Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

Stark · 02-05-2021 9:27pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Is there any list of the members of the CLAG available?

https://irishcycle.com/2021/05/02/cllr-flynn-refuses-to-clarity-issues-around-cycle-lane-action-group/

magicbastarder · 02-05-2021 10:34pm

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

Not trying to start an argument about it. I'll link the research here when it is published. E scooter injuries and severity of injury far outweighs any other mode of transport at the moment on Irish roads (in terms of amount used and injuries caused)

obviously, it's kinda difficult for us to react to a study that's not yet been published.
and we don't know whether - if as you mention, injury levels are very high - it's an issue that can be addressed with regulation, or whether it's endemic to the mode of transport.

i do know that when i first started seeing them, my brain simply wasn't used to seeing what on first glance could have been a stationary pedestrian.

buffalo · 03-05-2021 7:01am

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

Not trying to start an argument about it.

Why did you post so!? Did you expect your description of unpublished research would instantly change everyone's opinions to align with your own, no discussion required?

Reality_Check1 · 03-05-2021 9:10am

buffalo wrote: »

Why did you post so!? Did you expect your description of unpublished research would instantly change everyone's opinions to align with your own, no discussion required?

Well I thought someone might have wanted to talk about e-scooters and as I said it was separate to magicbastarders point

But instead posters just wanted to tell me how much worse cars were

breezy1985 · 03-05-2021 9:13am

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

Well I thought someone might have wanted to talk about e-scooters and as I said it was separate to magicbastarders point

But instead posters just wanted to tell me how much worse cars were

Well you want them banned outright despite them not being that dangerous

Doesnt really add up to anything other than your personal bias

CramCycle · 03-05-2021 9:15am

07Lapierre wrote: »

Yeah and all scooters should be taxed, insured and the users should have to pass a test before using one right?

Otherwise this happens....CARNAGE!

Came across this yesterday, even with an ambulance attending the number of people getting annoyed they couldn't get passed was shocking. As someone who uses that road a lot, many cars drift over the white line on the slight bends, surprised this doesn't happen more often.

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

Not trying to start an argument about it. I'll link the research here when it is published. E scooter injuries and severity of injury far outweighs any other mode of transport at the moment on Irish roads (in terms of amount used and injuries caused)

Personal opinion - they should be banned. Not interested in taxing them or registering them etc

Banning them won't reduce usage, they are effectively banned now and their usage is growing. Will be interesting to see if the paper links speed or what heir conclusions are, making them legal and giving easier access to market for road legal/restricted ones might be one resolution. Also the cause of the accidents would be of interest, are they loan riders or involved with other road users.

TheChizler · 03-05-2021 9:19am

And since they're all illegal right now speed restrictions are only occasionally implemented. There's one on my commute capable of doing 80 km/h.

MojoMaker · 03-05-2021 9:20am

Enough with the madness.

Reality_Check1 · 03-05-2021 9:30am

CramCycle wrote: »

Banning them won't reduce usage, they are effectively banned now and their usage is growing. Will be interesting to see if the paper links speed or what heir conclusions are, making them legal and giving easier access to market for road legal/restricted ones might be one resolution. Also the cause of the accidents would be of interest, are they loan riders or involved with other road users.

Yeah I think you're right in relation to banning them outright but I would feel very strongly about banning them from cycle lanes. I was talking to the person who wrote it so don't have all the facts to hand but some things they mentioned

1. apparently the speed restrictor was "cut" in a lot of cases

2. Nearly all lone riders who would never have been on a bicycle (nearly exclusively in the 30-50 age bracket)

3. The type of injuries sustained were far more complicated than typical injuries i.e. wrists and ankles were absolutely smashed compared to simple breaks

4. despite only a smaller % of the population using them they account for a 4 fold increase in attendance to ED compared to cyclist and motorbikes combined!!

Reality_Check1 · 03-05-2021 9:40am

breezy1985 wrote: »

Well you want them banned outright despite them not being that dangerous

Doesnt really add up to anything other than your personal bias

Define "not that dangerous"?

