Is farming actually profitable?

6o9fv7jpreb180

Little background.. moved home from abroad a few years back, teaching close enough to home. Have planning permission on home farm and father is coming close to retirement. Have signed up to do Green Cert. Farm about 60 acres and only sheep on it.

Anyways, been thinking about getting into the "family business". I'd have grown up doing jobs and know a bit about sheep. However, I havent a notion about the finances or running a farm. Its not something I'd do for the love of it or to break even.

I know its a "how long is a piece of string?" question, but could a farm that size be profitable?? All I ever hear is how theres no money in farming.

Thanks for reading and any feedback welcome.

Rows Grower

Carmen Angry Advertisement wrote: »

Little background.. moved home from abroad a few years back, teaching close enough to home. Have planning permission on home farm and father is coming close to retirement. Have signed up to do Green Cert. Farm about 60 acres and only sheep on it.

Anyways, been thinking about getting into the "family business". I'd have grown up doing jobs and know a bit about sheep. However, I havent a notion about the finances or running a farm. Its not something I'd do for the love of it or to break even.

I know its a "how long is a piece of string?" question, but could a farm that size be profitable?? All I ever hear is how theres no money in farming.

Thanks for reading and any feedback welcome.

Most of the sheep farmers I know would have more than 60 acres and also work part time or full time at some other job to make ends meet.

MrMusician18

Farming is profitable if you're in the right line of work and have sufficient scale.

The issue we have now is that the scale required has gotten so large that it has overtaken those that once thought they were immune to the small/part time farmer profitability issues.

Dinzee Conlee

Carmen Angry Advertisement wrote: »

Little background.. moved home from abroad a few years back, teaching close enough to home. Have planning permission on home farm and father is coming close to retirement. Have signed up to do Green Cert. Farm about 60 acres and only sheep on it.

Anyways, been thinking about getting into the "family business". I'd have grown up doing jobs and know a bit about sheep. However, I havent a notion about the finances or running a farm. Its not something I'd do for the love of it or to break even.

I know its a "how long is a piece of string?" question, but could a farm that size be profitable?? All I ever hear is how theres no money in farming.

Thanks for reading and any feedback welcome.

Farming is not really very profitable. Not if properly worked out in a money earned vs hours worked kinda way...

You have a primary job teaching, which is a well paid job. If you have no love for it, why would you want to work a second, minimum wage (if that) job?

Birdnuts

Depends what you mean?? the vast majority of farmers would be at a loss without CAP payments and even with them many struggle to turn any profit. Its certainly a sad state of affairs with the only winners being big agri-business , corporations etc. who get their hands on a vast amount of farmers produce for below the cost of production. Things were actually alot more sustainable 50 years ago(pre CAP and intensification) with alot less inputs and a much greater diversity of produce coming from most farms eg. back then nearly eveyone milked a few cows, had a few pigs etc so when one market was soft other markets filled the void

Gawddawggonnit

Birdnuts wrote: »

Depends what you mean?? the vast majority of farmers would be at a loss without CAP payments and even with them many struggle to turn any profit. Its certainly a sad state of affairs with the only winners being big agri-business , corporations etc. who get their hands on a vast amount of farmers produce for below the cost of production. Things were actually alot more sustainable 50 years ago(pre CAP and intensification) with alot less inputs and a much greater diversity of produce coming from most farms eg. back then nearly eveyone milked a few cows, had a few pigs etc so when one market was soft other markets filled the void

Maybe return to the old “a cow, a sow, and an acre under plough”?
It, as you say, would even out the volatility of modern farming. Farm diversification doesn’t necessarily mean opening a farm B&B.

mickdw

If you get the farm at no cost, you should surely be able to make a few thousand per year with small input.

lalababa

Ask your father to do a profit and loss statement. And you will know about sheep on 60 acres anywayðŸ˜.

wallycool

Look at your father's accounts after all his years farming and minus off the pension. That will give you a good idea how mush you will make.

s1ippy

mickdw wrote: »

If you get the farm at no cost, you should surely be able to make a few thousand per year with small input.

This is what strikes me. You could be self sufficient easily if you were any way resourceful.

This book will help you find out everything you need to know. I have a patch of grass in just outside the city and I have very low food costs at I grow most of my own now.

