Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Circular Number: 0037/2020

Options
1…1415171920…22

Comments

  • Options
    #482
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    That's what most places seem to have done and, like you, I couldn't see any indication that the person shouldn't be teaching LC. Possible had been decided who they wanted for the job. I've been doing exam aide for a few years and I do all the in house exams too so seems I'm being punished for having two LC classes ��


  • Options
    #483
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    RealJohn wrote: »
    I ticked yes for reasonable accommodations for everyone. It says “any approved reasonable accommodations”. I took it into account where they were approved. I don’t know if anyone applied and wasn’t approved, so I don’t know who ‘not applicable’ necessarily applies to, but ‘yes’ is the appropriate box for everyone, as far as I’m concerned.

    School should have informed you which students have reasonable accommodations and what they are.


  • Options
    #484
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    School should have informed you which students have reasonable accommodations and what they are.
    They did. They didn’t inform us who applied and didn’t get it, nor should they have, or it might have encouraged bias. ‘Not applicable’ would only apply to those who didn’t apply, in my opinion.


  • Options
    #485
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    To me "not applicable" is the appropriate box for anyone not granted RA. You take account of how approved RA would impact the student's performance, or approved RA is not applicable because there were none. I don't think RA that were applied for and not approved are relevant.


  • Options
    #486
    Leftwaffe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭Leftwaffe


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    How do you know? Are you a principal checking the forms?

    I am the calculated grades aide for our school.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #487
    Leftwaffe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭Leftwaffe


    Legend Numerous Fig wrote: »
    To me "not applicable" is the appropriate box for anyone not granted RA. You take account of how approved RA would impact the student's performance, or approved RA is not applicable because there were none. I don't think RA that were applied for and not approved are relevant.

    My main problem with everyone ticking Yes for the RACE part is that it doesn't show that teachers have actually taken into consideration a reasonable Accomodation for those students who actually have one. How do we know for sure they did when they've ticked the box for everyone


  • Options
    #488
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,137 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Redordeadqwwer wrote: »
    My main problem with everyone ticking Yes for the RACE part is that it doesn't show that teachers have actually taken into consideration a reasonable Accomodation for those students who actually have one. How do we know for sure they did when they've ticked the box for everyone

    You don’t
    It’s a problem imo


  • Options
    #489
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Redordeadqwwer wrote: »
    My main problem with everyone ticking Yes for the RACE part is that it doesn't show that teachers have actually taken into consideration a reasonable Accomodation for those students who actually have one. How do we know for sure they did when they've ticked the box for everyone
    I’d have a lot more faith in teachers’ ability to take account of reasonable accommodations than I have in teachers’ ability to make an accurate judgement in the first place. We don’t need to know for sure that they applied it. We’re supposed to trust that they did, like we trust teachers’ professional integrity in other areas.


  • Options
    #490
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    km79 wrote: »
    You don’t
    It’s a problem imo
    No, it isn’t.
    The problem is that teachers can’t make an accurate guess as to their students’ marks. Even if they knew everything they could possibly know about their students, including time spent studying outside of school to the minute, they couldn’t.

    Teachers can be trusted to take account of students with reasonable accommodations. They can’t be trusted to do it consistently or accurately, any more than they can for any other part of this farcical process, but they can be trusted to do it.


  • Options
    #491
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    RealJohn wrote: »
    I’d have a lot more faith in teachers’ ability to take account of reasonable accommodations than I have in teachers’ ability to make an accurate judgement in the first place. We don’t need to know for sure that they applied it. We’re supposed to trust that they did, like we trust teachers’ professional integrity in other areas.

    I don't understand your thinking on this at all. If yes is ticked for everyone, there's no way to be sure the teacher was even aware of RA granted for a student. I think that was the intention behind the box. I think it's essential that we know for certain they accounted for it. You might easily have two students of similar ability who seriously struggle to read the exam paper. One has RA (individual reader) the other doesn't. The impact on the expected grade for each of them is likely significant. Why one has RA and one doesn't is a whole other issue.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #492
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,566 ✭✭✭Treppen


    I work with helping students apply for reasonable accommodations. You'd be very surprised how many times teachers have to be reminded not to apply a spelling and grammar penalty for English despite doing so in the mocks.
    If they haven't remembered to do it by then, then I'd be really seriously worried the teacher will be thinking about the students "poor spelling and grammar" when it comes to predicting a grade (usual LC Exam used to apply this correctly).
    So for a teacher to mark yes for every student it shows that there is a problem.
    Maybe they do know who has RA.
    Maybe they don't.
    If they have just marked yes for a couple of students who had RA then you can nearly be 100% sure they are working off a list.
    If a student has applied for RA and not gotten it then it's not to be taken into account in predictive grades.


