about 2 years there between 98 and 2000 in Minnesota and I loved the place: I loved the optimism, the people were extremely friendly (To the point of stereotype - Minnesota Nice).

But there was always an undercurrent. Leaving the hotel one day to go to work, the guy at the car park barrier goes: "You guys are from Ireland? You got it great. No snow and no Goddamn n*ggers". To total strangers he said this. Not knowing our opinions on the matter. We were shocked but nervously laughed it off among ourselves as just a crazy guy. And we didn't see many more examples of overt racism.... for a long time. (As the Somali population increased there it started to take a nasty turn)

It was the rampant capitalism that shocked us then and still does: Do not get me wrong - I am not a socialist. I studied hard and worked hard for my money. My standard of living may be higher than some others but that is down to hard work, constant re-education and, yes, a bit of luck being in the right career at the right time. I do not agree that there should be an equal wage for all. That is not workable (And a conversation for another thread).

However I DO believe that we should support those that require it. I believe in unemployment benefit, health care, etc. I find the lack of support for those in need in the US simply shocking. People are simply abandoned. By the time you add up state, federal, sales and other taxes, they are taxed reasonably similiarly to someone on the higher band here (Although things like overtime, bonuses, extra jobs etc are not taxed NEARLY as hard as here). But what I mean is that people pay their taxes. But they get NOTHING in return:

• No Country-wide guaranteed paid Maternity Leave!!! Zero!
• No Country-wide guaranteed paid vacation time
• A medical system in shambles/non-existant (A co-worker broke their little there. Just smashed it off the bed post and snapped it to the left. Painful but not exactly requiring a transplant - It cost 2500 dollars in 2000 money to wrap it in bandage)

It seems that huge swathes of money are invested in their military and extremely heavily-armed police force.

I'm a middle-aged middle-class (Although came from MUCH poorer conditions) while straight male so I cannot say I have experienced the fear/casual institutional oppression. But the difference between the have and have-nots is MUCH worse in the US and is actually shocking to the rest of the developed world.

Again, I am not a socialist, I believe working hard, studying, earning a decent wage and the opportunity to earn more if possible. But not at the expense of others as in the US.

As others have said before, my generation (70's/80's) was brought up on Dallas, Miami Vice, glossy music videos etc (I know, I know... Don't go there, OK? ). And America was the place to go to if you wanted to make money and have a flash car. Living the dream.

But the fact that people in the richest country in the world have to have two jobs to feed their family, that cancer there is more likely to cripple some financially rather than medically, where that country chooses to endanger an entire world's ecosystem for no reason other than profit, (And in an Orwellian Twist, uses their own Environmental Protection Agency to REDUCE efficiency on cars and PROMOTE fossil fuels), where any form of empathy for others is considered weak, socialist...... even traitorous? There is nothing alluring there or worth emulating in a modern, 21st Century world.

The Raging Bile Duct

Rodin wrote: »

I've always been a believer that it doesn't matter what's in someone else's pocket. The only thing that matters to me personally is what's in my own pocket.

The 'poor' in Ireland have never been so well off.

That really has nothing to do with the graphs I've shown. Wealth distribution has flipped on its head in the States in the last 40 years with the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. If you want to know what's causing tension in the States those graphs are a handy way of explaining it.

partyguinness

I only saw blatant racsim once in my time in the US. I'll admit I worked with 99% white people in the business centre so very sheltered.

At the Canadian border, the US border patrol had emptied our bus for passport checks. We all queued up with our bags for searches. Of the 30 or so people on the bus maybe 7-8 were African American. This was a Greyhound Bus not a private bus. Every single one of the African Americans were pulled out of the queue for pat downs and additonal aggressive questionning. Not a single white person.

This was in 1999.

LiquidZeb

I find it a bit of a laugh to be honest when people in Ireland criticise Americans for being materialistic. I'd argue in that regard we're more American than the Americans themselves. We didn't have to get a bailout 10 years ago because we lived like Buddhist monks.

I don't like the streak I see in Irish people of looking down their nose at the States as there's plenty that could be levied against us. We used to hemmorage young people as recently as a decade ago to immigration so maybe we should get our own house in order first.

The bailout was largely nothing to do with personal debt..... & hemmerage to immigration...... 😂

Edgware

partyguinness wrote: »

Whatever about the US, I have been living in England for the past 10 years and I have seen with my own eyes the rates of poverty increase.

I have seen food banks pop up all over the place- now they are spoken about as a normal part of life.

I'll admit I live in an affluent town (in the top 10 for the whole country) but I even heard that a food bank has opened up locally barely half a mile from private estates with houses costing £2-3m with premiership footballers.

I have personally seen a Rolls Royce parked up in a car park and drug addicts passed out in the nearby bush. Weird.

Before it was in the usual gritty inner city slum areas 'somewhere else' but it's now getting closer and closer. The amount of working poor here is frightening.

If things went tits up for me I would be straight back to Ireland- there is no way I would stay in England. The 40k odd C19 deaths- no problem. Sure it's just nature having a cull.

