Ash Dieback

magicbastarder

well, you were trying to rescue yours!

biddyearley

magicbastarder wrote: »

+1
there's a certain breed/generation of irish person who just loves the sound of a chainsaw; i'd hate to see this turn into open season on ash, dressed up as being helpful.

True.


But where it poses a danger to life and limb. A careful evaluation of the state of individual trees, and a gradual removal. Ash leaf is a terrific soil improver and thought should be given into what to replace it with.Then there's the almost 1000 organisms that ash supports from fungi to lichens and vertebrates/invertebrates. Some serious thought needs to be devoted to the replacement of ash.


https://www.forestresearch.gov.uk/documents/168/FCRN029_47fT2pu.pdf

biddyearley

macraignil wrote: »

I am not sure where you have got the 2% survival figure

96-98% mortality infection has been reported, in stands across Europe, some stands 85%, but of surviving trees only a small minority were healthy.


https://nph.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/ppp3.11

hirondelle

To open the discussion out slightly- I think roadside ash need to be looked at (and I hate saying it), but to be erring on the side of caution in terms of safety. But beyond that, I think ash that are on private land (not a risk to the public) should be left as long as possible- we have to identify that 2% (or higher given Biddeyearlys' range) to grow from them.

I was born in 68, so my parents made me very aware of the fact that there used to be elm trees all over Ireland and they were gone by the time I was growing up. I hate the thought that there may be kids in a few years who might not have seen an ash.

So apart from providing a mix of species, is there any tree that people would like to see become the replacement tree specifically for the roadside ash that are removed? If scots pine wasn't so inclined to drop branches I would love to see it, I fear that oaks are going to be under pressure, rowan, birch too short lived, so any suggestions?

Dempo1

hirondelle wrote: »

To open the discussion out slightly- I think roadside ash need to be looked at (and I hate saying it), but to be erring on the side of caution in terms of safety. But beyond that, I think ash that are on private land (not a risk to the public) should be left as long as possible- we have to identify that 2% (or higher given Biddeyearlys' range) to grow from them.

I was born in 68, so my parents made me very aware of the fact that there used to be elm trees all over Ireland and they were gone by the time I was growing up. I hate the thought that there may be kids in a few years who might not have seen an ash.

So apart from providing a mix of species, is there any tree that people would like to see become the replacement tree specifically for the roadside ash that are removed? If scots pine wasn't so inclined to drop branches I would love to see it, I fear that oaks are going to be under pressure, rowan, birch too short lived, so any suggestions?

Personally my favourite is the Mountain Ash (completely different species /family) to Native Ash , I'm not sure how they'd survive along roadsides etc but a really beautiful tree, the bright red berries on mine about to come out, blackbirds love them.

I would be very pessimistic about the future of Ash, probably as much because it's my nature as anything, but I don't think there is any true resistance to DED among even native Wych Elm. Any trees I have seen, or read or been told about have some physical distance or extreme climatic factor preventing infection. Ash Dieback is more easily spread, I suppose the manner of death is often slower, ie over a couple of years. Even survivors may be gaunt stag headed things. I don't know.

I'm not refuting any of the stats, I might delve into them some day to depress myself even more.

International trade , especially intercontinental trade in trees and wood products has done unbelievable, irreparable damage to many tree species. Forestry is doing its best to commit suicide by a thousand cuts. Even native woodland planting uses acorns sometimes sourced from Holland still I think.

As far as replacement, in unmanaged woodland, amenity etc, Sycamore is likely to take up even more of the slack, it does support a huge biodiversity. I would love to see our two Oaks encouraged more, outside of Oakwoods and plantations. Oliver Rackham discussed how, although they may have been climax woodland trees in the past, they seem to struggle to regenerate in woodland now. Hedgerows and seminatural pasture would suit them, and they can grow fairly quickly. Roadsides are another matter - the management is usually so brutal only certain species thrive.

biddyearley

hirondelle wrote: »

To open the discussion out slightly- I think roadside ash need to be looked at (and I hate saying it), but to be erring on the side of caution in terms of safety. But beyond that, I think ash that are on private land (not a risk to the public) should be left as long as possible- we have to identify that 2% (or higher given Biddeyearlys' range) to grow from them.

I was born in 68, so my parents made me very aware of the fact that there used to be elm trees all over Ireland and they were gone by the time I was growing up. I hate the thought that there may be kids in a few years who might not have seen an ash.

