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What are your thoughts on the Ian Wright/Patrick O'Brien situation?

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    #152
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    perhaps that is why there are so many repeat offenders with dozens of convictions.


    I am afraid it is not that simple. There is no one size fits all approach. Every prosecution is unique and Courts weigh up all the relevant facts and niceties unique to every case and the individuals involved.

    The probability is that we will never hear of this guy again and neither will the Courts. With that in mind the Courts do not see it as remotely beneficial to anyone by sending him to jail and basically ruining the guy’s life at 18. Pretty much everyone is given a second chance the first time up in the District Court.

    Posters have suggested "Oh it will teach the guy a lesson". Really? Murderers, rapists, thieves, drug dealers have been sent to jail since time memorial. Jail has not acted as any sort of deterrent.

    Drug trafficking in some Asian countries is a straight up death sentence. Still people do it. You murder in the US you can get life without parole or a death sentence. Still people do it.


    Jail is not some sort of a cure all.


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    #153
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    perhaps that is why there are so many repeat offenders with dozens of convictions.

    I'm pretty confident they'd all have been given a second chance at their very first interaction, assuming not a serious offence.

    To err is human- to forgive devine

    Any subsequent serious or similar "lapses" should be dealt with very severely. That they're not, is a sentancing/prison capacity issue.
    Anyone with multiple convictions, more than likely has served time at some stage.
    That they continue to reoffend is evidence our prison rehabilitation efforts may be less than 100% effective , all the more reason to keep people out of prison where possible, where probation services indicate low risk.


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    #154
    Sebastian Dangerfield
    Registered Users Posts: 1,793 ✭✭✭Sebastian Dangerfield


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Unless the offender is mentally ill, he should be punished and even made an example of

    With the exception of the fella who tried to tax garlic as apples, I cant think of too many times an effort is made to make an example in this country.

    This should be one such case, as should the knife crime that killed the lady in Dublin.


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    #155
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,153 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    partyguinness wrote: »
    I am afraid it is not that simple. There is no one size fits all approach. Every prosecution is unique and Courts weigh up all the relevant facts and niceties unique to every case and the individuals involved.

    The probability is that we will never hear of this guy again and neither will the Courts. With that in mind the Courts do not see it as remotely beneficial to anyone by sending him to jail and basically ruining the guy’s life at 18. Pretty much everyone is given a second chance the first time up in the District Court.

    Posters have suggested "Oh it will teach the guy a lesson". Really? Murderers, rapists, thieves, drug dealers have been sent to jail since time memorial. Jail has not acted as any sort of deterrent.

    Drug trafficking in some Asian countries is a straight up death sentence. Still people do it. You murder in the US you can get life without parole or a death sentence. Still people do it.


    Jail is not some sort of a cure all.

    I never said it was simple. don't be so patronising. Until we start to take racism seriously it will only get worse. The courts need to send a message that outright racism like this case will not be tolerated.


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    #156
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Why can't we have better community service type system in place for things like this?

    Sending this idiot to jail with a criminal conviction wouldn't help anyone here, it would probably lead to a worse outcome for most concerned. Ian Wright was kind and reasonable enough to forgive, but he's right, that shouldn't be carte blanche to run off scot-free.

    The financial contribution is something, but it's not enough, and it's probably just his parents that paid it. Why can't we have this kid in doing some anti-racist training (paid for by him) followed up by a spell volunteering in some sort of capacity for an charity or organisation that combats racism? Something that may have some hope of changing his stupid worldview and improving things for similar victims.


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    #157
    Shane Driscoll
    Site Banned Posts: 68 ✭✭Shane Driscoll


    razorblunt wrote: »
    Ok new account with 3 posts!

    And? My point not valid because I don't have 10 million posts like yourself?


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    #158
    fergiesfolly
    Registered Users Posts: 3,321 ✭✭✭fergiesfolly


    I don't think a prison sentence would've served anyone any good.
    But an appropriate community service to make him think about his actions and their consequences would've been a better call than a few hundred quid fine.
    To all those who minimize his actions because of his age or history I'd say this.
    It's the first time he's been CAUGHT.
    You don't know it's his first time doing it. And just because it's his first, does not mean it's his last. And I really don't understand why some here are giving him an easy ride.
    Also, those who think that online racism or other bullying can't be that bad, talk to families who've lot children or siblings to it. Or ask the kids that go through it everyday.


