The Hobby Horses of Belief (and assorted hazards)

Igotadose

^^I could not be considered for a job at my wife's employer for reasons @Peregrinus states. Major financial services companies, would not hire married people, and moved them to different parts of the business should they marry after working there.

Hotblack Desiato

In the Joy, if you're seeing visions they'll be over HDMI.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41524919.html

The chaplains’ union Forsa

Yep, Catholic priests on the State payroll.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122892892#Comment_122892892

Did you think they worked for free?

Hotblack Desiato

Why doesn't the diocese pay for it if they want to provide services to their club members?

Prison visitors without a religious agenda are volunteers

The Constitution says the state may not endow a religion.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122894713#Comment_122894713

It isnt endowing a religion. It is providing a service to prisoners of all faiths.

Peregrinus

What ohno said. The Constitution guarantees the freedom to practice religion, and that guarantee extends to prisoners. The state therefore has an obligation to ensure that religious ministry is available to those prisoners who wish to avail of it — hence prison chaplaincy.

This isn't a uniquely Irish arrangements. Other republics with a consitutional commitment to secularity, the separation of church and state, prohibitions on the endowment of religion, and the like, such as France and the US, also pay prison chaplains out of public funds, because they take the constitutional rights of prisoners seriously.

I'm not aware of any court in any country that has a prohibition on the endowment of religion that has ruled that paying chaplains for ministering to prisoners amounts the "endowment of religion".

Hotblack Desiato

A state funded job for which only Catholic priests can apply. Army is the same.

The state therefore has an obligation to ensure that religious ministry is available to those prisoners who wish to avail of it — hence prison chaplaincy.

The state shouldn't stand in its way, but that doesn't mean being obliged to fund religious practice via taxes.

Peregrinus

What makes you think only Catholics can apply? Genuine question.

Igotadose

They're in prison. You lose rights. Why should the State care one whit if you're allowed to exercise your delusion?

You can get back to it, when you're out of prison. If you're in for life, well, sorry about that. The state obviously provides video facilities. There you go.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122895199#Comment_122895199

Plenty of state funded jobs for which only qualified people can apply.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122895256#Comment_122895256

Maybe a dumb question, but does the state also provide an Imam or Rabbi?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122895421#Comment_122895421

Doesn't seem like it; reached this conclusion via a brief skim of

https://mural.maynoothuniversity.ie/18399/1/huad001.pdf

Seems like its up to the individual prison for anything other than Catholocism.

Nothing wrong with that imo to be adopted by all prisons. It's the pernicious influence of the RCC on Irish infrastructure (prisons) yet again. Nothing will change.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122895256#Comment_122895256

Because this is Ireland, a country where the institutions of state were entirely captured by the RCC and are only slowly and tediously being untangled from that amid much resistance.

The DF's outsourcing of chaplain recruitment to bishops was successfully challenged recently - but as it was specifically the DF's regulations which were challenged, it's only applicable there: https://atheist.ie/2023/03/religious-discrimination-in-employing-military-chaplains/

(I'd forgotten that this challenge had concluded successfully)

We still have this in ETB schools though:

https://atheist.ie/2022/08/catholic-chaplains/

The Catholic Church told the court that if the State didn’t fund Catholic Chaplains then they would be obliged to pay for them.

Well, duh! That Supreme Court decision is looking very dubious from today's perspective.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122895421#Comment_122895421

Plenty of state funded jobs for which only qualified people can apply.

We spend many posts here arguing that the ability to teach kids, with a straight face, that a Jewish carpenter was a magic man should not be an essential qualification to be a teacher.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122896439#Comment_122896439

where have you read that only catholic priests can apply to be prison chaplains?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122896476#Comment_122896476

Mythical Jewish carpenter.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122896476#Comment_122896476

My comment was in reference to your statement that chaplain is 'a state funded job for which only Catholic priests can apply'. I suspect your assertion is wrong here, a quick google on the interweb comes up with the following;

"The chaplain is a witness to the Christian way of life. The role was traditionally held by a priest or a religious sister or brother, but this has changed over the years. Now 

the majority of full-time school chaplains are lay people"

Given there are so few vocations actually happening here, this seems reasonable.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122897356#Comment_122897356

these are the requirements for applicants to a chaplaincy position. i dont see any mention of a particular religion

Applicants are required to hold a recognised professional qualification in pastoral care or equivalent, a recognised professional qualification in theology, and have a minimum of one year’s pastoral experience in a community, school, hospital, prison or other similar setting.

https://www.thejournal.ie/chaplains-irish-prisons-2-4143594-Jul2018/

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122897356#Comment_122897356

I only mentioned Catholic priests in relation to the prison role, which mentions performing masses, and in the DF where it was limited to clergy until very recently.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122900273#Comment_122900273

Fair enough, but in your post quoting mine, you move the subject onto teaching kids, Jewish carpenters, magic men etc. I'm in agreement that the state funding chaplains for any public organisation is both a waste of taxpayers money on the one hand and contrary to the secular principal that the state should not be advocating for (or against) religion on the other. I also strongly agree that teachers in any publicly funded schools (let along the majority of those schools) should not have to profess membership of any religion or advocate for it to the student body. At the same time, ridiculing the belief system at every opportunity doesn't do anything to progress the argument in my opinion. Quite the opposite, in that it confirms the narky atheist stereotype which in turn undermines the secular position.

Hotblack Desiato

Fair enough, but in your post quoting mine, you move the subject onto teaching kids, Jewish carpenters, magic men etc.