So apart from providing a mix of species, is there any tree that people would like to see become the replacement tree specifically for the roadside ash that are removed? If scots pine wasn't so inclined to drop branches I would love to see it, I fear that oaks are going to be under pressure, rowan, birch too short lived, so any suggestions?

Sycamore, beech, cherry,lime spp.

hirondelle

Deleted User wrote: »

I would be very pessimistic about the future of Ash, probably as much because it's my nature as anything, but I don't think there is any true resistance to DED among even native Wych Elm. Any trees I have seen, or read or been told about have some physical distance or extreme climatic factor preventing infection. Ash Dieback is more easily spread, I suppose the manner of death is often slower, ie over a couple of years. Even survivors may be gaunt stag headed things. I don't know.

I'm not refuting any of the stats, I might delve into them some day to depress myself even more.

International trade , especially intercontinental trade in trees and wood products has done unbelievable, irreparable damage to many tree species. Forestry is doing its best to commit suicide by a thousand cuts. Even native woodland planting uses acorns sometimes sourced from Holland still I think.

As far as replacement, in unmanaged woodland, amenity etc, Sycamore is likely to take up even more of the slack, it does support a huge biodiversity. I would love to see our two Oaks encouraged more, outside of Oakwoods and plantations. Oliver Rackham discussed how, although they may have been climax woodland trees in the past, they seem to struggle to regenerate in woodland now. Hedgerows and seminatural pasture would suit them, and they can grow fairly quickly. Roadsides are another matter - the management is usually so brutal only certain species thrive.

All interesting points. And I share the depression about it! The way plant passports were brought in after so many diseases had spread- and even now, I went to a well-established nursery to order a number of saplings, I said I would need the plant passports and was met with complete blank looks until one of the managers covered for them (they obviously didn't bother to even train their staff in it).
i think Rackham mentioned the problem with oak was an american mildew that prevented saplings from surviving in mature oakwoods, so therefore oak forests cannot regenerate without human intervention.
Sycamore is one that aappeals to me for roadsides- although it's reputation as a weed doesn't help it's popularity.

magicbastarder

btw, dan buckley is asking people to keep an eye out for lime spreading by seed; IIRC we don't have the conditions suited to allow it to spread, but we're headed that way and it may have already started to happen.

magicbastarder

Deleted User wrote: »

I would be very pessimistic about the future of Ash, probably as much because it's my nature as anything, but I don't think there is any true resistance to DED among even native Wych Elm. Any trees I have seen, or read or been told about have some physical distance or extreme climatic factor preventing infection.

i collected some seeds for that native woodland trust attempt at identifying any potential trees with resistance - and some seem to have germinated.
but my main source of scepticism/curiosity would be - as the seeds seem to be viable, are there other elms nearby? and if not, are they clones of the parent, and possibly the parent has survived due to isolation rather than resistance?

macraignil

I'm not in favour of the more widespread use of sycamore due to the toxicity of its sprouting seeds to horses. The girlfriends family have some so we needed to cut down the sycamore growing in the area to prevent the seeds spreading to the fields where they would be grazing. I think sweet chestnut(Castanea sativa) would be a good candidate for more widespread planting.

biddyearley

macraignil wrote: »

I'm not in favour of the more widespread use of sycamore due to the toxicity of its sprouting seeds to horses. The girlfriends family have some so we needed to cut down the sycamore growing in the area to prevent the seeds spreading to the fields where they would be grazing. I think sweet chestnut(Castanea sativa) would be a good candidate for more widespread planting.

Sweet Chestnut being wiped out in Europe and UK by several diseases, and there is a "voluntary" ban on importation of transplants to Ireland. :mad:
Sorry to be the harbinger of bad news but to be honest we are being assailed by a multitude of entirely preventable diseases.

hirondelle

macraignil wrote: »

I'm not in favour of the more widespread use of sycamore due to the toxicity of its sprouting seeds to horses. The girlfriends family have some so we needed to cut down the sycamore growing in the area to prevent the seeds spreading to the fields where they would be grazing. I think sweet chestnut(Castanea sativa) would be a good candidate for more widespread planting.

