Will you download the contact tracing app?

Handy little app. Why doesn't it include the passenger locator form like other countries and why can it only be downloaded by Irish phones? I know it's hot hard to change your country in the store but what's the issue with just allowing tourist phones?

robinph

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Handy little app. Why doesn't it include the passenger locator form like other countries and why can it only be downloaded by Irish phones? I know it's hot hard to change your country in the store but what's the issue with just allowing tourist phones?

It isn't restricted to just Irish phones, anyone in the EU (+ UK) can download it through Google at least.

plodder

KyussB wrote: »

The bolded part is the issue - location tracking needing to be enabled was discussed already, not the bolded issue:

Even if that is switched off, GPS is still enabled. In any case, it's no big deal, you can switch it off. Most people don't care about this. Its purpose is not to build information about you; it is to improve location services when people are indoors, away from GPS, by building up a database of wifi networks and their locations.

It seems odd to be arguing that one problem with this is that 'exposure notification' is tied to the location services, but fine-grained location is not tied to it, but they don't tell you how to switch it off.

It would confuse most users if they added that to their instructions. And the people who do worry about this stuff know how to switch it off anyway.

robinph

robinph wrote: »

It isn't restricted to just Irish phones, anyone in the EU (+ UK) can download it through Google at least.

It very clearly told me I could not download it on a Spanish phone. I needed to change my location to Ireland in the play store settings

Maybe it's changed in 2 weeks. I'll need to check again

robinph

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

It very clearly told me I could not download it on a Spanish phone. I needed to change my location to Ireland in the play store settings

Maybe it's changed in 2 weeks. I'll need to check again

EU wide geo restrictions were lifted a few weeks ago by Google on their app store for free apps, you can still only get paid for apps based on your local settings. The changes was in order to get around the likes of Covid apps needing to be available to people not registered in the country they were living in or visiting.

Not sure if Apple did the same or not.

KyussB

plodder wrote: »

Even if that is switched off, GPS is still enabled. In any case, it's no big deal, you can switch it off. Most people don't care about this. Its purpose is not to build information about you; it is to improve location services when people are indoors, away from GPS, by building up a database of wifi networks and their locations.

It seems odd to be arguing that one problem with this is that 'exposure notification' is tied to the location services, but fine-grained location is not tied to it, but they don't tell you how to switch it off.

It would confuse most users if they added that to their instructions. And the people who do worry about this stuff know how to switch it off anyway.

You don't speak for most people. Covid apps having a requirement that - unknown to many people, because they have not been informed that they need to disable an OS setting - will lead to sending records of your location information to Google, is a big deal - that's why officials in multiple governments are taking issue with it, as stated in the article.

fletch

Trinity researchers say user privacy 'not adequately protected' in Irish Covid Tracker app This is an issue with Google Play Services rather than Covid tracker apps...it's annoying as it will just feed the conspiracy theorist's narrative

MOH

robinph wrote: »

EU wide geo restrictions were lifted a few weeks ago by Google on their app store for free apps, you can still only get paid for apps based on your local settings. The changes was in order to get around the likes of Covid apps needing to be available to people not registered in the country they were living in or visiting.

Not sure if Apple did the same or not.

The reviews for the Irish Covid app on the day it launched on the Google Play Store had multiple reports of people unable to download it due to having UK or other European Play accounts

KyussB

fletch wrote: »

Trinity researchers say user privacy 'not adequately protected' in Irish Covid Tracker app This is an issue with Google Play Services rather than Covid tracker apps...it's annoying as it will just feed the conspiracy theorist's narrative

Good study. What conspiracy though? Everyone on all sides has stated tracking (in general - not specific to covid app privacy implications) is rampant, so it'd be rather odd for the same people to suggest that concerns about tracking are a conspiracy theory.

fletch

KyussB wrote: »

Good study. What conspiracy though?

That the government created the app to track us...

KyussB

Okey - I haven't seen much of that, mind. Overwhelmingly I've seen general privacy/tracking concerns, not specific to government tracking.

MOH

fletch wrote: »

Trinity researchers say user privacy 'not adequately protected' in Irish Covid Tracker app This is an issue with Google Play Services rather than Covid tracker apps...it's annoying as it will just feed the conspiracy theorist's narrative

It's a combination of things.

Location services on Android aren't on a per-app basis, they're centrally managed under Google Play Services.
Individual apps which want location information need Location permission, then get location data via Google Play Services

Permission for Bluetooth on Android falls under Location. (And from Android 10 on requires fine rather than coarse location access.)

So putting it all together, if you don't otherwise have location data enabled and you install the app, that requires you to grant Location permission. That in turn means Google Play Services will be providing that location data, which means leaking location information to Google.

