Landlord packed our stuff up and threw it out

GreeBo

ted1 wrote: »

Not eviction, if the tenant abandons

According to section 37. of the Residential Tenancies Act :

Part 4 tenancy shall be deemed to have been terminated by the tenant on his or her vacating the dwelling if

(a) before or on or about that vacating, he or she serves a notice of termination in respect of the tenancy that does not give the required period of notice, and

(b) before or on that vacating the rent has fallen into arrears.

A Part 4 tenancy shall also be deemed to have been terminated by the tenant upon any rent owed by him or her being in arrears for a period of 28 days or more if

(a) whether before or after the end of that period, the tenant has vacated the dwelling, and

(b) no notice of termination has been served by the tenant in respect of the tenancy.

*

Leaving your house isnt vacating it Ted.

GreeBo

ted1 wrote: »

A tenant hasn’t been seen since for 30+ days and rent hasn’t being paid. ( exceeds limit in lease)

Landlord assumes they have abandoned property so kindly puts belongings in storage incase they reappear.

Op have you contacted the landlord ?

No body has been seen, you may have heard of this covid-19 thing?

FVP3

Claw Hammer wrote: »

So what. Two wrongs don't make a right.

One "wrong" - theft, breaking and entering, and stealing property is worse than the other wrong. A late payment may be in fact a violation of contract but it forces the landlord to respond in a certain legal way.

Terrifying stuff here.

I mean I have been an accidental landlord, my sister is a landlord who has had problem tenants. I understand the issues with tenants.

But this is clearly illegal. It amazing that this action has support.

( It would be like if tenants justified somebody trashing the place because some landlords are pricks.)

Claw Hammer

FVP3 wrote: »

One "wrong" - theft, breaking and entering, and stealing property is worse than the other wrong. A late payment may be in fact a violation of contract but it forces the landlord to respond in a certain legal way.

Terrifying stuff here.

I mean I have been an accidental landlord, my sister is a landlord who has had problem tenants. I understand the issues with tenants.

But this is clearly illegal. It amazing that this action has support.

( It would be like if tenants justified somebody trashing the place because some landlords are pricks.)

So it is alright for one party to a contract to do something wrong provided the other party does something worse?

Eric Cartman

FVP3 wrote: »

I doubt if the contract said if they were 7 days late on payment the landlord can take the deposit, break into the house, and steal their property, but if it did say that it was an illegal contract.

37 days in arrears. Unless the tenants have a written contract for a reduction in rent , tyey are 37 days in arrears.

Eric Cartman

FVP3 wrote: »

Here is the law on abandonment


The landlord cannot end the tenancy and re-let the property without a possession order, which takes time to obtain and will require proper proof that the he has left. Tenant rights mean that landlords cannot even enter the property immediately to check that it is abandoned, except in emergency circumstances (outlined below).

and

Checking if the property is abandoned
As a landlord, if you think the property has been abandoned, you should first attempt to contact the tenant. Ask the tenant for written confirmation that they’re returning possession of the property to you, and to return the keys. Once you received this confirmation you can go into the property immediately.

If, after repeated attempts, you cannot reach the tenant, you can investigate further. The property can only be considered abandoned if the rent is overdue and there are reasonable grounds to believe that it is abandoned.

The following are clear and accepted indicators of it:

non-payment of rent,
the property keys have been left behind, and
the tenant’s possessions have been removed from the property.

So op and a bunch of students go home for covid, reasonable assumption is that they all probably took laptops, most of their clothes, phone chargers, etc.. whats left behind is 1 desktop computer the op owns, and sundry items from them and the other 3 tenants,

Theres no wallets, phones, passports , birth certs or other things you usially keep in your primary dwelling. At what point does the threshold for personal goods get reached, Ive cleared houses where they have been abandoned and you get stereos, clothes, food , childrens toys etc.. left. Its the hardest thing to call and helps nobody to say there were or were not enough contents to jusitfy habitation.

We only have the OP’s perspective on this, if one of the other 3 lads or all the other 3 were called or texted multiple times and never replied / answered and as above theres 37 days arrears plus essential personel affects and clothes removed then the landlord has a damn reasonable abandonment case.

Ballso

Eric Cartman wrote: »

So op and a bunch of students go home for covid, reasonable assumption is that they all probably took laptops, most of their clothes, phone chargers, etc.. whats left behind is 1 desktop computer the op owns, and sundry items from them and the other 3 tenants,

Theres no wallets, phones, passports , birth certs or other things you usially keep in your primary dwelling. At what point does the threshold for personal goods get reached, Ive cleared houses where they have been abandoned and you get stereos, clothes, food , childrens toys etc.. left. Its the hardest thing to call and helps nobody to say there were or were not enough contents to jusitfy habitation.

