No more cash refunds, Goverment wants to forse a voucher on you.

paddy19

Heather Humphreys is proposing a new law forcing consumers to accept vouchers instead of cash refunds (Pat Kenny this morning).

7 EU countries have passed local laws which are in contravention of the EU261 requirement for cash refunds.

It shouldn't happen since EU261 has direct provision.

It could happen here if we ever get a government!

I'd suggest submitting a claim into the small claims court before the government take away you right to a cash refund.

Suggest you call/email your local TD and ask them why this government expects you to subsidise Michael O'Leary.

TDs email addresses can be found

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/members/

Format is first name.last @oireachtas.ie
leo.varadkar@oireachtas.ie

heather.humpreys@dbei.ie for her ministerial office.

Process for getting your refund: Before they change the rules!

Small Claims Court costs €25, fast. Airline response within 15 calendar days.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058071799

Commission for Aviation Regulation. Free.
"at present so it may be several weeks before we can issue a comprehensive response to your complaint. "
https://secure.aviationreg.ie/eseries/uiid480261345/car450.xsp;jsessionid=86BABC6C7D85BB38FFE4A67D8D3C6682.node1

Chargeback..... Not looking good dependent on bank and credit card provider.

Caranica

That's her constituency office. Your issue is with her ministerial decision so heather.humpreys@dbei.ie will leave her constituency email for constituents who need help during the pandemic.

ted1

I didn’t think EU261 applied as it’s out if the airlines hand.

dennyk

ted1 wrote: »

I didn’t think EU261 applied as it’s out if the airlines hand.

No extra compensation is due because the cancellations were due to circumstances clearly beyond the airlines' control, but a full cash refund of the ticket price still must be offered by the airlines when a flight is cancelled.

kleefarr

:mad: Things like this really get me riled. Imagine if it was the other way around and someone owed them money. Always the same ****e.

I have four flights booked in June with Ryanair, nothing from them yet.
Will be bubbling away ready to explode when an email arrives offering a voucher replacement. :mad:

Rodney Bathgate

I think the issue here is that issuing refunds will bankrupt many airlines.

amdublin

You can't get blood from a stone.

You could try. Bankrupt the airlines. Stand in line with all the other creditors.

kleefarr

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

I think the issue here is that issuing refunds will bankrupt many airlines.

So what have they done with money that isn't actually theirs? Contract not completed.

Grr

Rodney Bathgate

kleefarr wrote: »

So what have they done with money that isn't actually theirs? Contract not completed.

Grr

Difficult to complete a contract when countries are banning inbound flights etc.

Many of the airlines costs still need to be paid even if no flights.

titan18

Ya, a lot of them were using that money for share buybacks so feck them. I'd accept a voucher tbh but thats cos I'm still employed but harsh for those who've lost their job to be given a voucher as they might be very unlikely to be able to use it.

Phoebas

paddy19 wrote: »

Heather Humphreys is proposing a new law ...

It might be helpful if you could link to the detail of what she is proposing, so we can decide if we're against it or not.

kleefarr

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Difficult to complete a contract when countries are banning inbound flights etc.

Many of the airlines costs still need to be paid even if no flights.

Joe Bloggs get shafted again.

ted1

kleefarr wrote: »

:mad: Things like this really get me riled. Imagine if it was the other way around and someone owed them money. Always the same ****e.

I have four flights booked in June with Ryanair, nothing from them yet.
Will be bubbling away ready to explode when an email arrives offering a voucher replacement. :mad:

They carry about 10M passengers a month, have patience lots of people to process

kravmaga

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

I think the issue here is that issuing refunds will bankrupt many airlines.

Agreed. Airlines are very vulnerable at the moment.

Virgin Austrialia have just gone into administration and 4 of Norwegian Airlines crew subsidiaries have filed for bankruptcy..

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-52363428

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/four-of-norwegians-crew-subsidiaries-file-for-bankruptcy/137975.article

paddy19

ted1 wrote: »

I didn’t think EU261 applied as it’s out if the airlines hand.

EU261 applies, there is a lot of confusion about the difference between compensation and a refund.

Compensation can be refused because of extraordinary circumstances.

Cash refunds within 7 days are always required when the airline does not fly for any reason.

paddy19

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

I think the issue here is that issuing refunds will bankrupt many airlines.

It's not up to random passengers to act as a bailout fund for airlines by providing an interest loan where keep your money if you don't follow their crappy conditions.

Passengers bought tickets not a no upside share in the company.

That's what shareholders, hedge funds, bankers and governments do.

By the way neither Ryanair of Aer Lingus are going bankrupt.

paddy19

amdublin wrote: »

You can't get blood from a stone.

You could try. Bankrupt the airlines. Stand in line with all the other creditors.