They really do not give a **** over here and good luck getting any support- the Gov and Local Authorities make it as hard as humanly possible.

I know Ireland has plenty of problems llike any other country but I know where I would rather be stuck if I was down on my luck.

I agree about England as I am a regular visitor to cities like London Birmingham Liverpool and big towns. You can almost feel the poverty. Charity shops/Bookies in High Streets.
Poor standard of clothing, high levels of obesity, smoking, alcohol

jrosen

LiquidZeb wrote: »

I find it a bit of a laugh to be honest when people in Ireland criticise Americans for being materialistic. I'd argue in that regard we're more American than the Americans themselves. We didn't have to get a bailout 10 years ago because we lived like Buddhist monks.

I don't like the streak I see in Irish people of looking down their nose at the States as there's plenty that could be levied against us. We used to hemmorage young people as recently as a decade ago to immigration so maybe we should get our own house in order first.

I absolutely agree on the materialism. We found Ireland to be much worse than the US.

lawrencesummers

Mark Beaumont has a great book about cycling around the world. Went though some war torn countries where travel advisories existed from his home government (UK)

The only place he was robbed??? The greatest country in the world.


I’ve lived in the US for a few years, seen most of the east coast. Have never wanted to revisit when you have places on our doorstep here like Barcelona, Croatia, France, Scotland.

LiquidZeb

Augeo wrote: »

The bailout was largely nothing to do with personal debt..... & hemmerage to immigration...... 😂

As recently as 2013 we had 90,000 people leaving due to emigration annually so I don't know why you're laughing at what I said. Irish people have gotten very materialistic, look at shows like room to improve where people spend thousands and thousands pimping out their McMansions. While I might've been incorrect stating that 2008 was solely due to personal debt the multiple mortgages and keeping up with the Joneses bull**** played a part too.

The Raging Bile Duct

LiquidZeb wrote: »

I find it a bit of a laugh to be honest when people in Ireland criticise Americans for being materialistic. I'd argue in that regard we're more American than the Americans themselves. We didn't have to get a bailout 10 years ago because we lived like Buddhist monks.

I don't like the streak I see in Irish people of looking down their nose at the States as there's plenty that could be levied against us. We used to hemmorage young people as recently as a decade ago to immigration so maybe we should get our own house in order first.

Hmmm, there's great swathes of Irish people who wouldn't be overtly materialistic or indulge in profligate spending. Are they not allowed to comment on what they see as the problems caused by the type of capitalism espoused by the US because other people in Ireland are reckless spenders?

And just because a person criticises the problems in America and prefers the systems in place in most of Western Europe doesn't mean they are not very critical of aspects of life, fiscal strategies and government policies here. It's just that they are not as bad as the trainwreck that America is becoming.

Snow Garden

I envisage scary times for America the way the unemployment rate is going. I think it will hit 30% or more in the next 12 months.
It wont take much to light multiple powder kegs. Too many guns and militias could lead to anarchy.
I wonder could we even see the potential breakup of the union being suggested in the coming years.

TheIrishGrover

LiquidZeb wrote: »

I find it a bit of a laugh to be honest when people in Ireland criticise Americans for being materialistic. I'd argue in that regard we're more American than the Americans themselves. We didn't have to get a bailout 10 years ago because we lived like Buddhist monks.

I don't like the streak I see in Irish people of looking down their nose at the States as there's plenty that could be levied against us. We used to hemmorage young people as recently as a decade ago to immigration so maybe we should get our own house in order first.

There is a difference between being materialistic and casting aside huge sections of your population for the sake of greed.

I like my stuff: I have a nice house, TVs, car, games consoles. I like to go out to the pub and restaurant. But I also believe that people should be treated like human biengs.

I am of the generation that lost so many people to emmigration. Nobody is saying that we are perfect but the question was asked: Has America lost its allure? And people are answering.

You have a leader who states that Hispanics a drug dealers.... Not SOME.... He was asked to clarify. Given a chance to prove he wasn't taken out of context and chose not to. You have a population of all races who have to work 80 hours a week simply to eat!!!! In 2020!

How can that be justified? How can the richest country in the world treat its own people in such a way?

How can Ireland (for example) provide more Paternity leave (Not knocking it - I think it's right). How can we provide more Paternity Leave than America provides to a woman who has had a baby?

There is a difference between materialism - which is human nature - and simply casting others aside.

How do you simply ignore the vulnerable? We have our issues. EVERY single country does. But my God...... This contempt for the vulnerable and those who are deemed to not be part of The Americ Dream is Government Policy. It is state sanctioned.

Niallof9

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Has After Hours become a forum relegated to uneducated minds regurgitating media fed opinions but no real world experience ?

Any opinions you might have would be inadmissible in court as hearsay.
You hear all these things from the TV and internet only.

America is the leading example of unregulated capitalism.
Winners will succeed.
Losers will live in poverty, resent and lash out at the rest of society for their own failures.

