Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

Reality_Check1

Jesus man calm down. Not sure what motivation you think I have to lie about this. Dislcaimer - I'm a doctor working in the hospital but Im not sure what difference that would make.

Like I said its not published yet but the data is being presented this week at the Traffic Medicine Research webinar https://courses.rcpi.ie/product?catalog=Traffic-Medicine-Research-Webinar-2021

TheChizler

I'm always a little bit wary of these reports derived from Emergency Department records. The samples are usually self-selected in that it's only people who've had incidents who make up the data and conclusions are often drawn without looking at the bigger picture of the total number of people doing the thing that landed this smaller group in hospital, or making assumptions about what they could have done differently to avoid injury.

Reality_Check1

TheChizler wrote: »

I'm always a little bit wary of these reports derived from Emergency Department records. The samples are usually self-selected in that it's only people who've had incidents who make up the data and conclusions are often drawn without looking at the bigger picture of the total number of people doing the thing that landed this smaller group in hospital, or making assumptions about what they could have done differently to avoid injury.

Totally agree. I'd imagine its more so to raise awareness of the potential dangers rather than affect any real change

benneca1

This is a cycling forum does one cycle an e scooter ?

breezy1985

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

Totally agree. I'd imagine its more so to raise awareness of the potential dangers rather than affect any real change

So now you totally agree that these reports can be a little suspect but yet you are still happy to go on about a report you haven't even read yet. You don't like escooters we get it but leave out the fairytale reports and stick to ones that have been published this is a journalism thread after all

AndrewJRenko

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

Like I said its not published yet but the data is being presented this week at the Traffic Medicine Research webinar https://courses.rcpi.ie/product?catalog=Traffic-Medicine-Research-Webinar-2021

Looks like someone sat down and said; "Now what topics can we talk about that will avoid us talking about the carnage caused by motorists on the road every day".

Reality_Check1

breezy1985 wrote: »

So now you totally agree that these reports can be a little suspect but yet you are still happy to go on about a report you haven't even read yet. You don't like escooters we get it but leave out the fairytale reports and stick to ones that have been published this is a journalism thread after all

Yeah you are totally correct there is no way I would have asked to read the paper ahead of print because I found it interesting. you're a gas man!

Reality_Check1

Look lads I brought up something because I thought it was mildly interesting and somewhat related to cycling especially If the use of cycle lanes were to be discussed.

I've tried my best to keep it civil and provide links where possible. I think its best if I leave it there (I've already had to delete two petty, sniping posts before hitting the reply button).

The link is above if anyone would like to hear the presentation (again just to stress im not involved in it) and I will post the published paper here when available.

Have a good day

CramCycle

breezy1985 wrote: »

From paper 1 "We found a substantial increase in the number of scooter-related injuries during the first two months of electric scooter legalization"

Reminds me of when I started in my current job, we started making sure every needlestick and razor cut was reported. Safety office went mental saying the numbers had jumped so significantly. It took 30seconds to remind them that before that year, it was never reported to them so it wasn't that it didn't happen, its that simple. Same with e scooter incidents, numbers have increased dramatically because until recently, they simply did not exist at the scale they do now. I certainly wold expect a spike in cases in the first big year or two as people became accustomed to them.

magicbastarder

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Looks like someone sat down and said; "Now what topics can we talk about that will avoid us talking about the carnage caused by motorists on the road every day".

seriously, you're like a stuck record.
it's not wrong and it's not a diversion to try to identify whether there is an increased risk of injury with a new mode of transport. in fact, it'd be negligent to *not* try to quantify it.
there was an uptick in cyclist fatalities with the introduction of e-bikes in the netherlands, and it's useful to know the factors so they can be mitigated against or even just understood. i don't think there were any accusations that it was people trying to divert attention away from cars in that instance.

we can wait till the paper is published and then make a call on it.

magicbastarder

benneca1 wrote: »

This is a cycling forum does one cycle an e scooter ?

because there is a clear crossover between issues relating to the two modes of transport and (what i would have concern for) regulation around e-scooters being used as a trojan horse for changing regulations about bicycle use.

AndrewJRenko

magicbastarder wrote: »

seriously, you're like a stuck record.
it's not wrong and it's not a diversion to try to identify whether there is an increased risk of injury with a new mode of transport. in fact, it'd be negligent to *not* try to quantify it.
there was an uptick in cyclist fatalities with the introduction of e-bikes in the netherlands, and it's useful to know the factors so they can be mitigated against or even just understood. i don't think there were any accusations that it was people trying to divert attention away from cars in that instance.

we can wait till the paper is published and then make a call on it.