Today I learnt! I'm in Kildare, so anything with the word "horse" and "toxic" is going to be a bit problematic. Thansk for that.
Sweet chestnut is a beautiful tree, so it beech, lime, cherry and rowan have been suggested as possible ash replacements, that is an interesting mix. One way or the other, there will be different species growing commonly in Ireland in years to come.

I think one of the things that bothers me most with ash dieback is the complete lack of awareness at the general level. If the ash were planted in one mass and were now under threat, there would be uproar over the loss of our temperate forest. Because so many of them are grown as standards in the hedges it isn't seen to be as pressing an issue- but in many ways (certainly to east Connacht) ash IS the rural landscape and if they disappear, the rural landscape is going to look very empty- to my eye about 80% of hedgerow trees are ash.

standardg60

Would love to see more oak being planted too, and walnut would make a great substitute for ash.

magicbastarder

the canal du midi in france is a world heritage site, absolutely picture postcard perfect canal lined by plane trees along its 200km length.
except that they're cutting down the trees now, they're being killed by a pathogen believed to have arrived with ammo crates from america in WWII.

also, many of the yews in kilmacurragh have been dug up because they've also been hit by a pathogen.

BuboBubo

Most of my ash are showing classic signs of dieback. They're on the boundary ditch between me and my neighbours. They sowed elm about 15 years ago and it all died too (They mistook it for hazel, they look a bit similar).

Hoping to plant some hazel myself, and beech. Obviously I'll talk to the neighbours first before replacing anything, hope they'll agree. It's heartbreaking to see fine healthy trees succumb to this

macraignil

biddyearley wrote: »

Sweet Chestnut being wiped out in Europe and UK by several diseases, and there is a "voluntary" ban on importation of transplants to Ireland. :mad:
Sorry to be the harbinger of bad news but to be honest we are being assailed by a multitude of entirely preventable diseases.

Not sure what your emoji is meant to represent but on reading your point I tried to look up sweet chestnut disease and a type of blight is the first one to come up in the search. It does make sense to limit imports of sweet chestnut plants to Ireland since according to the page on the disease I found it is still not found in Ireland which is a situation I hope continues. The sweet chestnut growing here seem to be doing well anyway and red squirrels are said to particularly like the tree.



I don't think there is any tree not effected by some disease so variety in what is planted will be key to maintaining a good level of tree cover in Ireland in my opinion. One of the nicer trees in my own garden is a Japanese zelkova which I only recently read can be attacked by Dutch elm disease as it is related to elm so I think reading too much about disease in trees may not be the best way to get enjoyment out of the garden. Planted lots of variety including some only possible to grow from seed I collected myself as they are not available from commercial nurseries so the hope would be that not all are killed by one of the potential tree diseases. Beech, cherry and lime seem to be doing well here as well.

magicbastarder

i've a lovely escallonia in the garden, fifteen foot tall with a maybe 20 foot spread, that i'll have to remove soon. it's gone terminal, has been attacked by a fungus.
a pity, it flowers in october so is usually one of the only things around flowering at that time we'd be used to seeing it covered in butterflies and emerging queen bees, doing their last pitstops before hibernating for the winter.

biddyearley

macraignil wrote: »

Not sure what your emoji is meant to represent but on reading your point I tried to look up sweet chestnut disease and a type of blight is the first one to come up in the search. It does make sense to limit imports of sweet chestnut plants to Ireland since according to the page on the disease I found it is still not found in Ireland which is a situation I hope continues. The sweet chestnut growing here seem to be doing well anyway and red squirrels are said to particularly like the tree.

My point is that 30 years ago we had a handful of minor issues that were plant specific. We worried about the spruce bark beetle. Now we have some of the deadliest pathogens.


The treatment of animals and plants with respect to protecting the island is stark. Massive controls on movement of animals, few on plant movement. DAFM refused to consider banning the import of ash plants in the early stages of dieback-they asked for a "voluntary" ban on imports.


Ditto for every other plant. I can legally import 100000 sweet chestnut from France in the morning if I wish, despite the disease being rampant in France.

macraignil

hirondelle wrote: »

So apart from providing a mix of species, is there any tree that people would like to see become the replacement tree specifically for the roadside ash that are removed? If scots pine wasn't so inclined to drop branches I would love to see it, I fear that oaks are going to be under pressure, rowan, birch too short lived, so any suggestions?

biddyearley wrote: »

My point is that 30 years ago we had a handful of minor issues that were plant specific. We worried about the spruce bark beetle. Now we have some of the deadliest pathogens.