We only have the OP’s perspective on this, if one of the other 3 lads or all the other 3 were called or texted multiple times and never replied / answered and as above theres 37 days arrears plus essential personel affects and clothes removed then the landlord has a damn reasonable abandonment case.

Utter drivel from an utter gob****e. The law is perfectly clear on this. Your stupid commentary on wallets is irrelevant.

Graham

Claw Hammer wrote: »

So it is alright for one party to a contract to do something wrong provided the other party does something worse?

Can you point out the "they started it" clause in the Residential Tenancies Act>

Eric Cartman wrote: »

37 days in arrears. Unless the tenants have a written contract for a reduction in rent , tyey are 37 days in arrears.

Even if that were the case, there's SFA can be done about it while the emergency legislation is in place.

ted1

So any update on how the op got on when he had a conversation? Is he moving back on the 20th July ? Renewing lease for another year ? Was he evicted ? Where things stored for safety as house had no insurance ?

ted1

GreeBo wrote: »

Leaving your house isnt vacating it Ted.

What is it ? I had a tenant do it before , only found it she moved when her neighbour said it to me.

Only realised she was still getting a cheque from the council several months later when the council asked how I had two sets of tenants, who were both getting cheques for rent. She had moved back home and was pocketing the rent cheque

Treppen

Claw Hammer wrote: »

I don't understand this remark. There are 2 parties to a contract. If both ignore the terms only 1 is to be condemned?

The contract would be superseded by the new covid-19 legislation

Grumpypants

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The landlord may have agreed to deffer the rent but they paid 1900 for april, thats 400 in arrears that carry over into may, on may 1st theyre 2700 in arrears and in arrears for 30 days

Still doesn't matter, even at a stretch (if you took the agreed reduction as rent arrears). He didn't serve them the 14 day notice, he didn't serve them notice of eviction, he didn't give them the full 90 days notice.

He entered their home unlawfully, took their professions and moved them to another location, and evicted them unlawfully.

None of that is allowed.

OP needs to get onto the RTB and lodge a complaint. Get the ball rolling on a nice little cash settlement. Maybe they can use the 5-20K to rent a nicer place for the next year.

the_syco

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

You’ve basically just made up a story. Basically calling the OP a liar just because they’re the OP, in long standing boards tradition, lends zero credibility either.

A long standing tradition is to call the OP out if details are in question.

FVP3 wrote: »

He agreed to reduce the rent and presumably they have that in writing. So they are not in arrears. Not that it matters given the new laws on eviction.

If evictions notices are only legit if on paper, would said decrease only be legit if it's on paper? Also, would said decrease, if on paper, be considered a rent review in which the LL can't increase for another 2 years if in an RPZ?

Treppen wrote: »

and the Covid-19 Emergency Legislation for the Rental Sector
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/covid-19-emergency-legislation-for-rental-sector/

"No one can be made to leave their accommodation (other than in limited and exceptional circumstances where a breach of tenant obligations takes place and an RTB Determination Order is sourced through the dispute resolution process)."

The OP had left the accommodation by their own free will.

Treppen wrote: »

Also

"Please be aware that carrying out an illegal eviction, which includes prohibiting access to the property or making the property uninhabitable by disconnecting services, can result in damages of up to €20,000 being awarded to the tenant. The RTB can seek an injunction from the Courts to reinstate the tenant and will continue to prioritise these cases during the emergency period."

Unless the LL changed locks, they haven't prohibited the OP access.

FVP3 wrote: »

One "wrong" - theft, breaking and entering, and stealing property is worse than the other wrong. A late payment may be in fact a violation of contract but it forces the landlord to respond in a certain legal way.

I agree that the LL was wrong to remove the stuff, but I find it curious that the OP only paid up after the LL moved their stuff.

expertrhino wrote: »

On the 27th of April we sent him a message that the rent would be a bit late for may (first time rent has been late) and he ignored the message. On the 7th of may just before we were going to spend him the rent, he sent us one

This is the curious part. After the LL gave the OP & co a reduction in rent, the OP then says that rent will be late. Did the OP say how long the rent would be late by?

expertrhino wrote: »

I made it clear in the message I sent him on the 29th that we would be going back when the lockdown was lifted/ work restarted which I told him would be this month.

I wonder did the OP "make it clear" when the OP & co would be paying the rent next?

pablo128

the_syco wrote: »

A long standing tradition is to call the OP out if details are in question.