  • Options
    #493
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Legend Numerous Fig wrote: »
    I don't understand your thinking on this at all. If yes is ticked for everyone, there's no way to be sure the teacher was even aware of RA granted for a student.
    Yes, there is. We trust teachers’ professional integrity. Why do we trust teachers’ professional integrity for those Croke Park hours that don’t have to be signed off on, but we don’t trust their professional integrity to check which students in their classes have reasonable accommodations granted?


  • Options
    #494
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    RealJohn wrote: »
    Yes, there is. We trust teachers’ professional integrity. Why do we trust teachers’ professional integrity for those Croke Park hours that don’t have to be signed off on, but we don’t trust their professional integrity to check which students in their classes have reasonable accommodations granted?

    I think the 10 CP hours do have to be verified officially but most principals are wiser than that.


  • Options
    #495
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Treppen wrote: »
    So for a teacher to mark yes for every student it shows that there is a problem.
    ...
    If they have just marked yes for a couple of students who had RA then you can nearly be 100% sure they are working off a list.
    I disagree with both of these claims, but particularly the latter. It’s very easy to check the list, and tick the boxes ahead of time, to “make sure you don’t forget”, especially if you’re the type of teacher who doesn’t know how to apply this (which is a lot of teachers) or isn’t inclined to apply it (and those teachers exist).
    The fact that teachers can read a list and check a box proves nothing other than that they have the list.


  • Options
    #496
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    I think the 10 CP hours do have to be verified officially but most principals are wiser than that.
    I believe, and I’m open to correction, that they did have to be verified officially, and the unions came out and insisted that teachers’ professional integrity should be trusted, and that it shouldn’t need to be verified officially.


  • Options
    #497
    6am7f9zxrsjvnb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭6am7f9zxrsjvnb


    It’s not up to teachers to check if individual students are receiving accommodations. I told my principal I ticked yes for all and he just nodded.
    Our understanding was that it just assumes that each student would have what they need for the exam. e.g. a scribe, a reader...chewing gum. Whatever will help them perform to their optimum.
    As I say , I ticked yes for all and I don’t expect to get a call over it.


  • Options
    #498
    paddybarry
    Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭paddybarry


    RealJohn wrote: »
    I believe, and I’m open to correction, that they did have to be verified officially, and the unions came out and insisted that teachers’ professional integrity should be trusted, and that it shouldn’t need to be verified
    They must be verified


    https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/education/2016/42.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjlv_CzrvnpAhUuQkEAHW3KARgQFjAJegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw2DJiXKMAT4D5I1uHUBaYJ3


  • Options
    #499
    jimmytwotimes 2013
    Registered Users Posts: 4,764 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    I think the 10 CP hours do have to be verified officially but most principals are wiser than that.

    We get a form to verify ours every year and have a day marked on the school calendar to get people in and do more if they fail to verify their 10 professional hours


  • Options
    #500
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,137 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Lindsey Happy Asphalt wrote: »
    It’s not up to teachers to check if individual students are receiving accommodations. I told my principal I ticked yes for all and he just nodded.

    Of course it is .
    How are you going to take this into account when giving your predicted grade if you don’t know whether they would be entitled to RACE or not ?


  • Options
    #501
    6am7f9zxrsjvnb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭6am7f9zxrsjvnb


    km79 wrote: »
    Of course it is .
    How are you going to take this into account when giving your predicted grade if you don’t know whether they would be entitled to RACE or not ?

    Take what into account?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #502
    ngunners
    Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭ngunners


    km79 wrote: »
    Of course it is .
    How are you going to take this into account when giving your predicted grade if you don’t know whether they would be entitled to RACE or not ?