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    #159
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    I never said it was simple. don't be so patronising. Until we start to take racism seriously it will only get worse. The courts need to send a message that outright racism like this case will not be tolerated.


    I'm sorry but when you respond with just this and nothing else:-

    "perhaps that is why there are so many repeat offenders with dozens of convictions."

    Essentially you are saying that maybe there would not be so many repeat offenders if more jail time was dished out. That is simplistic and in fact studies from around the world over many decades indicate the very opposite effect.

    Racism should be dealt with absolutely. But this guy was caught and brought before the Courts so IMO he did not get away with it at all. Sticking him in jail woudl have been OTT.


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    #160
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,153 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    partyguinness wrote: »
    I'm sorry but when you respond with just this and nothing else:-

    "perhaps that is why there are so many repeat offenders with dozens of convictions."

    Essentially you are saying that maybe there would not be so many repeat offenders if more jail time was dished out. That is simplistic and in fact studies from around the world over many decades indicate the very opposite effect.

    Racism should be dealt with absolutely. But this guy was caught and brought before the Courts so IMO he did not get away with it at all. Sticking him in jail woudl have been OTT.
    he didn't even get a criminal conviction for some really nasty racism. He got away with it.


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    #161
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    he didn't even get a criminal conviction for some really nasty racism. He got away with it.

    He didn't get away with it.
    He was caught, and punished in accordance with our criminal justice system for first time offenders, unlikely to come to the attention of the courts again.

    Lenient? I think so.
    But its the system we have.


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    #162
    beggars_bush
    Registered Users Posts: 4,347 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    If you don't pay your tv licence fine you are sent to prison


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    #163
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,153 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    MikeOxsgreen wrote: »
    He didn't get away with it.
    He was caught, and punished in accordance with our criminal justice system for first time offenders, unlikely to come to the attention of the courts again.

    Lenient? I think so.
    But its the system we have.

    he barely got a slap on the wrist. he got away with it.


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    #164
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,153 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    beggars_bush wrote: »
    If you don't pay your tv licence fine you are sent to prison

    nobody is sent to prison for not paying their tv licence.


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    #165
    beggars_bush
    Registered Users Posts: 4,347 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    nobody is sent to prison for not paying their tv licence.

    If you don't pay the court fine.
    ie - tv licence fine. The fine for not paying your licence


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    #166
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,153 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    beggars_bush wrote: »
    If you don't pay the court fine.
    ie - tv licence fine. The fine for not paying your licence

    people are committed to prison in lieu of fines. that is not the same as being jailed for not having a tv licence.


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    #167
    ByTheSea2019
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭ByTheSea2019


    Saying you forgive someone and coming back saying they haven't been punished harshly enough makes it look like the "forgiveness" was just for PR. If you don't forgive them, fine, stick to your guns and say you want to go through the trial and see them punished. But don't try to look forgiving if you're not.


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    #168
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,365 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    he didn't even get a criminal conviction for some really nasty racism. He got away with it.

    Do you think a criminal conviction and all that goes hand in hand with that is proportionate in this case?

    A young person has the capacity to change, something which will have weighed on the mind of the judge. He has been punished for what he did, a criminal conviction in this case would not have been a wise decision as it could have the potential to lead this person down a dark path as a result, something the judge would have also taken I to consideration.

    Racism is abhorrent, but sentencing a teenager to a term in prison for calling a retired footballer names on the Internet is a flight of fancy.

    This young man has been publicly shamed and his behaviour set out for all to see. He has been given the opportunity to set himself straight, it's up to him to take it as much as it is up to society to recognise he wasn't allowed away with what he did.

    Glazers Out!



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    #169
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,153 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    nullzero wrote: »
    Do you think a criminal conviction and all that goes hand in hand with that is proportionate in this case?

    A young person has the capacity to change, something which will have weighed on the mind of the judge. He has been punished for what he did, a criminal conviction in this case would not have been a wise decision as it could have the potential to lead this person down a dark path as a result, something the judge would have also taken I to consideration.

    Racism is abhorrent, but sentencing a teenager to a term in prison for calling a retired footballer names on the Internet is a flight of fancy.

    This young man has been publicly shamed and his behaviour set out for all to see. He has been given the opportunity to set himself straight, it's up to him to take it as much as it is up to society to recognise he wasn't allowed away with what he did.