If evictions notices are only legit if on paper, would said decrease only be legit if it's on paper? Also, would said decrease, if on paper, be considered a rent review in which the LL can't increase for another 2 years if in an RPZ?


The OP had left the accommodation by their own free will.


Unless the LL changed locks, they haven't prohibited the OP access.


I agree that the LL was wrong to remove the stuff, but I find it curious that the OP only paid up after the LL moved their stuff.


This is the curious part. After the LL gave the OP & co a reduction in rent, the OP then says that rent will be late. Did the OP say how long the rent would be late by?


I wonder did the OP "make it clear" when the OP & co would be paying the rent next?

In case you didn't notice, there's a worldwide pandemic on. Millions out of work. There's thousands of tenants in Ireland let alone the rest of the world are going to be late with rent, if they have it at all. Do they all get evicted after a week late with the rent?

the_syco

pablo128 wrote: »

In case you didn't notice, there's a worldwide pandemic on. Millions out of work. There's thousands of tenants in Ireland let alone the rest of the world are going to be late with rent, if they have it at all. Do they all get evicted after a week late with the rent?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/fears-over-swell-in-evictions-due-to-rent-arrears-after-covid-crisis-1.4249907

Housing charity Threshold has warned of a “swell” in tenants facing eviction notices after the coronavirus crisis on the back of mounting rent arrears.

The charity said that if rent supplements were not provided quickly and efficiently there was a risk of rent arrears accruing and “the risk of homelessness becomes real once the emergency period ends”.

Should OP lodge a complaint, they may not hear back from quite some time. Unless the government steps in, I fear that a lot of people will be homeless.

GreeBo

ted1 wrote: »

What is it ? I had a tenant do it before , only found it she moved when her neighbour said it to me.

Only realised she was still getting a cheque from the council several months later when the council asked how I had two sets of tenants, who were both getting cheques for rent. She had moved back home and was pocketing the rent cheque

What do you do when your tenant goes on holidays? Break in?

Had your tenant left all her possessions in your property?

jim salter

JustAThought wrote: »

There is also the question of the breech of contract on behalf of the OP - and the other 3 students. The LL is well within his rights to take a counter case for breech of contract and by the sounds of it could easily win. No visa to Austrlia, No J1 to America, to tripping around far east asia or Thailand - and doors shut to workng in entire industries for the rest of you life. A big price for not paying your rent but if you play with fore and f people over when they have been accommodating with you, you can expect trouble.

As for the deposit and the house was
there any damage to it? How much was owing on the bills - are they all up to date? I guess the ll will also have to pay someone to take out and dispose of those extra bunk beds you wanted to put in to keep the rent low for yourself. Assuming the OP had not moved in additional people without his knowledge also or done any damage to the house.

As for the covid 19 payment which I imagine could leave a full time student better off than if they worked - if you have negotiated a rent increase because you could not pay it, but then availed of a government benefit/handout that paid you at least 1,200 a month and yet still disn’t pay the rent I would also be bringing this up in both a breech of contract case and to the PRTB. Along with the rent reduction and non payment and then dissapppearance, It presents a very different picture. How much was owing on the bills?

The biggest load of fantastical shïte I have ever read, go back to reading the Dandy

mikemac2

JustAThought wrote: »

As for the covid 19 payment which I imagine could leave a full time student better off than if they worked - if you have negotiated a rent increase because you could not pay it, but then availed of a government benefit/handout that paid you at least 1,200 a month and yet still disn’t pay the rent I would also be bringing this up in both a breech of contract case and to the PRTB.

The OP and housemates negotiated a rent decrease

Calling it a handout is a bit sneering. There are certain to be people you know in your life who are on that payment. Tell them are getting a government handout

steddyeddy

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Paying the rent on time or at all.

Can I ask what countries have you lived in before Ireland? The rental legislation you seem familiar with seem more in line with Victorian England.

Being 7 days late with rent and communicating that to the landlord doesn't negate your personal rights. The landlord has to give prior permission before entering your residence, has to contact you if he suspects you've abandoned the property and under no circumstance is he allowed to remove your belongings from your residence at a whim!

People on this forum wonder why landlords get a bad name. It's because we've all encountered landlords with views like this.

I suggest people travel abroad and rent to see how amateur the situation can be in Ireland.

steddyeddy

So ladies and gentleman there we have it. The Irish rental situation summed up by:

break into the house, and steal their property

Claw Hammer wrote: »

So what. Two wrongs don't make a right.

What mentality are we dealing with when break ins and theft are met with "so what".

Caranica

No word from the OP after two business days. Here's hoping that they have gone to the RTB if their case is genuinely as laid out here.

newuser99999

Caranica wrote: »

No word from the OP after two business days. Here's hoping that they have gone to the RTB if their case is genuinely as laid out here.

