Green Party wish list.

Fuascailteoir

Robson99 wrote: »

A party that want rural ireland to operate with a couple of cars between them and to bring back wolves to roam the countryside instead of cattle cannot be taken seriously.
Hopefully Micheal and Leo will tell Ryan to stand in the corner for the next few years and to keep his mouth shut

There needs to be a greater emphasis on bears. Never see them mentioned in the programme for government. I feel sorry about their exclusion

Thelonious Monk

Robson99 wrote: »

A party that want rural ireland to operate with a couple of cars between them and to bring back wolves to roam the countryside instead of cattle cannot be taken seriously.
Hopefully Micheal and Leo will tell Ryan to stand in the corner for the next few years and to keep his mouth shut

You clearly know nothing about their policies and haven’t read their part of the pfg. Lots of good stuff in there for the whole country. I mean rural Ireland have always said whatever party is in power is letting them down can they really be any worse for you?

Edgware

Fuascailteoir wrote: »

There needs to be a greater emphasis on bears. Never see them mentioned in the programme for government. I feel sorry about their exclusion

And even if mentioned it's all about polar bears.
Grizzlies are completely discriminated against.
It's a disgrace Joe

Shefwedfan

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Rubbish. The Eamon Ryan changed more than just the car tax. Cars were out in emissions bands. This not just effected there car tax but there VRT rate as well. Car manufacturers also reengineered there engines to lower there emissions to achieve these bands. The changing of these emissions made it uneconomical to buy large petrol cars. Your hypothesis about people changing for a 100 euro savings is rubbish.

For the first 2-3 years after the change new car numbers actually fell as the country went into recession. But as the car tax difference widened and VRT changes narrowed the price gab even moderate mileages made petrol uneconomical on midsized and large cars especially when fuel costs were factored in

That was new car

I seen people swap a 2007 for a 2008, exact same car but they would save maybe 100-200 euro per year in tax. The upgrade cost thousands....that went on everywhere

Do you not think car manufacturers making car cleaner is a good thing?

People are buying large petrol today, I have a SUV with a strapping big 2.2ltr petrol engine in it....

New car sales fell because the economy was crippled. Not because of the change in tax. Dealer still brought in petrol but soon stopped as nobody would buy, 50 quid cheaper in tax v a cheaper up front petrol always meant the diesel won. You had VW and BMW etc stopped selling petrol because of the stupidity.

None of this was down to the Greens, how could you predict that? Even today you have people saying 20-50km is a long commute. You would be laughed out of it outside Ireland if you said that.

People need to take some responsibility, I did, I bought diesels when I didn’t need to. I seen the light but look at today and the UK getting rid of it diesel problem by dumping it here, laughing at us

Shefwedfan

Robson99 wrote: »

A party that want rural ireland to operate with a couple of cars between them and to bring back wolves to roam the countryside instead of cattle cannot be taken seriously.
Hopefully Micheal and Leo will tell Ryan to stand in the corner for the next few years and to keep his mouth shut

I think you need to do a bit of investigation

unhappys10

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think you need to do a bit of investigation

Do some yourself, you haven't a clue.

Shefwedfan

unhappys10 wrote: »

Do some yourself, you haven't a clue.

You still looking for them to give out free diesels? :-)

Haven’t a clue is best description alright....still be complaining in 20 years about some political party for your own mistakes, take some responsibility

unhappys10

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You still looking for them to give out free diesels? :-)

Haven’t a clue is best description alright....still be complaining in 20 years about some political party for your own mistakes, take some responsibility

Show me where I mentioned free diesels ffs enjoy the next few years, hope you're fleeced in tax.

Rows Grower

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I buy new cars all the time, I bought new diesel. I didn’t say I wasn’t part of the stupidity did I?

Just saying other people need to stop blaming political parties for their own stupidity

Interesting.

Rows Grower

Shefwedfan wrote: »

That was new car

I seen people swap a 2007 for a 2008, exact same car but they would save maybe 100-200 euro per year in tax. The upgrade cost thousands....that went on everywhere

Do you not think car manufacturers making car cleaner is a good thing?