    I absolutely do think a criminal conviction is warranted. As somebody else said this probably isn't the first time for him, just the first time somebody made a complaint to the police. His age doesn't excuse him. he was old enough to know that calling a black person a monkey isn't on. What he did was very wrong. he was old enough to know it was wrong.


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    #170
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    I think back to some of the things I said when I was a teenager.
    I never really meant any of it. I just said it for shock value.
    Id be inclined to give the kid a pass on this and say, dont do it again. Pretty sure he wont.


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    #171
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,153 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    I think back to some of the things I said when I was a teenager.
    I never really meant any of it. I just said it for shock value.
    Id be inclined to give the kid a pass on this and say, dont do it again. Pretty sure he wont.

    did you ever call a black person a coon monkey?


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    #172
    RobbieTheRobber
    Registered Users Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    I think back to some of the things I said when I was a teenager.
    I never really meant any of it. I just said it for shock value.
    Id be inclined to give the kid a pass on this and say, dont do it again. Pretty sure he wont.

    So racism is ok for adults as long as its for shock value?


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    #173
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    did you ever call a black person a coon monkey?

    Worse.
    Called Dubs and Kerrymen worse too.

    And if I heard any of it out of my kids mouths - a slap on the back of the head and say cop yourself on and dont let me hear you ever say that again. Job done.


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    #174
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    he barely got a slap on the wrist. he got away with it.

    Again, you might think the punishment inadequate. Thats an opinion.

    As far as the criminal justice system is concerned, he didn't get away with anything.
    He was held to account, and judged and punished appropriately, by people far more qualified in these matters.

    So its false to claim he got away with it.


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    #175
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    The only abuse I have ever heard at football games in England came not from young fellas but white middle aged men. Vile.

    I have no idea how anyone can get so worked up about an opposition footballer. And I also had to hear abuse at an Irish player and about that player's nationality. I'm sittng there hoping to God the same guys don't turn around speaking to me.


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    #176
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    gas that no one seems to have mentioned the cultural background of the offender here .

    its is not uncommon for people from that background to be racially abusive in a manner that would be unacceptable to most of the rest of humanity

    cant understand why people who regularly claim to the victims of racism so often get away with horrendously racist actions themselves


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    #177
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    partyguinness wrote: »
    The only abuse I have ever heard at football games in England came not from young fellas but white middle aged men. Vile.

    I have no idea how anyone can get so worked up about an opposition footballer. And I also had to hear abuse at an Irish player and about that player's nationality.


    Its a tribal thing. Its like them against the world and they say stuff to get under the skin. Id say in private half of them would be nice as pie. Half of those yobs wouldnt be either mind you.
    Ever with a group of Catholics or protestants up the north when none of the other side are around and hear what they say?
    Worse again in Glasgow.


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    #178
    Shane Driscoll
    Site Banned Posts: 68 ✭✭Shane Driscoll


    mynamejeff wrote: »
    gas that no one seems to have mentioned the cultural background of the offender here .

    its is not uncommon for people from that background to be racially abusive in a manner that would be unacceptable to most of the rest of humanity

    cant understand why people who regularly claim to the victims of racism so often get away with horrendously racist actions themselves

    He was a traveller?


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    #179
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    mynamejeff wrote: »
    gas that no one seems to have mentioned the cultural background of the offender here .

    its is not uncommon for people from that background to be racially abusive in a manner that would be unacceptable to most of the rest of humanity

    cant understand why people who regularly claim to the victims of racism so often get away with horrendously racist actions themselves


    What backrgound?


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    #180
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Shane Driscoll wrote: »
    He was a traveller?


    ahh.
    Then I guess it would be racist if he got sent to jail.


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    #181
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    I absolutely do think a criminal conviction is warranted. As somebody else said this probably isn't the first time for him, just the first time somebody made a complaint to the police. His age doesn't excuse him. he was old enough to know that calling a black person a monkey isn't on. What he did was very wrong. he was old enough to know it was wrong.

    So now we're basing sentencing on what Boardsies are saying...

    Its a not an entirely unreasonable assumption to think anyones first time in court on a charge is the first time they were caught, but its a principle of our judicial system, "innocent until proven guilty" in most cases.

    When you're brought before the courts at any time in your criminal career, its assumed this is your first time committing a particular offence. At sentencing, record is taken into account.

    We don't judge people on the basis "sure they must have been getting away with it for years, they just been caught this time".


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