Wouldn’t blame him for not posting again. He’s been attacked on this thread, like most renters are.

Lyan

newuser99999 wrote: »

Wouldn’t blame him for not posting again. He’s been attacked on this thread, like most renters are.

Well the thread also become a messy cesspool for armchair legal experts to argue.

FVP3

Caranica wrote: »

No word from the OP after two business days. Here's hoping that they have gone to the RTB if their case is genuinely as laid out here.

He's not a very frequent poster, but I hope he comes back, so we find out what is happening.

Eric Cartman

steddyeddy wrote: »

What mentality are we dealing with when break ins and theft are met with "so what".

The same mentality where theres a pervasive anti landlord culture that thinks on one hand we have a rental crisis and need to do everything in our power to get vacant properties filled but on the other hand the same people think being 37 days in rent arrears and leaving a property thats not even their primary residence vacant for over 2 months is fine.

“Its the law, the law, the law “ they cry out when a tenant stands to lose . But laws are unjust or need to be broken when it is they who stand to lose. Casual bootlicking when it suits an agenda.

The insanity of our rental laws are brought forth in this thread, 37 days rent delinquant and your stuff ends up available for collection in a secure unit should be standard practice , not an illegal furore. This os why we have a dysfunctional rental market.

Before anyone starts, if these people cane home from work one day to find the locks changed in their PPR then it would be different, but its students with another place to live who left a 2 bed apartment in dublin city vacant for 2 months

LeineGlas

LeineGlas wrote: »

Yes it has.

Gardaí absolutely need to be involved. Theft of property is illegal.

Oh ffs!

If you bothered your behind to read the full thread you would know I already explained this. You haven't a clue what you are talking about. Come back to me when you know what actually qualifies as theft

Grumpypants

Grumpypants wrote: »

Still doesn't matter, even at a stretch (if you took the agreed reduction as rent arrears). He didn't serve them the 14 day notice, he didn't serve them notice of eviction, he didn't give them the full 90 days notice.

He entered their home unlawfully, took their professions and moved them to another location, and evicted them unlawfully.

None of that is allowed.

OP needs to get onto the RTB and lodge a complaint. Get the ball rolling on a nice little cash settlement. Maybe they can use the 5-20K to rent a nicer place for the next year.

Don't disagree with you but I don't think the 90 days applies when it's an eviction for non payment. Thought it was like 14?

Ballso

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The same mentality where theres a pervasive anti landlord culture that thinks on one hand we have a rental crisis and need to do everything in our power to get vacant properties filled but on the other hand the same people think being 37 days in rent arrears and leaving a property thats not even their primary residence vacant for over 2 months is fine.

“Its the law, the law, the law “ they cry out when a tenant stands to lose . But laws are unjust or need to be broken when it is they who stand to lose. Casual bootlicking when it suits an agenda.

The insanity of our rental laws are brought forth in this thread, 37 days rent delinquant and your stuff ends up available for collection in a secure unit should be standard practice , not an illegal furore. This os why we have a dysfunctional rental market.

Before anyone starts, if these people cane home from work one day to find the locks changed in their PPR then it would be different, but its students with another place to live who left a 2 bed apartment in dublin city vacant for 2 months

More irrelevant waffle

Ballso

Ballso wrote: »

Only in the world of the amateur Irish landlord is entering a property without permission, loading thousands of euros worth of property into a van and driving it to a lockup not theft and not illegal. What a nightmare having to deal with these people in the rental sector.

Only in the world of amateur legal eagles can a person be condemned for a criminal act they in fact did not commit. It's all covered under the below act.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/50/section/4/enacted/en/html

Your argument is that the landlord is committing a Criminal act because A, he entered a property that he actually owns, as a trespasser and that he intended to commit a crime when inside the house that he owns. Yes, he could commit a crime in there, but he's not committing Criminal trespass. It's a civil trespass as it relates to a breach of tenency law.

In regards the actual theft, my understanding is that he notified the owners that the property is available to collect whenever they return. It's been moved but there's no intent to deprive the owners.

Your suggestion is that Landlord can't enter his own property without express permission and that if a tenant leaves property behind, he can't touch it ever. It's a rental property, not storage!

How the hell do you guys think storage lockers get emptied when people stop paying?

ted1

GreeBo wrote: »

What do you do when your tenant goes on holidays? Break in?

Had your tenant left all her possessions in your property?

I’d talk to them and remind them they can’t leave the house empty for 30 days. Especially if there’s issue with rent payments

She left some stuff.