Sorry for breathing, but to me, a body with the title of "National Office for Traffic Medicine" that has no interest in the carnage on the road caused by motorists every day - 150-odd killed each year, about 1000 seriously injured each year, and their papers can broadly be categorised under;

- health issues for drivers, especially the ones that might stop someone from driving
- cyclist injuries, scooter injuries - two very niche issues in the context of the overall death toll on the roads

Two of the papers might possibly have some angles relevant to the current big dangers on our roads;

Aisling O'Byrne and Laith Al Azawi - 3rd Year Medical Students, TCD.
Inclusion of medical fitness to drive in medical postgraduate training curricula.

Dr Margaret Ryan - National Office for Traffic Medicine
Review of On-Road Driving assessment services in Ireland

The rest really seem to have missed the point, to the extent that it looks deliberate.

You're correct to say that some research into scooter injuries wouldn't be a bad thing and might even be timely, in the context of the overall death/injury toll on the roads.

But these lads really seem to be ignoring the vast majority of deaths and injuries on the road to focus on niche issues instead.

Pinch Flat

https://www.echolive.ie/corkviews/arid-40279667.html

Came across this. Apparently this counts for journalism these days.

TheChizler

Pinch Flat wrote: »

https://www.echolive.ie/corkviews/arid-40279667.html

Came across this. Apparently this counts for journalism these days.

Meanwhile Cork City's newest piece of cycling infrastructure... Unfinished but not exactly discouraging cycling on the pavements.

https://twitter.com/conndonovan9/status/1389255728444096519?s=19

Stark

Well considering how much of "cycling infrastructure" is just a line of paint on a footpath (or sometimes not even a line, just a blue sign with picture of both pedestrian and bicycle on a pole) , that's not actually the worst offender.

"Cycling on footpaths is really really bad". "Oh you're getting in the way of the cars, here's some paint/a sign, go cycle on the footpad now".

timmyjimmy

TheChizler wrote: »

Meanwhile Cork City's newest piece of cycling infrastructure... Unfinished but not exactly discouraging cycling on the pavements.

https://twitter.com/conndonovan9/status/1389255728444096519?s=19

This is a shared plaza, cyclists are allowed to cycle here. Think it's alright myself, will probably use it all the time when heading to town, I know the mrs will use it everyday going to work.

p15574

Duckjob wrote: »

One difference I could see with coming off a bike at speed and coming off an escooter at speed is that on a bike your legs are suspended and caught up with with the bike in the event of a fall, meaning your upper body is more likely to take the impact on the ground, whereas with the escooter you've a much greater chance of being able to keep your legs /feets under you in the fall. Not necessarily that you're going to land on your feet, but your legs and knees would probably take more of the impact than they would on a bike.

I agree, usually when you come off a bike you don't really come "off" it, you're still holding onto it and/or clipped in so you "roll with it" (if single-vehicle) or take the impact on upper legs or shoulders. With scooters, I agree, the smaller wheels mean they're much easier to topple with a pothole, and the rider would be thrown clear - and the natural human reaction is to put out your hands to break your fall - hence smashing your wrists. Probably the same cause for ankles - putting your foot out rapidly to try and break your fall. Cyclists wouldn't really get the chance to put a foot or hand out - probably just aswell.

Dowee

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/goatstown-traffic-locals-fear-plans-may-swamp-gridlocked-suburb-1.4554341

Could it finally be dawning on people that more cars are not the solution?

Numerous references to "Induced Demand" too.

magicbastarder

Want to live longer, be happier and save the planet? Get on your bike
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/want-to-live-longer-be-happier-and-save-the-planet-get-on-your-bike-1.4550143

Tombo2001

magicbastarder wrote: »

Want to live longer, be happier and save the planet? Get on your bike
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/want-to-live-longer-be-happier-and-save-the-planet-get-on-your-bike-1.4550143

It is a wonder everyone doesn’t own a bike.

I like this line.

It is.

Seth Brundle

Another letter in today's IT - it will be interesting to see the reaction to the proposal to remove the on-street parking:

Time for safe cycling infrastructure
Sir, – Between 2010 and 2020, 101 people were killed on Irish roads while using their bicycles.

A significant factor in these deaths is the extreme lack of safe cycling infrastructure in Ireland and the priority given to private motor vehicles.

One of the recent deaths occurred on the South Circular Road in Dublin, where I live and cycle to bring my eldest son to school. The South Circular Road and its environs are home to thousands of families and households, most of whom do not own a car. The number of residents and the proportion that will not own a car is set to rise significantly, with the development of sites such as the Bailey Gibson/Player Wills site.

The section of the South Circular Road, which runs east to west, is four lanes wide, although for much of the road one or two of these lanes are given to on-street parking for private vehicles. On, and adjacent to, this stretch of road are four primary schools, along with secondary and third-level institutions.