    The only reason this is even up for debate stems from the poor wording on the form. (and is further proof of how poorly thought out the whole calculated grades ‘plan’ was)


  • Options
    #503
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Lindsey Happy Asphalt wrote: »
    It’s not up to teachers to check if individual students are receiving accommodations. I told my principal I ticked yes for all and he just nodded.
    Our understanding was that it just assumes that each student would have what they need for the exam. e.g. a scribe, a reader...chewing gum. Whatever will help them perform to their optimum.
    As I say , I ticked yes for all and I don’t expect to get a call over it.
    I ticked every box because I do know who was entitled to RAs. You should know. As has been pointed out, it’s hard to apply them, if you don’t know who’s entitled to them.


  • Options
    #504
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,137 ✭✭✭✭km79


    ngunners wrote: »
    The only reason this is even up for debate stems from the poor wording on the form. (and is further proof of how poorly thought out the whole calculated grades ‘plan’ was)

    Agreed
    There were guidelines explaining it too though !


  • Options
    #505
    ngunners
    Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭ngunners


    km79 wrote: »
    Agreed
    There were guidelines explaining it too though !

    Still no excuse for a lack of clarity on the form itself!


  • Options
    #506
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,137 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Lindsey Happy Asphalt wrote: »
    Take what into account?

    If a student would have been entitled to reasonable accommodations (e.g reader , scribe, spelling and grammar waiver etc) .
    If all Form As come back to a principal with Yes ticked on all the principal really should be contacting the relevant teacher (If there is a RACE candidate in there class) to make sure they have taken it into account for that students grade .
    By ticking Yes on all it would suggest the teacher has not differentiated between that student and the rest of the class in terms of RACE.


  • Options
    #507
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭History Queen


    km79 wrote: »
    Of course it is .
    How are you going to take this into account when giving your predicted grade if you don’t know whether they would be entitled to RACE or not ?

    I agree with you. I can't see the logic of teachers not taking the time to do this, we were sent the list of students with accomodations granted and what the specific accomodation was. I'd get this every year from the SEN dept anyway as I teach English so would need to apply some accomodations when marking. You can't calculate a grade without knowing their accomodations and taking them in to account surely?


  • Options
    #508
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,137 ✭✭✭✭km79


    ngunners wrote: »
    Still no excuse for a lack of clarity on the form itself!

    No
    And it is interesting to see how different interpretations can so easily be taken from a poorly worded form or question !


  • Options
    #509
    6am7f9zxrsjvnb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭6am7f9zxrsjvnb


    RealJohn wrote: »
    I ticked every box because I do know who was entitled to RAs. You should know. As has been pointed out, it’s hard to apply them, if you don’t know who’s entitled to them.

    Genuinely confused as to what you mean by ‘applying them’.

    My rationale is extremely fair to each student.

    I simply assume that each student has ‘every accommodation’ to enable them to perform to the best of their ability- reader, scribe,whatever.

    Therefore, I tick yes for everybody . Simple.

    Explain clearly why you feel it’s vital to know the specific accommodations for specific students.


  • Options
    #510
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Lindsey Happy Asphalt wrote: »
    Genuinely confused as to what you mean by ‘applying them’.

    My rationale is extremely fair to each student.

    I simply assume that each student has ‘every accommodation’ to enable them to perform to the best of their ability- reader, scribe,whatever.

    Therefore, I tick yes for everybody . Simple.

    Explain clearly why you feel it’s vital to know the specific accommodations for specific students.
    If a student is entitled to a reader, and they didn’t have one for your class tests (as I imagine they didn’t), that would have affected their results.
    If they were entitled to a scribe, and they didn’t have one for your class tests (as I imagine they didn’t), that might have affected their results.
    If you teach a language, and they have a spelling and grammar waiver, that would affect their results.

    It’s as important to know these things for examination as it is for effective teaching.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #511
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Lindsey Happy Asphalt wrote: »
    Explain clearly why you feel it’s vital to know the specific accommodations for specific students.

    I'm not the person you were replying to but in relation to the above, if you don't know the specific accomodations for each student how can you grade them? I teach English and a student with a spelling and grammar waiveris marked differently to one without a waiver. A student with a scribe, however, would follow the conventional marking scheme, but in the absence of having a scribe during class tests, may have scored worse than they wouldhad they had this accomodation.


Advertisement