Here are a series of papers from elsewhere in the world identifying it as a problem that will likely get worse as their use increases;

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32023131/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31895168/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33065668/

AndrewJRenko · 03-05-2021 9:48am

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

Not trying to start an argument about it. I'll link the research here when it is published. E scooter injuries and severity of injury far outweighs any other mode of transport at the moment on Irish roads (in terms of amount used and injuries caused)

Personal opinion - they should be banned. Not interested in taxing them or registering them etc

What exactly do you mean by 'outweights any other mode of transport'...'in terms of amount used' please?

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

4. despite only a smaller % of the population using them they account for a 4 fold increase in attendance to ED compared to cyclist and motorbikes combined!!

Why do you mean by 'increase compared to cyclists and motorbikes combined'?

Scooters are new, so any 'increase' in the number of scooter injuries is not a sign of inherent relative danger. It is a sign of more people using scooters.

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

Define "not that dangerous"?

Here are a series of papers from elsewhere in the world identifying it as a problem that will likely get worse as their use increases;

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32023131/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31895168/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33065668/

Wait till you hear about cars.

Hurrache · 03-05-2021 9:53am

It'll be interesting to see the actual report and if it looked for reasons behind the accidents. I've seen a few incidents in which the blame lied with motorists, such as those already navigating a roundabout being almost cleared out of it by cars entering.

Incidentally I witnessed two close passes last week on the same group of cyclists. I came up behind a group of 6, riding 2 abreast, and I suspected they were going to turn off at the next junction. It was a 50kph zone with a solid white line anyway approaching a school and church.

A guy comes up behind me in a dumb BMW SUV, immediately starts gesticulating at me and getting very angry, then the dumb **** overtook me and the cyclists on the bend, and pulling in on top of them in the process as a punishment.

It then got better. The next guy behind done the same, and pulled into a premises only a couple hundred metres further, the same place I was going. I parked in the same place, we were going business in the same place, and we got out of the cars at the same time, and he realised he knew me and came over. First comment was the stereotypical one about how he hates cyclists illegally cycling beside each other. How people still think this I've no idea, but I explained it's not illegal and I've known people to be charged or fined for what the two cars who passed me done. Not sure if it'll register though.

magicbastarder · 03-05-2021 10:00am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Wait till you hear about cars.

why, have you not mentioned them before?

magicbastarder · 03-05-2021 10:03am

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

some things they mentioned

do you know if there's any mention of the prevalence of involvement of other vehicles?
i don't like the look of the combination of bicycle-level speeds and small wheels i've seen on some of them. i suspect they don't deal with potholes or badly installed drain covers well.

Reality_Check1 · 03-05-2021 10:06am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What exactly do you mean by 'outweights any other mode of transport'...'in terms of amount used' please?

Why do you mean by 'increase compared to cyclists and motorbikes combined'?

Scooters are new, so any 'increase' in the number of scooter injuries is not a sign of inherent relative danger. It is a sign of more people using scooters.

Wait till you hear about cars.

The amount of injuries occurring in e scooters is higher as a total percentage of the time used compared to other modes of transport.

Currently e scooter related injuries account for 4 x that of cyclist and motorbike injuries in terms of ED attendance.

edit - that should be cyclists and motorbikes combined

Reality_Check1 · 03-05-2021 10:10am

magicbastarder wrote: »

do you know if there's any mention of the prevalence of involvement of other vehicles?
i don't like the look of the combination of bicycle-level speeds and small wheels i've seen on some of them. i suspect they don't deal with potholes or badly installed drain covers well.

Im not sure about the prevalence of other vehicles tbh.

anecdotally its the high speed + lower centre of gravity + the middle aged person trying it out for the first time

magicbastarder · 03-05-2021 10:35am

anecdotally, most of the people i see on them tend to be younger, 20s or thereabouts.

Hurrache · 03-05-2021 10:46am

Yeah, it's mostly young people I see on them too, rarely an older age group.

AndrewJRenko · 03-05-2021 10:46am

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

The amount of injuries occurring in e scooters is higher as a total percentage of the time used compared to other modes of transport.