Donald Trump

wallycool wrote: »

Look at your father's accounts after all his years farming and minus off the pension. That will give you a good idea how mush you will make lose.

Noticed you had a misspelling or two there. I fixed the most important one.

Is it hard to make a full living from a normal size irish farm that isn't a dairy farm, the answer is yes.

But with the BPS, other schemes and running things fairly well well there is certainly scope to make extra money on the side in addition to your salary from your off farm job. Maximising things like tax relief etc when starting out is important, thats the time to spend money if it needs to be as you will be able to write it off against off farm income.

Put simply hard to make a full living but definitely possible to be profitable and supplement your off farm income with additional income from the farm.

Mooooo

Get into the financials of how the farm is doing at the minute. You have the advantage in that teaching is a job which can lend itself well to farming part time. See what your parents want also, prob the most important part. Accountant as well.

Timmaay

+1 to what your parents want, especially your dad, is he the sort of person who wants to retire fully and hand everything over to you while he jets off to Spain every winter etc lol, or much more like the typical older farmer still well happy to tip away at it while he is still able? If its the 2nd and its moreso the current workload and paperwork that's getting to him, can you look at simplifying the system, this would most like mean scale back, but once the farm itself breaks even at the minimum effort, but yous get to hang on to any of the payments going that's as good as your gonna get.

The other alternative is long term lease, could be either all of the farm or say hang onto some to let your dad still farm away if he wants.


What's the current setup on the farm, and have you spotted any obvious low hanging fruit to simplify it?

Bass Reeves

Yes farming is profitable. However you have to forget about output and efficiently. Concentrate on profitability. Not sure what type of land your father has but in general sheep is profitable second only to dairying if land is good enough.

I would imagine that if it is a sixty acre farm.lamd is probably mid quality and not.mountain type land. Is it capable of finishing lamb off the land before Autumn.

6o9fv7jpreb180

Thanks for the replies..much appreciated.. will do more research. My dad will definitely not be off to Spain!!

Dickie10

Try not to use your teaching money to keep the farm going. Im teacher here as well, I took over the farm 5 years ago. keep two separate bank accounts , lucky enough i never had to dip into my work account. Might do this year as I have taken land and have to stock it, but i will see how I go.

99nsr125

Only dairy and potatoes is actually profitable

Barrier to entry for potatoes is very large

A full on dairy conversion was circa €250k but in a reasonable year would return 80k as your wage after costs. Milk prices fluctuate and it's a full time enterprise with considerable knowledge needed.

Carmen Angry Advertisement wrote: »

Little background.. moved home from abroad a few years back, teaching close enough to home. Have planning permission on home farm and father is coming close to retirement. Have signed up to do Green Cert. Farm about 60 acres and only sheep on it.

Anyways, been thinking about getting into the "family business". I'd have grown up doing jobs and know a bit about sheep. However, I havent a notion about the finances or running a farm. Its not something I'd do for the love of it or to break even.

I know its a "how long is a piece of string?" question, but could a farm that size be profitable?? All I ever hear is how theres no money in farming.

Thanks for reading and any feedback welcome.

Its profitable,but not enough to justify time spent,if you dont have a love for them


Lifes too short for that,let it,plant it or sell it

Cavanjack

99nsr125 wrote: »

Only dairy and potatoes is actually profitable

Barrier to entry for potatoes is very large

A full on dairy conversion was circa €250k but in a reasonable year would return 80k as your wage after costs. Milk prices fluctuate and it's a full time enterprise with considerable knowledge needed.

Define profit? If you get 5k in glas money 10k in sfp 2k anc per year and you’ve a few cattle or sheep roaming round the place that are covering themselves is that not profit?
Run the car/jeep, heat the house, have light in the house pay your phone bill all through the farm so you get a bit of tax relief on it. Of Course 60 acres can be profitable alongside a job. You won’t make 60k a year on it but you can make a profit on it if you run it like a 60 acre farm.
Many 60 acre farms carry on like they’ve a couple of hundred acres. New land cruiser, ifor Williams, all their own machinery, baler, wrapper slurry tankers because “they don’t want to be waiting for the contractor” to cut 15 acres!!!!
As for the op. If you don’t have a love for it rent it out tax free, then it will definitely be profitable.