People are buying large petrol today, I have a SUV with a strapping big 2.2ltr petrol engine in it....

New car sales fell because the economy was crippled. Not because of the change in tax. Dealer still brought in petrol but soon stopped as nobody would buy, 50 quid cheaper in tax v a cheaper up front petrol always meant the diesel won. You had VW and BMW etc stopped selling petrol because of the stupidity.

None of this was down to the Greens, how could you predict that? Even today you have people saying 20-50km is a long commute. You would be laughed out of it outside Ireland if you said that.

People need to take some responsibility, I did, I bought diesels when I didn’t need to. I seen the light but look at today and the UK getting rid of it diesel problem by dumping it here, laughing at us

A few hours later.

Rows Grower

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think you need to do a bit of investigation

And just to top it off.

Shefwedfan

Rows Grower wrote: »

Interesting.

Imagine, people buy new cars more than once a lifetime

Having a job, earning money etc allows people to do that

Shefwedfan

unhappys10 wrote: »

Show me where I mentioned free diesels ffs enjoy the next few years, hope you're fleeced in tax.

Don’t worry I will be ok.... thanks for asking.

Rows Grower

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Imagine, people buy new cars More than once a lifetime

Fair play to ya, it's great to see people doing so well.

Just be careful where you park all those brand new petrol and diesel cars you just bought.

It's supposed to be rough enough weather next week and you wouldn't want that windmill you have on your ridge tiles to fall and bounce off your quarter of an acre of solar panels on your roof and onto the new diesel car and petrol SUV.

Stay safe.

Shefwedfan

Rows Grower wrote: »

Fair play to ya, it's great to see people doing so well.

Just be careful where you park all those brand new petrol and diesel cars you just bought.

It's supposed to be rough enough weather next week and you wouldn't want that windmill you have on your ridge tiles to fall and bounce off your quarter of an acre of solar panels on your roof and onto the new diesel car and petrol SUV.

Stay safe.

Ahh jealousy!!!!!

Don’t worry, I pay expensive professionals to install so I don’t have to worry about poor workmanship

I sold the diesel and got a brand new electric last year :-)

KyussB

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You clearly know nothing about their policies and haven’t read their part of the pfg. Lots of good stuff in there for the whole country. I mean rural Ireland have always said whatever party is in power is letting them down can they really be any worse for you?

Ah come on the programme is an insult to current and upcoming generations - leaving them fucked on housing, and hiking regressive taxes on them while pledging austerity in a bit more than a couple of years...

Don't defend the Greens when what they've enabled is just more of the same. Push for a new/separate party that actually represents green policies - instead of representing nothing more than the co-opting of the green vote...

combat14

lads this 205 billion plus the extra 30 billion that we are now borrowing all has to be paid back ........

this means more taxes, pay cuts, cuts to public services, social welfare at some point in time

we have been extremely lucky the last few years with very favourable economic tail winds and bumper corporation tax yields..... which have all been squandered ... this is not going to continue indefinitely .. there are also changes to international tax arrangements in the pipeline and Ireland will be adversely affected by that...

we have also been extremely lucky with historically low interest rates so far and the ability to refinance our current loans at much lower rates .. this will only continue for the next four years or so ...

there is not a hope in hell that the green wipe out rural ireland policies will be implemented .. the country will have far more pressing issues to deal with over the next couple of years

any additional cuts to services/ welfare payments or tax rise pain inflicted on irish voters will be blamed primarily on the green party when the time comes to vote again...

ExMachina1000

combat14 wrote: »

lads this 205 billion plus the extra 30 billion that we are now borrowing all has to be paid back ........

this means more taxes, pay cuts, cuts to public services, social welfare at some point in time

we have been extremely lucky the last few years with very favourable economic tail winds and bumper corporation tax yields..... which have all been squandered ... this is not going to continue indefinitely .. there are also changes to international tax arrangements in the pipeline and Ireland will be adversely affected by that...

there is not a hope in hell that the green wipe out rural ireland policies will be implemented .. the country will have far more pressing issues to deal with over the next couple of years

any additional cuts to services/ welfare payments or tax rise pain inflicted on irish voters will be blamed primarily on the green party when the time comes to vote again...