Middle class American is just fine, people have jobs, nice houses and all the economies of scale that a larger country brings. Apart from being ripped off by mobile, cable and internet providers.

at this stage this description could perhaps be applied to many countries. Obviously its far worse in America with no real social safety nets and some truly awful societal problems but again they were about 50 years ahead of most of the World. I work with a good few Scandinavians and they see Ireland and UK as mini extensions of the US (coming from a similar sized country). Unfettered old school capitalism (including all the grind of inflexible 9-5 and ****ting on low paid workers ) is beginning to splutter hard.

tom_murphy112

LiquidZeb wrote: »

I find it a bit of a laugh to be honest when people in Ireland criticise Americans for being materialistic. I'd argue in that regard we're more American than the Americans themselves. We didn't have to get a bailout 10 years ago because we lived like Buddhist monks.

I don't like the streak I see in Irish people of looking down their nose at the States as there's plenty that could be levied against us. We used to hemmorage young people as recently as a decade ago to immigration so maybe we should get our own house in order first.

I think there is a big difference between materialism and capitalism.

Materialism = Everyone wants nice things, who doesn't. Go to any communist country and you will see it there as well

Capitalism = If you can make a profit out of anything, sure why not !
In the US, if you are dying and someone can make a quick buck out of you, they will.

I work with a lot of Americans and I get a sense that they (not all) are taught anything that isn't capitalism is communism, no ifs or buts.

Agricola

America has always been a cesspit of greed, corruption, excess and inequality. The problem now is there are less and less crumbs falling from the tables of the wealthy for the plebs to fight over.

KiKi III

I think growing up in the 90s when Clinton was president, America wasn’t at war and they were helping us with our peace process I had a starry-eyed view of the States that older people who remembered Korea/ Vietnam/ the first Gulf
War maybe didn’t share.

I fully bought into the American Dream. Sadly for most, it really is just a dream.

TheBoyConor

LiquidZeb wrote: »

I find it a bit of a laugh to be honest when people in Ireland criticise Americans for being materialistic. I'd argue in that regard we're more American than the Americans themselves. We didn't have to get a bailout 10 years ago because we lived like Buddhist monks.

I don't like the streak I see in Irish people of looking down their nose at the States as there's plenty that could be levied against us. We used to hemmorage young people as recently as a decade ago to immigration so maybe we should get our own house in order first.

The materialistic types in Ireland were in a lot of cases just those who wanted to ape the yanks and their lifestyle.
Then at the first sign of trouble, when the going got tough, they ran away to America, they ran away from the recession, but we stayed.

How can Ireland (for example) provide more Paternity leave (Not knocking it - I think it's right). How can we provide more Paternity Leave than America provides to a woman who has had a baby?

Well one reason for that is that Artilce 41 of Bunreacht na hEireann, the state pledges to "ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home." That gives rise to laws for things like parental leave, childrens allowance, unmarried mothers' allowance, maternity benefit etc.
This is then also reinforced by Article 34 of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.

The USA bill of rights or constitution does not appear to make any references to the rights of the family comparable to those guaranteed by Bunreacht na hEireann and the EU Charter.

The USA is a socially degenerate nation.

mr_fegelien

KiKi III wrote: »

I think growing up in the 90s when Clinton was president, America wasn’t at war and they were helping us with our peace process I had a starry-eyed view of the States that older people who remembered Korea/ Vietnam/ the first Gulf
War maybe didn’t share.

I fully bought into the American Dream. Sadly for most, it really is just a dream.

They call it the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.

Ultrflat

There's been a lot of great things to come out of America, jazz, blues, hip-hop some seriously amazing looking cars. The technology alone have also been so useful. I think Americas to big and built its laws and attitudes on the past, such as the voting system in the Deep south, the collage electorate. These are all aspects of american politics that don't help they seem to be a very right wing nation. Things like affordable health care I saw some one receive a statement from a hospital for $842,000.00 which is disgraceful.

Realistically Americas System needs radical overhauling.

partyguinness

The same conversation took place in 1992 after the Rodney King beatings- what was changed? Not a lot.

This latest shindig will fizzle out soon enough.

partyguinness

partyguinness wrote: »

The same conversation took place in 1992 after the Rodney King beatings- what was changed? Not a lot.

This latest shindig will fizzle out soon enough.

I'm not so sure. I think politics in America is vastly different from that era. The Democratic party is on the verge of splitting. The days of niceness and decorum are gone.

Keyzer

mr_fegelien wrote: »

They call it the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.

You should at least cite the quote instead of passing it off as your own.

George Carlin for anyone who is interested.

mr_fegelien

One reason I'm glad I don't live in the States is there harsh laws. I probably said it a while back on here but I forged a script and was given a caution. Had I done what I did in America, I'd still probably be in jail with a felony conviction.

They don't **** around with the law there. Harsh penalties for many things. But it doesn't make things better as they have the largest prison population of any country in the world and any developed country.

partyguinness

Keyzer wrote: »

You should at least cite the quote instead of passing it off as your own.

George Carlin for anyone who is interested.

and it was already quoted here yesterday by another poster. Wait for the new thread..