The treatment of animals and plants with respect to protecting the island is stark. Massive controls on movement of animals, few on plant movement. DAFM refused to consider banning the import of ash plants in the early stages of dieback-they asked for a "voluntary" ban on imports.


Ditto for every other plant. I can legally import 100000 sweet chestnut from France in the morning if I wish, despite the disease being rampant in France.

I was just suggesting sweet chestnut as a possible replacement for Ash in some circumstances but as you have pointed out there are diseases that have effected the tree and some of these have yet to reach Ireland. I am not making any case for free importation of trees that could bring a serious disease into the country that has not been found here before. I just mentioned sycamore you suggested has a potential issue with toxicity for horses from its seeds and I also am aware that cherry that you also suggested is effected by some serious diseases(including silver leaf) and I have read it is generally not very long lived and needs to be pruned in summer to avoid contracting these diseases. I don't think we can replace ash with just one tree type but I still would like to see more sweet chestnut planted.

rn

I have to say it's been very easy to grow oak, beech and horse chestnuts all from respective seed gathered from my father in laws. I had over 150 of oak and beech each, but I hadn't the means to progress them. I kept about 10 for year 2 and they are doing super. The other 300 I planted out in March. About 20 of them have survived and progressing nicely. Hares around here do awful damage to young trees.

magicbastarder

standardg60 wrote: »

walnut would make a great substitute for ash.

i do like the idea of trees with edible fruit, plus walnut is lovely timber.

standardg60

magicbastarder wrote: »

i do like the idea of trees with edible fruit, plus walnut is lovely timber.

Close to my parents house there was a new development built on the site of two old cottages, occupied when i was young, which contained the most magnificent walnut tree.
Someone had actually stuck a sign to it saying 'please save this' during construction.
It's still there thankfully.

rn

It's definitely a concern that biological specimens cross the sea border. I guess there's always the problem of our "friends" in the North and that biological pathogens don't recognise the 6 counties border.

Took a wander round my Ash trees tonight. Pleased to say all looking good especially after the last 2 weeks better weather. However there's one, that's spurred from an older tree that fell. It's not looking great. Definitely one for the saw, regardless of whether Ash dieback. It's not dead, but dying and lower branches show no sign of life - brown when broken.

rn

One other tree I plan to try to work with next autumn is Hazel. A lot of it grows here, not as tall as Ash, but attractive, has fruit and makes nice firewood in future years. Hoping to propagate it from cuttings.

bb12

i have horses so am also aware of the sycamore problem. we have a few sycamores on the farm but away from the horse fields. however they really are a prolific tree, the amount of saplings that take off so easily from just a couple of trees is crazy. if the farm was left empty for 10 years i truly believe it would be a sycamore forest. i think they'll definitely be the tree that takes over from ash, they seem hardy and are fast growing

tabby aspreme

rn wrote: »

It's definitely a concern that biological specimens cross the sea border. I guess there's always the problem of our "friends" in the North and that biological pathogens don't recognise the 6 counties border.

Took a wander round my Ash trees tonight. Pleased to say all looking good especially after the last 2 weeks better weather. However there's one, that's spurred from an older tree that fell. It's not looking great. Definitely one for the saw, regardless of whether Ash dieback. It's not dead, but dying and lower branches show no sign of life - brown when broken.

The two trees in the picture both are showing signs of Dieback

Treehelpplease

i was on the Limerick Cork border yesterday and there was diebacck everywhere, especially in younger ones.

Danzy

rn wrote: »

It's definitely a concern that biological specimens cross the sea border. I guess there's always the problem of our "friends" in the North and that biological pathogens don't recognise the 6 counties border.

Took a wander round my Ash trees tonight. Pleased to say all looking good especially after the last 2 weeks better weather. However there's one, that's spurred from an older tree that fell. It's not looking great. Definitely one for the saw, regardless of whether Ash dieback. It's not dead, but dying and lower branches show no sign of life - brown when broken.

Whatever it is, that is not a healthy ash.

Crown thinning out.

I've seen trees like that slowly failing for years, can think of quite a few that are failing decades

Danzy

Treehelpplease wrote: »

i was on the Limerick Cork border yesterday and there was diebacck everywhere, especially in younger ones.

I suppose it is in every townland in the country and if not near enough.