Yes, I only mentioned teachers because it's a very common state job with a religious requirement (about 95% of the time, anyway, at primary level)

Complaining about ridiculing religion (which I didn't) in a thread called the hobby horses of belief, though?!

It seems any criticism of religion now, in this forum of all places, is nitpicked to death. I'm reminded of the "fight the common enemy" scene in Life of Brian.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122900577#Comment_122900577

People can be as critical of religion as they like on this forum and regularly are, likewise we can be similarly critical of other folks posts. My opinion is that comments which take side swipes at religious belief while arguing against the concrete damage it has done, abuses of personal freedoms, undue influence on society, etc. weaken those arguments. Doesn't mean I haven't done it myself on occasion, but I struggle to see the purpose it serves other than preaching to the choir. Can't see it making your arguments any more persuasive to someone holding a contrary point of view.

Hotblack Desiato

Which forum am I in again? 🙄

Where can the absolute bollox that is religion be rightly riduculed, if not here?

You are genuflecting in front of something which does not deserve respect, quite the opposite

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122907974#Comment_122907974

We seem to have very different outlooks here. Repeatedly ridiculing religious belief for the sake of it on this forum simply discourages those with firmly held religious beliefs from engaging here. For those on the fence, it confirms the common meme of the narky overly sarcastic atheist, not something many folks want to identify with, myself included.

I'm very much of the opinion that Ireland is becoming an increasingly diverse society which includes people with a wide variety of closely held beliefs, philosophies and ideologies. While I might personally find many of these beliefs to be ridiculous, it is my belief that it is important to celebrate this diversity as part of our changing community. If you look at the only real success in moving away from mono-cultural Catholicism within the primary education sector, it is Educate Together, who advocate precisely this philosophy.

Just my opinion, but taking a few digs at religion (or anything else) for shíts and giggles is grand where it is either genuinely funny or used to strengthen an argument. Overused it becomes boring and inane.

Hotblack Desiato

The diminshing cohort with sincerely held religious beliefs aren't engaging anywhere on Boards, not in the other place and not here. When they did, here, their arguments were found severely lacking but that's another story.

Some of us have been personally damaged by religion and many of us can see the severe damage it has done to our society and is continuing to do around the world. Holding that which has been held 'sacred' and beyond critique up to ridicule is an effective means of encouraging people to look critically at things they might otherwise ignore. Look at 18th-century satirical and political cartoons, they're vicious by today's standards. Someone always needs to point out that the emperor has no clothes.

Glaceon

So, I got shadowbanned from YouTube comments yesterday because I triggered an American conservative in an anti-trans video. He said Europe needs to adopt Trump's ways and quoted some religious crap. I replied to say that they need to keep that to themselves and that we stopped following magical sky fairies a long time ago. He replied to say that he reported me for hate speech. So someone can spout anti-trans bile on YouTube in the name of religion, but I get banned for "hate speech"?

I know it's not the end of the world and life will go on, and I don't mean for this to start a trans conversation, but I just wanted to rant a bit!

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920260#Comment_122920260

The right wing in the US (and elsewhere) are the biggest snowflakes in history.

robindch

[Igotadose] The right wing in the US (and elsewhere) are the biggest snowflakes in history.

Self-victimization and grievance-seeking is huge business these days - it can even help you get elected prezzident.

Odhinn

"At least 110 mostly elderly people have been brutally murdered by gang members in the Haitian capital, Port-au-Prince, according to a human rights group.

The National Human Rights Defence Network (RNDDH) said a local gang leader had targeted them after his son fell ill and subsequently died.

The gang leader reportedly consulted a voodoo priest who blamed elderly locals practising "witchcraft" for the boy's mystery illness."

"According to reports, gang members seized scores of residents aged over 60 from their homes in the Wharf Jérémie area, rounded them up and then shot or stabbed them to death with knives and machetes. "

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp3zw2dpqgpo

robindch

Rev Dr Paul Chamberlain definitely on the naughty step this year.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/lifestyle/lifestylegeneral/vicar-accused-of-ruining-christmas-by-telling-tearful-year-6-pupils-santa-isn-t-real/ar-AA1vQ5dE

Primary school children were left in tears when a no-nonsense vicar told them Father Christmas was not real - and livid parents have forced the man of God to say sorry. The vicar was addressing year six at Lee-on-the-Solent Junior School in Hampshire as a visitor from the nearby St Faith's Church. He is said to have told them: "You're all year six, now let's be real, Santa isn't real". Rev Dr Chamberlain is also claimed to have told the kids their parents were responsible for scoffing the cookies many children leave out for Father Christmas on Christmas Eve. One parent told MailOnline: "I don't know how it can be undone, but I think it's absolutely disgusting." Another claimed "lots of children started crying in class", leaving many parents desperately trying to comfort their children. They have been left trying to emphasise as much "magic" as possible over this Christmas to counterbalance the vicar's comment. A spokesman for the Diocese of Portsmouth told the paper: "We understand that the vicar of St Faith's, Lee-on-the-Solent, the Rev Paul Chamberlain, was leading an RE lesson for 10 and 11-year-olds at Lee-on-the-Solent Junior School. After talking about the Nativity story from the Bible, he made some comments about the existence of Father Christmas. Paul has accepted that this was an error of judgment and he should not have done so. He apologised unreservedly to the school, to the parents and the children [...]"

Notwithstanding the awful AI-tone of the msn 'articla', honestly, ten and eleven year olds still believing in Santa?

CptMackey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122955612#Comment_122955612

So what if 10 or 11 year olds believe in Santa. They will be adults long enough. Leave them be kids for as long as possible.