Sure, it's less an issue with the app itself than a problem with Android having a centralised location system and not having a granular enough permission system to just enable Bluetooth. But it's still an issue, not a "narrative" or a "conspiracy theory".

robinph

MOH wrote: »

The reviews for the Irish Covid app on the day it launched on the Google Play Store had multiple reports of people unable to download it due to having UK or other European Play accounts

I downloaded it on day 1 with a non Irish Google account. Think they initially had things set up differently so that NI users could access it as well. A day or so later the EU wide geo restrictions were changed so there probably was a problem with certain non Irish networks or something.

plodder

KyussB wrote: »

You don't speak for most people. Covid apps having a requirement that - unknown to many people, because they have not been informed that they need to disable an OS setting - will lead to sending records of your location information to Google, is a big deal - that's why officials in multiple governments are taking issue with it, as stated in the article.

I don't speak for others, but there is evidence that most people don't care:

https://blog.localz.com/localz-survey-results-80-percent-of-smartphone-users-enable-location-services

and more recently

https://themanifest.com/mobile-apps/do-people-trust-apps-track-their-location

57% comfortable using location tracking apps, 15% uncomfortable.

If most people are happy to use location tracking apps, then location services are already on. 'Play services' is already uploading location info, nothing to do with this app.

Good study. What conspiracy though? Everyone on all sides has stated tracking (in general - not specific to covid app privacy implications) is rampant, so it'd be rather odd for the same people to suggest that concerns about tracking are a conspiracy theory.

It's a conspiracy to suggest that Google might be using the data for a purpose other than what they say it is for.

I think it's great that so many people are looking at these mobile platforms and examining closer than ever before the privacy implications. But, there are some things in that report that they recommend which don't seem wise to me. Eg disabling use of Google SafetyNet. That stops the covid app from running on hacked/modified phones. I think these researchers naturally would want to be able to probe the system using modified (rooted) phones, but allowing that generally opens the system up to actual hackers as well.

fly_agaric

From that TCD paper posted (just read abstract)

We note the health authority client app component of these
contact tracing apps has generally received considerable public
scrutiny and typically has a Data Protection Impact Assessment,
whereas no such public documents exist for the GAEN component
of these apps. Extending public governance to the full contact
tracing ecosystem, not just of the health authority client app
component, therefore seems to be urgently needed if public
confidence is to be maintained.

Seems to be about the companies and their greed for user data as opposed to a flaw in the contact tracing applications themselves.
As we've seen, most users will never mess about with these phone settings or worry about what Google or Apple knows about them, so long as they get the services they want.

Unfortunately, unless the governments develop their own solutions from the ground up it is unavoidable. Afair UK and some others tried that path initially, but it was always going to be a failure. They have to work within the playing field as set out for them by Google/Apple and their mobile OSes that dominate the market. The paper's authors are not very realistic there.

Should it have ever gotten to that point - no, but colectively governments have decided not to put sufficient manners on these large US technology companies.
Ironically Ireland is of course a country that arguably acts as their trusty little rep inside the EU to help blunt efforts that might regulate them properly.

KyussB

plodder wrote: »

I don't speak for others, but there is evidence that most people don't care:

https://blog.localz.com/localz-survey-results-80-percent-of-smartphone-users-enable-location-services

and more recently

https://themanifest.com/mobile-apps/do-people-trust-apps-track-their-location

57% comfortable using location tracking apps, 15% uncomfortable.

If most people are happy to use location tracking apps, then location services are already on. 'Play services' is already uploading location info, nothing to do with this app.


It's a conspiracy to suggest that Google might be using the data for a purpose other than what they say it is for.

I think it's great that so many people are looking at these mobile platforms and examining closer than ever before the privacy implications. But, there are some things in that report that they recommend which don't seem wise to me. Eg disabling use of Google SafetyNet. That stops the covid app from running on hacked/modified phones. I think these researchers naturally would want to be able to probe the system using modified (rooted) phones, but allowing that generally opens the system up to actual hackers as well.

Your links show the opposite of what you claim, and backs my point - that only 25% who are comfortable with location tracking, are unconcerned.

Who said Google may be doing something other than what they claim with the data?

robinph

KyussB wrote: »

Your links show the opposite of what you claim, and backs my point - that only 25% who are comfortable with location tracking, are unconcerned.

Who said Google may be doing something other than what they claim with the data?

What links were you reading?

The only mention of "25%" in either of those articles was in relation to "location based payments", whatever that is.

KyussB

https://tm.shgstatic.com/prod/public/inline-images/Graph-2_why-people-feel-comfortable-location-tracking-apps_pt.2.jpg

robinph

KyussB wrote: »

https://tm.shgstatic.com/prod/public/inline-images/Graph-2_why-people-feel-comfortable-location-tracking-apps_pt.2.jpg

That doesn't show what you are claiming.

The answer doesn't show that "only" 25% are unconcerned about location tracking, it shows that of the people who are happy with location tracking 25% of them think it's not an issue to be concerned about. From the same chart 42% are happy with location tracking because of it's convenience and 29% because it improves their safety.