Mooooo

99nsr125 wrote: »

Only dairy and potatoes is actually profitable

Barrier to entry for potatoes is very large

A full on dairy conversion was circa €250k but in a reasonable year would return 80k as your wage after costs. Milk prices fluctuate and it's a full time enterprise with considerable knowledge needed.

Fair play to ya if you can get 80k off 60 acres in a reasonable year..........

Bass Reeves

99nsr125 wrote: »

Only dairy and potatoes is actually profitable

Barrier to entry for potatoes is very large

A full on dairy conversion was circa €250k but in a reasonable year would return 80k as your wage after costs. Milk prices fluctuate and it's a full time enterprise with considerable knowledge needed.

I think he said 60 acres in Mayo not 60HA in West Cork.

OP if the farm is set up for sheep and is capable of being stocked at 2-3 ewe to the acre if run fairly efficiently will leave a margin of 5-10K, every 20 more that can be carried will add another700-1k in net margin.

SFP will be 3.6k minimum, ANC is 2.5-3k, an enviormental scheme will add 3-4k and depending on your number of ewes different premium will add another 1.5-2k

A farm that size is capable of turning 20k in a net margin minimum if run with profitability mind

Dickie10

Cavanjack wrote: »

Define profit? If you get 5k in glas money 10k in sfp 2k anc per year and you’ve a few cattle or sheep roaming round the place that are covering themselves is that not profit?
Run the car/jeep, heat the house, have light in the house pay your phone bill all through the farm so you get a bit of tax relief on it. Of Course 60 acres can be profitable alongside a job. You won’t make 60k a year on it but you can make a profit on it if you run it like a 60 acre farm.
Many 60 acre farms carry on like they’ve a couple of hundred acres. New land cruiser, ifor Williams, all their own machinery, baler, wrapper slurry tankers because “they don’t want to be waiting for the contractor” to cut 15 acres!!!!
As for the op. If you don’t have a love for it rent it out tax free, then it will definitely be profitable.

100% i kept away from most of this when i started, no jeep, no trailer, i had a 8/4 flat bed with rails, ancient fertiliser spreader which i still have, no slurry tanker or agitator. all i had were a 75 hp tractor and small trialer for the bog. every few year i gathered a few pound for something i badly needed. the car gave up so i got an old 97 landcrusier 3 years ago still flying. bought a new ifor williams deck trailer all right 4 years ago, as i was begining to move around 300 lambs to factory a year so took the plunge. better off put your money into stock numbers , there a good way of keeping money together, spend any extra getting fencing right. i still get contractor to do most jobs like slurry and baling and silage and im farming 150 acres . its a big mistake some lads make buying new shiny things.

Bass Reeves

Dickie10 wrote: »

100% i kept away from most of this when i started, no jeep, no trailer, i had a 8/4 flat bed with rails, ancient fertiliser spreader which i still have, no slurry tanker or agitator. all i had were a 75 hp tractor and small trialer for the bog. every few year i gathered a few pound for something i badly needed. the car gave up so i got an old 97 landcrusier 3 years ago still flying. bought a new ifor williams deck trailer all right 4 years ago, as i was begining to move around 300 lambs to factory a year so took the plunge. better off put your money into stock numbers , there a good way of keeping money together, spend any extra getting fencing right. i still get contractor to do most jobs like slurry and baling and silage and im farming 150 acres . its a big mistake some lads make buying new shiny things.

Machinery adds cost. You are getting away with a 75HP tractor. If you had a slurry tank and mower you would be looking at a 100HP tractor burning more diesel. Stock for profit and fencing for labour saving after that its a case of limit your machinery

I funny enough have two tractors a Case Cx80 2WD was going to trade it in when looking for the 4WD( bought a MCCormick CX90) but I was getting only 7-8K for it was worth that sitting in the yard. I tried to sell private and best offer was 9K. After that, chain harrow, sprayer, fertlizer spreader, 8' disc mower, 8X5 box, Toyota RAV, a single and double rear handlers, hydraulic bale handler for the loader, as well a front and rear bale spike.