This section of the road is 3.5km long, yet only contains 180 metres of cycle lanes, none of which is protected. There is no safe section of this road on which to cycle. It is not safe for an adult who cycles regularly, let alone for a child or inexperienced cyclist. The South Circular Road currently acts as a physical barrier to prevent cyclists moving around the city.

A two-way protected cycle lane on the South Circular Road could provide a cycling artery for the city. Such a cycle lane could be built without removing any of the existing traffic lanes. Not only would it allow for safe journeys along the road itself, it would provide safe access to the huge array of quieter streets off the South Circular Road, most of which are cut off for cyclists by the dangerous nature of the South Circular Road. – Yours, etc,

DONNCHADH WOULFE,
Dublin 8.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/time-for-safe-cycling-infrastructure-1.4553675

Tombo2001

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Another letter in today's IT - it will be interesting to see the reaction to the proposal to remove the on-street parking:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/time-for-safe-cycling-infrastructure-1.4553675

It sounds very similar to the Griffith Avenue situation really.

It appears like a no-brainer to cyclists, but then when the cycle track was put in place, there were people moaning about it all over social media.

Maddeningly, one of the major gripes on Facebook groups is that they "just put it in without any consultation with local people".

A bigger challenge with Griffith Avenue is
(i) why does it take so long. Its coming up to 12 months since they began the cycle path, it still doesnt go very far - i believe ultimately this to go to Clontarf, but the moment it hasnt even reached Drumcondra Road.

In contrast, when they resurface the tarmacadam, this is turned around in 2 days.

An incomplete cycle path means people are less likely to use it - which then brings the "they have the cycle path and wont use it" gripe.

(ii) What to do at pinch points - all of these circular 4 lane roads, NCR, SCR, Clonliffe, Griffith Avenue - have pinch points where any segregated cycle lane will just end.....which again goes back to how much impact they will have.

AndrewJRenko

breezy1985 wrote: »

From paper 1 "We found a substantial increase in the number of scooter-related injuries during the first two months of electric scooter legalization"


Well doh of course scooter related incidents will go up with loads more scooters around. No mode of transport is 100% safe not even walking so ya not that dangerous


Show us the actual report you mentioned earlier or stop spreading lies about A&E departments

Interesting update on the thorny scooter issue

https://twitter.com/LkCycleDesign/status/1389582016987938817?s=19

Duckjob

Pinch Flat wrote: »

https://www.echolive.ie/corkviews/arid-40279667.html

Came across this. Apparently this counts for journalism these days.

Oh to have a burly tattoed white knight / thug who's just itching for an excuse to act out their violent tendencies on a societal other-group. Why can't we have more of these individuals around to fix all the ills of the world. </swoon></sarcasm>

TheChizler

timmyjimmy wrote: »

This is a shared plaza, cyclists are allowed to cycle here. Think it's alright myself, will probably use it all the time when heading to town, I know the mrs will use it everyday going to work.

Is it though? Officially? Never seen a sign. Shared spaces are heavily implied all over the place when cycle lanes suddenly end in the middle of footpaths but I'm not sure they have any legal weight.

timmyjimmy

TheChizler wrote: »

Is it though? Officially? Never seen a sign. Shared spaces are heavily implied all over the place when cycle lanes suddenly end in the middle of footpaths but I'm not sure they have any legal weight.

Haven't seen anything official, saying that, never seen a sign not to cycle on it, it's a wide plaza in fairness, not a path. Nano Nagle bridge is heavily endorsed as a cycling and pedestrian bridge, further giving weight to cycling being allowed on the plaza. Been cycling it for years, never had any hassle.

breezy1985

timmyjimmy wrote: »

Haven't seen anything official, saying that, never seen a sign not to cycle on it, it's a wide plaza in fairness, not a path. Nano Nagle bridge is heavily endorsed as a cycling and pedestrian bridge, further giving weight to cycling being allowed on the plaza. Been cycling it for years, never had any hassle.

You might not get hassle most people don't when cycling on paths but if it's not marked as mixed use then it wouldn't technically be legal

Not sure if this was posted in relation to Flynn's clag group. Some extra info in the comments too.

https://irishcycle.com/2021/05/02/cllr-flynn-refuses-to-clarity-issues-around-cycle-lane-action-group/comment-page-1/#comment-234557

Seth Brundle

I hadn't heard this on the news - may he rest in peace...
man in his 40s Cycling Killed in Collision with Bus Driver

A man in his 40s was killed when cycling his bicycle yesterday in a collision with a bus driver at Kilshane Cross, Co Dublin, which north of Finglas and west of Dublin Airport.

average_runner

magicbastarder wrote: »

Want to live longer, be happier and save the planet? Get on your bike
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/want-to-live-longer-be-happier-and-save-the-planet-get-on-your-bike-1.4550143

Can say that about all exercising!! Some how we still don't push exercise enough or provide the right facilities