There is another couple of reasons given to make up the other missing 4% of answers from people who were perfectly happy with location tracking but they didn't collate them into a separate bar on the chart for you. 100% of the people asked that question were happy with location tracking.

plodder

KyussB wrote: »

Your links show the opposite of what you claim, and backs my point - that only 25% who are comfortable with location tracking, are unconcerned.

I never said people don't or shouldn't have concerns. If 80% are willing to share their location with apps that are actually tracking them, then that means on balance they see the benefits outweigh the concerns.

And in this app, nobody is tracking you, so if we can get past the disinformation being put out, it seems reasonable that people won't be too concerned about this either.

KyussB

robinph wrote: »

That doesn't show what you are claiming.

The answer doesn't show that "only" 25% are unconcerned about location tracking, it shows that of the people who are happy with location tracking 25% of them think it's not an issue to be concerned about. From the same chart 42% are happy with location tracking because of it's convenience and 29% because it improves their safety.

There is another couple of reasons given to make up the other missing 4% of answers from people who were perfectly happy with location tracking but they didn't collate them into a separate bar on the chart for you. 100% of the people asked that question were happy with location tracking.

Unless you're claiming that the questions on the survey are ill-formed, leading to misleading answers, then that's exactly what it's saying.

Accepting trade offs in privacy for the sake of convenience, doesn't mean being unconcerned about privacy.

KyussB

plodder wrote: »

I never said people don't or shouldn't have concerns. If 80% are willing to share their location with apps that are actually tracking them, then that means on balance they see the benefits outweigh the concerns.

And in this app, nobody is tracking you, so if we can get past the disinformation being put out, it seems reasonable that people won't be too concerned about this either.

You said most people don't care. That's exactly saying that people are unconcerned.

People accepting a privacy tradeoff in return for a convenience - doesn't mean they don't care. The survey appears to consider this, and specifically count those who are unconcerned/don't-care.

Who said the app is tracking you?

robinph

KyussB wrote: »

Unless you're claiming that the questions on the survey are ill-formed, leading to misleading answers, then that's exactly what it's saying.

Accepting trade offs in privacy for the sake of convenience, doesn't mean being unconcerned about privacy.

The question is perfectly clear and of people who are comfortable with the location tracking it merely asks why. Some will have given their primary reason as safety, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't equally have ticked the unconcerned box or the convenience box, or all of them.

The question is specifically asking people who are unconcerned about why they are unconcerned and 25% didn't have any particular reason for being unconcerned.

KyussB

KyussB wrote: »

The bolded part is the issue - location tracking needing to be enabled was discussed already, not the bolded issue:

An Android problem not an app problem

robinph

KyussB wrote: »

Who said the app is tracking you?

You are in the thread repeatedly posting about tracking problems that may or may not exist whilst being careful about if you mention the app or the OS at any point so you can then go back and plead innocence about ever having mentioned the app. If you have a problem with the app, then let us know what it actually is. If you have a problem with the OS then you are better off to take it to a thread about the OS as it's not relevant to the app.

KyussB

robinph wrote: »

The question is perfectly clear and of people who are comfortable with the location tracking it merely asks why. Some will have given their primary reason as safety, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't equally have ticked the unconcerned box or the convenience box, or all of them.

The question is specifically asking people who are unconcerned about why they are unconcerned and 25% didn't have any particular reason for being unconcerned.

You're lying about what the question from the survey is now:
https://tm.shgstatic.com/prod/public/inline-images/Graph-2_why-people-feel-comfortable-location-tracking-apps_pt.2.jpg

KyussB

Deleted User wrote: »

An Android problem not an app problem

An Android problem relevant to users of the app.

robinph

KyussB wrote: »

You're lying about what the question from the survey is now:
https://tm.shgstatic.com/prod/public/inline-images/Graph-2_why-people-feel-comfortable-location-tracking-apps_pt.2.jpg

N=620 people who feel comfortable with location tracking apps

Those 620 people were then asked:

Why do you feel comfortable using location tracking apps?

KyussB

robinph wrote: »

You are in the thread repeatedly posting about tracking problems that may or may not exist whilst being careful about if you mention the app or the OS at any point so you can then go back and plead innocence about ever having mentioned the app. If you have a problem with the app, then let us know what it actually is. If you have a problem with the OS then you are better off to take it to a thread about the OS as it's not relevant to the app.

It's a privacy issue relevant to use of the app - here is the article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/technology/google-covid-tracker-app.html

Are you a mod on this subforum or something? Do you get to decide if an article noting real/known privacy issues through use of contact tracing apps, is relevant here?

Very much seems a current affair to me, if our national contact tracing app, is the type affected by the privacy concerns the above article highlights...

KyussB

robinph wrote: »

N=620 people who feel comfortable with location tracking apps

Those 620 people were then asked:

Why do you feel comfortable using location tracking apps?

Right. Comfortable does not equal unconcerned about privacy. Perhaps why they included an answer, to specifically say unconcerned...