Slurry this year cost 1300 euro, hedges 500 euro, contractor charges 10.bale to mow and bale. Will really consider offloading some few bits and pieces but some are backup in case the 2Wd has to take the workload if the MCCormick acted up

degetme

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Machinery adds cost. You are getting away with a 75HP tractor. If you had a slurry tank and mower you would be looking at a 100HP tractor burning more diesel. Stock for profit and fencing for labour saving after that its a case of limit your machinery

I funny enough have two tractors a Case Cx80 2WD was going to trade it in when looking for the 4WD( bought a MCCormick CX90) but I was getting only 7-8K for it was worth that sitting in the yard. I tried to sell private and best offer was 9K. After that, chain harrow, sprayer, fertlizer spreader, 8' disc mower, 8X5 box, Toyota RAV, a single and double rear handlers, hydraulic bale handler for the loader, as well a front and rear bale spike.

Slurry this year cost 1300 euro, hedges 500 euro, contractor charges 10.bale to mow and bale. Will really consider offloading some few bits and pieces but some are backup in case the 2Wd has to take the workload if the MCCormick acted up

Is your contractor charging you 10e a bale so to mow and bale? What about wrapping and plastic? Are you using net or plastic on the 10e a bale? Any vat being charged

Bass Reeves

degetme wrote: »

Is your contractor charging you 10e a bale so to mow and bale? What about wrapping and plastic? Are you using net or plastic on the 10e a bale? Any vat being charged

Mow bale and wrap for 10 euro last year might be a drop this year with diesel down so much. He uses net. He is Vat registered, I pay by cheque. I buy the plastic, if I can get it I use silo wrap. If first cut is exceptionally dry I go 6 layers as opposed to 4. I will probably use an additive as well

Dickie10

well in fairness i have an old 96 jcb teleporter which is a godsend, its my brothers he uses it an odd time building but its there all winter and most summer, i feed with that. have a roller ,chain harrow and quad. thats really it. wouldnt dream of bringing cattle to the factory or from the mart myself. plenty of licenesed and insured hauliers to do that. my cousin is an AI man and mad busy in summer, the last few times he got a lad to mow, bale ,wrap and draw in and stack his bales. did his days work came home at 9 pm and the bales stacked in the yard.

davidk1394

From my experience and as previous posters have said dairy is the most profitable enterprise followed by vegetables and potatoes and then tillage. Sheep is the most profitable drystock enterprise. There is money out of it but not enough to both reinvest and live off of. The BPS and other schemes like GLAS are a help.

The initial investment for sheep is low. All you need is a good fence, decent handling facilities, a shed and a good dog. If the ground is free draining, sow a winter crop like kale or swedes. It's expensive day one but it pays for itself during the winter. Sheep usually require more handling than cattle and it's harder to put money together with sheep than cattle. I sold all the sheep recently and I am going down the dairy route for 2021

Young95

davidk1394 wrote: »

From my experience and as previous posters have said dairy is the most profitable enterprise followed by vegetables and potatoes and then tillage. Sheep is the most profitable drystock enterprise. There is money out of it but not enough to both reinvest and live off of. The BPS and other schemes like GLAS are a help.

The initial investment for sheep is low. All you need is a good fence, decent handling facilities, a shed and a good dog. If the ground is free draining, sow a winter crop like kale or swedes. It's expensive day one but it pays for itself during the winter. Sheep usually require more handling than cattle and it's harder to put money together with sheep than cattle. I sold all the sheep recently and I am going down the dairy route for 2021

Have you fed ewes swedes before David ? If so how did u manage them and how many ewes would an acre feed ?

Bass Reeves

Here is one about farm profitability. Today I had to get two rollers for the garage door. They were 60 euro net.of vat.

Not here is the question about profit monitor for my beef do I allow them as cost at the end of the year. Now the garage is 80-90% domestic use. If I put them in the accounts they will deduct about a euro per bullock from the bottom line. I be crying in my soup if I do not make a profit. If I do not allow me them into my accounts and make a profit the tax man will take about 50% of the euro

davidk1394

Young95 wrote: »

Have you fed ewes swedes before David ? If so how did u manage them and how many ewes would an acre feed ?