Per capita Ireland is the 3rd most indebted nation on the planet

Tell me how

combat14 wrote: »

lads this 205 billion plus the extra 30 billion that we are now borrowing all has to be paid back ........

this means more taxes, pay cuts, cuts to public services, social welfare at some point in time

we have been extremely lucky the last few years with very favourable economic tail winds and bumper corporation tax yields..... which have all been squandered ... this is not going to continue indefinitely .. there are also changes to international tax arrangements in the pipeline and Ireland will be adversely affected by that...

we have also been extremely lucky with historically low interest rates so far and the ability to refinance our current loans at much lower rates .. this will only continue for the next four years or so ...

there is not a hope in hell that the green wipe out rural ireland policies will be implemented .. the country will have far more pressing issues to deal with over the next couple of years

any additional cuts to services/ welfare payments or tax rise pain inflicted on irish voters will be blamed primarily on the green party when the time comes to vote again...

And that's almost entirely down to people giving FF/FG a pass on any obligation to provide solutions which would allow us to meet the targets we signed up to in the Paris Agreement.

It's an ignorance of either the need for action, or how any government should be putting the necessary effort in to it.

Tea drinker

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Per capita Ireland is the 3rd most indebted nation on the planet

As previously alluded to when the tide of low interest goes out we'll see what the real impact of having no savings is.
The Covid situation has accelerated the banking collapse stateside and there could be a tsunami coming over the Atlantic in the next year.
We need to get ahead of that with the bond auctions while conditions are extremely favourable.

efanton

Tell me how wrote: »

And that's almost entirely down to people giving FF/FG a pass on any obligation to provide solutions which would allow us to meet the targets we signed up to in the Paris Agreement.

It's an ignorance of either the need for action, or how any government should be putting the necessary effort in to it.

Hold on there, you are not getting away with that nonsense.

The Green negotiated a deal, that is supposed to lay out the commitments of the new government.

The only people that could be accused of giving FF/FG a pass on any obligations are the Greens.

If the deal signed was not acceptable to the Greens then they should have rejected it, or insisted extra items be written into that agreement.

the one thing the Greens will not get away with now is that someone else is to blame if things go horrible wrong. It is they that created the program for government and agreed that it was the correct set of policies for the next 5 years.

Tell me how

efanton wrote: »

Hold on there, you are not getting away with that nonsense.

The Green negotiated a deal, that is supposed to lay out the commitments of the new government.

The only people that could be accused of giving FF/FG a pass on any obligations are the Greens.

If the deal signed was not acceptable to the Greens then they should have rejected it, or insisted extra items be written into that agreement.

the one thing the Greens will not get away with now is that someone else is to blame if things go horrible wrong. It is they that created the program for government and agreed that it was the correct set of policies for the next 5 years.

How is it nonsense?

The Paris Agreement was signed up to in 2018 at which time Ireland had a FG led FF supported government. How did they, at that time, expect to achieve the targets which they were committing us to?
Or, are you saying that they have no responsibility to offer solutions?

But that the Greens should have either convinced them entirely how to do so, or backed off? For what? So that people could demean them entirely for having no interest in actual government? But that now the responsibility for Irelands commitment to the Greens is on their shoulders? Really? I mean, really really?

Or are you saying that FG signing that agreement was sufficient effort in protecting the planet? Please enlighten me.

efanton

Tell me how wrote: »

How is it nonsense?

The Paris Agreement was signed up to in 2018 at which time Ireland had a FG led FF supported government. How did they, at that time, expect to achieve the targets which they were committing us to?
Or, are you saying that they have no responsibility to offer solutions?