Currently e scooter related injuries account for 4 x that of cyclist and motorbike injuries in terms of ED attendance.

edit - that should be cyclists and motorbikes combined

Where was the research done - Ireland? UK, USA?

Time used isn't the standard approach for comparing risk across modes of travel btw.

magicbastarder · 03-05-2021 11:01am

if comparing with cycling, it's probably reasonable as speeds are comparable.
unless of course if a large factor relates to delimited scooters doing excessive speed; but the data may not capture this, i suspect exact circumstances of the accidents are not recorded in A&E on anything approaching a regular basis.

Stark · 03-05-2021 11:16am

At least if someone's a gob****e on one, it's their own wrist/ankle they're smashing up.

Cetyl Palmitate · 03-05-2021 11:28am

I use a regular non-electric scouter from time to time and find you have to be far more vigilent of potholes/manholes/kerbs etc to avoid losing balance. It doesn't take much with those small wheels.

I could imagine a higher rate of falls on electric scooters travelling at 20-30kmh compared to bikes travelling at the same speed

Duckjob · 03-05-2021 11:51am

One difference I could see with coming off a bike at speed and coming off an escooter at speed is that on a bike your legs are suspended and caught up with with the bike in the event of a fall, meaning your upper body is more likely to take the impact on the ground, whereas with the escooter you've a much greater chance of being able to keep your legs /feets under you in the fall. Not necessarily that you're going to land on your feet, but your legs and knees would probably take more of the impact than they would on a bike.

Seth Brundle · 03-05-2021 11:53am

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Summer is here and the time is right for cycling in the street. Not only is it cheaper, better for you and more exhilarating than almost every other mode of transport we can think of, it will also help you do your bit to save the planet. And if you’re not convinced right now you will be once you’ve got through our bank holiday A to Z.
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Eamonnator · 03-05-2021 12:04pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Want to live longer, be happier and save the planet? Get on your bike
Pricewatch: If you need us to spell out the benefits of the bicycle, here’s our cycling A-Z

And The Irish Times, of all papers!

Reality_Check1 · 03-05-2021 12:34pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Where was the research done - Ireland? UK, USA?

Time used isn't the standard approach for comparing risk across modes of travel btw.

a Dublin hospital

Reality_Check1 · 03-05-2021 12:37pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

if comparing with cycling, it's probably reasonable as speeds are comparable.
unless of course if a large factor relates to delimited scooters doing excessive speed; but the data may not capture this, i suspect exact circumstances of the accidents are not recorded in A&E on anything approaching a regular basis.

Yeah absolutely correct - you would get a very basic single vehicle or multi vehicle / pedestrian written in the notes at best. Most would have an approximation of the speed but that would be self reported.

You'd never get a detailed description of the accident in the medical notes

breezy1985 · 03-05-2021 1:35pm

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

The amount of injuries occurring in e scooters is higher as a total percentage of the time used compared to other modes of transport.

Currently e scooter related injuries account for 4 x that of cyclist and motorbike injuries in terms of ED attendance.

edit - that should be cyclists and motorbikes combined

Do Irish emergency departments make you specify to that detail what the vehicle is and actually record it. Also "4x the injuries" but what type and how often is it not the user or the incident had no one else involved ?

AndrewJRenko · 03-05-2021 1:40pm

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

Yeah absolutely correct - you would get a very basic single vehicle or multi vehicle / pedestrian written in the notes at best. Most would have an approximation of the speed but that would be self reported.

You'd never get a detailed description of the accident in the medical notes

How did the researchers come to conclusions about "time used " from this scant data set?

breezy1985 · 03-05-2021 1:40pm

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

Define "not that dangerous"?

Here are a series of papers from elsewhere in the world identifying it as a problem that will likely get worse as their use increases;

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32023131/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31895168/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33065668/

From paper 1 "We found a substantial increase in the number of scooter-related injuries during the first two months of electric scooter legalization"

Well doh of course scooter related incidents will go up with loads more scooters around. No mode of transport is 100% safe not even walking so ya not that dangerous

Show us the actual report you mentioned earlier or stop spreading lies about A&E departments

Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

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