Yes, it was done here for a number of years and worked well. The twins and triplets were on swedes from the 5/6th of January to the beginning of March. Stocking rate depended on the crop but usually 60 ewes per acre. I never bothered with strip grazing. I gave them mineral licks, straw and a lie back onto grass.

Cavanjack

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Here is one about farm profitability. Today I had to get two rollers for the garage door. They were 60 euro net.of vat.

Not here is the question about profit monitor for my beef do I allow them as cost at the end of the year. Now the garage is 80-90% domestic use. If I put them in the accounts they will deduct about a euro per bullock from the bottom line. I be crying in my soup if I do not make a profit. If I do not allow me them into my accounts and make a profit the tax man will take about 50% of the euro

My point exactly in an earlier post. You put it through the farm of course.

Young95

davidk1394 wrote: »

Yes, it was done here for a number of years and worked well. The twins and triplets were on swedes from the 5/6th of January to the beginning of March. Stocking rate depended on the crop but usually 60 ewes per acre. I never bothered with strip grazing. I gave them mineral licks, straw and a lie back onto grass.

Good job and come March where they put inside and fed meal or left to lamb outside on just grass ?

davidk1394

Young95 wrote: »

Good job and come March where they put inside and fed meal or left to lamb outside on just grass ?

Brought in once they were on the point of lambing and lambed in doors. If the weather was fine, i gave the field a run of a tine harrow and put cattle on it to eat up the last few bits.

Bass Reeves

Cavanjack wrote: »

My point exactly in an earlier post. You put it through the farm of course.

But what about the scared profit monitor

Water John

Bass, I use to work where we made similar door rollers. Invoiced out for €4 a piece. The supplier charged you €30. The margin in farming compared to this, is a joke.

Bass Reeves

Water John wrote: »

Bass, I use to work where we made similar door rollers. Invoiced out for €4 a piece. The supplier charged you €30. The margin in farming compared to this, is a joke.

It a top roller that runs on a track Hillaldam Coburn was the original make but now its a spurious cannot even come across them online. 30+vat, I suppose I should not claim the vat back either

Water John

Different type. Sorry to derail.

Bass Reeves

Water John wrote: »

Different type. Sorry to derail.

TBH they are expensive enough at what was charged for them

Water John

The mark up on most parts like that in Ireland is ludicrous. Anywhere between 40 and 100% and more.
Ah if they start paying us €80 tonne to sink carbon in the ground we'll all be in the money.

Carmen Angry Advertisement

Carmen Angry Advertisement wrote: »

I know its a "how long is a piece of string?" question, but could a farm that size be profitable?? All I ever hear is how theres no money in farming.

Any farm can be profitable, how it's managed will decide that. Whether it'll make you a living or not is a different question. Personally I'd stay away from Teagasc and their advice, unless you are doing GC solely to qualify for young farmers or some other allowance.

Bass Reeves

Sometimes I wonder do lads read the original/OP's. When doing English in school the teacher would get you to underline the main points in a piece of prose.

Main points are he a teacher, the farm is sixty acres, it's in Mayo, it's a sheep farm and the OP has limited farming experience.

First thing why would you give up a teaching job to go farming fulltime on sixty acres, why would you consider dairying or tillage on sixty acres not to mind in Mayo. I know they are into punishment up there. It not known as the God bless us county(they will never win a football all Ireland) for nothing

But he is looking for advice regarding farming a farm on a part-time basis

Dinzee Conlee

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Sometimes I wonder do lads read the original/OP's. When doing English in school the teacher would get you to underline the main points in a piece of prose.

Main points are he a teacher, the farm is sixty acres, it's in Mayo, it's a sheep farm and the OP has limited farming experience.

First thing why would you give up a teaching job to go farming fulltime on sixty acres, why would you consider dairying or tillage on sixty acres not to mind in Mayo. I know they are into punishment up there. It not known as the God bless us county(they will never win a football all Ireland) for nothing

But he is looking for advice regarding farming a farm on a part-time basis

Plus, the OP indicated he has no intention of going farming for the love of it. It would be a financial decision.

IMO in these circumstances, farming it yourself is not profitable - if you work out the time put in vs the financial returns and then compare this against renting the farm out tax free, for almost zero input...

Dickie10

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Sometimes I wonder do lads read the original/OP's. When doing English in school the teacher would get you to underline the main points in a piece of prose.