But that the Greens should have either convinced them entirely how to do so, or backed off? For what? So that people could demean them entirely for having no interest in actual government? But that now the responsibility for Irelands commitment to the Greens is on their shoulders? Really? I mean, really really?

Or are you saying that FG signing that agreement was sufficient effort in protecting the planet? Please enlighten me.

did the Greens put FG/FF back in government?

Have FG ever come even close to meeting their targets, in fact have they ever taken those targets seriously?



The greens were sat at a table agreeing a deal that both FF and FG needed to get back into government. If the Greens said no then FG simply could not get into government, its that simple.

Why didnt the Greens simply say, well lads if you want us to agree this program for government we need a written commitment to borrow 5 billion (for instance) that we will determine how it should be spent on green projects. No, they simply allowed FF and FG to continue as normal, no solid commitments, no guarantees, and FF/FG have now every excuse to say well we would have liked to have done things but we simply cant afford them because of the Covid debt. The only people that have given FF and FG a free pass is the Green party because they negotiated a deal that is completely worthless to them and the country.

Tell me how

^^^^^
Still no analysis of FF/FG policy or responsibility.

But the only people giving them a pass are the Greens......

Jog on.

KyussB

combat14 wrote: »

lads this 205 billion plus the extra 30 billion that we are now borrowing all has to be paid back ........

this means more taxes, pay cuts, cuts to public services, social welfare at some point in time

we have been extremely lucky the last few years with very favourable economic tail winds and bumper corporation tax yields..... which have all been squandered ... this is not going to continue indefinitely .. there are also changes to international tax arrangements in the pipeline and Ireland will be adversely affected by that...

we have also been extremely lucky with historically low interest rates so far and the ability to refinance our current loans at much lower rates .. this will only continue for the next four years or so ...

there is not a hope in hell that the green wipe out rural ireland policies will be implemented .. the country will have far more pressing issues to deal with over the next couple of years

any additional cuts to services/ welfare payments or tax rise pain inflicted on irish voters will be blamed primarily on the green party when the time comes to vote again...

Government finances do not work like household finances...The stock of government debt, historically, in every country on the planet almost - is not paid down, it is rolled-over forever. Surpluses are an extremely rare thing. This is the normal state of affairs, in economies the world over.

The ECB is not raising interest rates anytime in the coming years (and this indirectly means, interest rates on bonds will remain low) - because if the ECB did, it would collapse the Eurozone.

The future is more economic recession, and achingly slow recovery due to austerity (the latter thanks to the Greens) - in these economic conditions, there is zero chance of the ECB raising interest rates.

efanton

KyussB wrote: »

Government finances do not work like household finances...The stock of government debt, historically, in every country on the planet almost - is not paid down, it is rolled-over forever. Surpluses are an extremely rare thing. This is the normal state of affairs, in economies the world over.

The ECB is not raising interest rates anytime in the coming years (and this indirectly means, interest rates on bonds will remain low) - because if the ECB did, it would collapse the Eurozone.

The future is more economic recession, and achingly slow recovery due to austerity (the latter thanks to the Greens) - in these economic conditions, there is zero chance of the ECB raising interest rates.

You are right, its called capital expenditure.

But there is a limit to what any EU government is allowed to borrow.

We are near that limit already thanks to FF bailing out the banks. Add to that the debts we have and will continue to build due to Covid, the promised housing plan, and the reality is there will not be the opportunity to borrow much more.

As you correctly point out it is likely we will be going into a significant economic recession which will make government borrowing even more difficult. The money borrowed doesn't come out of thin air, it comes from banks and financial institutions that will not want to lend to a government that has already borrowed too much.

I suppose the Green could run a few flag days to generate funds.:rolleyes:

Why didn't the Green think of this while negotiating a program for government. Where is the clause in the deal that says we are going to borrow X amount and ring-fence that money for carbon reduction projects?

KyussB

efanton wrote: »

You are right, its called capital expenditure.

But there is a limit to what any EU government is allowed to borrow.