Main points are he a teacher, the farm is sixty acres, it's in Mayo, it's a sheep farm and the OP has limited farming experience.

First thing why would you give up a teaching job to go farming fulltime on sixty acres, why would you consider dairying or tillage on sixty acres not to mind in Mayo. I know they are into punishment up there. It not known as the God bless us county(they will never win a football all Ireland) for nothing

But he is looking for advice regarding farming a farm on a part-time basis

very harsh , you must be a meath man too!

tabby aspreme

davidk1394 wrote: »

The initial investment for sheep is low. All you need is a good fence, decent handling facilities, a shed and a good dog. If the ground is free draining, sow a winter crop like kale or swedes. It's expensive day one but it pays for itself during the winter. Sheep usually require more handling than cattle and it's harder to put money together with sheep than cattle. I sold all the sheep recently and I am going down the dairy route for 2021

For someone to buy stock this August with €550-600 / acre to spend, would there be much difference in gross margin from buying, 4 breeding ewes to lamb in March, or a store bullock to overwinter on silage and finish off grass in summer 2021, with facilities already in place to winter cattle or sheep

JJayoo

Don't get married, have kids or build a big house and you will be sorted

tabby aspreme

JJayoo wrote: »

Don't get married, have kids or build a big house and you will be sorted

Not even to a teacher

Bass Reeves

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Plus, the OP indicated he has no intention of going farming for the love of it. It would be a financial decision.

IMO in these circumstances, farming it yourself is not profitable - if you work out the time put in vs the financial returns and then compare this against renting the farm out tax free, for almost zero input...

In area's like Mayo renting may not be an ideal option. There would not be a huge amount of dairy or tillage farmers. Most would be drystock, they have limited income from these systems. As such farmers are dependent on payments for making these farming systems profitable. Therefore rents of above 100/ acre would be the exception rather than the norm. As well OP intends to build a house on the farm so large area in forestry is not an option. However I would not rule out limited forestry on marginal land.

While some make a huge point about rental income being tax free, the tax liability on a farm can be shielded by being self employed. Normal expenditure such as car, electricity, phone etc can shield some income. Even the odd garage door roller. Long term if farm fairly profitable children working on the farm can be paid an income to put them through college. Tax free leasing income is not a huge advantage outside of dairy and tillage areas.

Bass Reeves

Dickie10 wrote: »

very harsh , you must be a meath man too!

No not a Meath man just a realistic Kerryman in exile

Bass Reeves

Bass Reeves wrote: »

In area's like Mayo renting may not be an ideal option. There would not be a huge amount of dairy or tillage farmers. Most would be drystock, they have limited income from these systems. As such farmers are dependent on payments for making these farming systems profitable. Therefore rents of above 100/ acre would be the exception rather than the norm. As well OP intends to build a house on the farm so large area in forestry is not an option. However I would not rule out limited forestry on marginal land.

While some make a huge point about rental income being tax free, the tax liability on a farm can be shielded by being self employed. Normal expenditure such as car, electricity, phone etc can shield some income. Even the odd garage door roller. Long term if farm fairly profitable children working on the farm can be paid an income to put them through college. Tax free leasing income is not a huge advantage outside of dairy and tillage areas.

I’d say rents under 100 an acre would be the exception. We had land leased out up until recently in the west at around 170 an acre for middle of the road land and we we always felt in hindsight we had let go a bit too cheap as it was a neighbour ( a sucker and sheep man no dairy around us).

Bass Reeves

Kenny Dirty Ape wrote: »

I’d say rents under 100 an acre would be the exception. We had land leased out up until recently in the west at around 170 an acre for middle of the road land and we we always felt in hindsight we had let go a bit too cheap as it was a neighbour ( a sucker and sheep man no dairy around us).

Unless he is drawing fairly substantial SFP or farmnis technically leased by a young farmers he is at nothing. Know a fairly large drystock farmer near me renting at slightly more than that near me. He is at the pin of his collar to make any margin on it

You have to remember when leasing, GLAS is capped as is ANC, KT is the same fir 50 or 500 acres. While it may be worth more for you to farm it yourself it fairly hard to make a profit if first the first 100-200euro hast to go to someone else.