We are near that limit already thanks to FF bailing out the banks. Add to that the debts we have and will continue to build due to Covid, the promised housing plan, and the reality is there will not be the opportunity to borrow much more.

As you correctly point out it is likely we will be going into a significant economic recession which will make government borrowing even more difficult. The money borrowed doesn't come out of thin air, it comes from banks and financial institutions that will not want to lend to a government that has already borrowed too much.

I suppose the Green could run a few flag days to generate funds.:rolleyes:

Why didn't the Green think of this while negotiating a program for government. Where is the clause in the deal that says we are going to borrow X amount and ring-fence that money for carbon reduction projects?

It's not specific to capital expenditure, that is again treating government finances like business finances - when government finances are nothing like household/business finances.

There are no EU restrictions on borrowing during the pandemic. Those rules are suspended. We should be borrowing a gigantic pot of money, at low interest rates, right now - to use for years to come.

I think you need to read up on where money comes from a bit more...as long as the ECB have QE and negative interest rates - which will not go away at any time during a lasting recession - then there is no problem indirectly sourcing money. It's not 2007/8 anymore.

The Green's are not a real green party - that's why they agreed to austerity in advance...

efanton

KyussB wrote: »

It's not specific to capital expenditure, that is again treating government finances like business finances - when government finances are nothing like household/business finances.

There are no EU restrictions on borrowing during the pandemic. Those rules are suspended. We should be borrowing a gigantic pot of money, at low interest rates, right now - to use for years to come.

I think you need to read up on where money comes from a bit more...as long as the ECB have QE and negative interest rates - which will not go away at any time during a lasting recession - then there is no problem indirectly sourcing money. It's not 2007/8 anymore.

The Green's are not a real green party - that's why they agreed to austerity in advance...

I think you need to take a reality pill.

Money comes from somewhere. To borrow it you must be able to repay it and show you can repay it. There are EU rules on how much this country an borrow.

I would love nothing more than this country borrowing a sufficient amount to fix our significant problems. The reality is that it simply would not be possible.
We dont make the rules, banks and financial institutions make the rules and the EU compounds that be setting borrowing limits.

Bass Reeves

efanton wrote: »

I think you need to take a reality pill.

Money comes from somewhere. To borrow it you must be able to repay it and show you can repay it. There are EU rules on how much this country an borrow.

I would love nothing more than this country borrowing a sufficient amount to fix our significant problems. The reality is that it simply would not be possible.
We dont make the rules, banks and financial institutions make the rules and the EU compounds that be setting borrowing limits.

Sorry efanton I have been here before with his magic money idea. He considers that we can borrow unlimited. He even have this idea that we could borrow enough at negative interest rates and use it to solve any economic woe. Do the sums on borrowing at a negative interest rate of 0.5%( and we cannot borrow at that) to use 20 billion a year ie the 20 billion is the negative interest on the money. I think it about 2 trillion.

It called Magic Money

combat14

KyussB wrote: »

Government finances do not work like household finances...The stock of government debt, historically, in every country on the planet almost - is not paid down, it is rolled-over forever. Surpluses are an extremely rare thing. This is the normal state of affairs, in economies the world over.

The ECB is not raising interest rates anytime in the coming years (and this indirectly means, interest rates on bonds will remain low) - because if the ECB did, it would collapse the Eurozone.

The future is more economic recession, and achingly slow recovery due to austerity (the latter thanks to the Greens) - in these economic conditions, there is zero chance of the ECB raising interest rates.

we still have to service the debt I.e. at a minimum repay the billions owed in interest each year let alone the principal

the national debt back in 2008 was approx 45 billion it has now ballooned to approx 205-235 billion factoring into the current covid 19 hit

even with low interest rates the interest repayments on 230 billion of debt is not insignificant

we have only barely got rid of the IMF and they are still keeping oversight of our budgets.......

there are approx. 2 million tax payers in the country divide 205 billion by the number of workers and we currently owe €102,500 plus interest for every worker in the country

I know it is great to borrow a load of money at 0% interest but we still have to pay it back .....