So you think I should give Michael O'Leary and interest free loan?
Many airlines have very hefty cash balances.

Chargeback would apply via your credit card.

If I wanted some of the action I would have bought shares.

kleefarr

ted1 wrote: »

They carry about 10M passengers a month, have patience lots of people to process

I know lots of people will be affected and I am just as concerned for them Always the general public that get the brunt.

paddy19

Phoebas wrote: »

It might be helpful if you could link to the detail of what she is proposing, so we can decide if we're against it or not.

Take a listen to Pat Kenny this morning.

https://www.newstalk.com/shows/pat-kenny-show-234857

Right at the very end:

"but whether it's a cash refund or through vouchers I'm looking at that at the minute"

Since we already have a cash refund she's obviously propsoing vouchers.

My interpretation is the immediate cash refund goes and you give Michael O'Leary and Willie Walsh an interest free loan.

I must try that with my bank.
Bank gives me a loan subject to my terms and conditions
and if the bank does not comply after 12 months,
I get to keep the banks money.

Jays that's some deal.

Thingymebob

Too often if you want to rebook your flights, the cost of the flights through the ‘flight change’ portal are higher than making an outright new booking, so the airlines try to have their cake and eat it too. It makes a mockery of your can rebook but must pay a rebooking fee plus the fare difference’ when they’re deliberately inflating or creating a fare difference.

I’d consider accepting a government backed voucher, valid for a year but redeemable for a cash refund at the end of the 12 months with the provision that the flights cannot be more expensive than a standard booking. I understand their cash flow has dried up but equally why should I be hammered twice, both with a voucher then to be charged a penalty fir the flights.

paddy19

ted1 wrote: »

They carry about 10M passengers a month, have patience lots of people to process

They could process all the requested refunds in 72 hours if they wanted to.

The car hire companies can do it in 24 hours.

They have massive computing power that is basically sitting idle at present.
here is the question:

If the regulator said they had to give every passenger waiting for a refund would get a €100 a day compensation.
How long would it take to clear the backlog?

It's not Covid, remote working, computer power or software engineers that are stopping the airlines processing refunds, they want to hold on to your money in the hope that they hustle a deal out of the EU to give passenger crappy vouchers.

killbillvol2

Just what we needed. Another thread on this.

JTMan

paddy19 wrote: »

I'd suggest submitting a claim into the small claims court before the government take away you right to a cash refund.

Thanks for the tips Paddy.

I will be contacting the minster, it is outrageous that he is suggesting that we subsidise a giant company like IAG who own Aer Lingus, while we suffer reduced income. :mad::mad::mad:

If one puts in a claim now with the small claims court, does the law as at today apply? i.e. if the minster does change the law, it does not retrospectively apply to your claim?

How long do small claims cases take?

I am not sure if I am best waiting for the chargeback process to occur or to jump to the small claims process.

Mrcaramelchoc

Why should anyone go to the scc and have to pay 25 euro.ok if your flights cosy 2 or 3 Grand fair enough but mine only cost 150 euro.
I want my money back without paying out anyone OR i would accept a 3 or 5 year voucher.1year is ****e.

paddy19

Mrcaramelchoc wrote: »

Why should anyone go to the scc and have to pay 25 euro.ok if your flights cosy 2 or 3 Grand fair enough but mine only cost 150 euro.
I want my money back without paying out anyone OR i would accept a 3 or 5 year voucher.1year is ****e.

Could try the regulator.
The site is obviously written by lawyers.
But the process is fairly user friendly.

Basically same type of process as SCC but free.
They send your claim to the airline and threaten them if they don't pay up.
Complete a menu driven process and get a ref number.

No idea what sort of back log they have but can't hurt.

https://secure.aviationreg.ie/eseries/uiid358380352/car450.xsp;jsessionid=72C16D235CF79B42D44D3B4D2C70DA94.node1

Caranica

paddy19 wrote: »

Could try the regulator.
The site is obviously written by lawyers.
But the process is fairly user friendly.

Basically same type of process as SCC but free.
They send your claim to the airline and threaten them if they don't pay up.
Complete a menu driven process and get a ref number.

No idea what sort of back log they have but can't hurt.

https://secure.aviationreg.ie/eseries/uiid358380352/car450.xsp;jsessionid=72C16D235CF79B42D44D3B4D2C70DA94.node1

Need to wait 4-6 weeks after application for refund and then decision time is around 30 days. I started the process last night as it's 6 weeks tomorrow

Lex Luthor

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Just what we needed. Another thread on this.

needs to be discussed, they closed the other one, fair play Paddy19 for keeping up the momentum

I'm not in the realm yet of having my flight cancelled but its coming shortly and the detail of info here from everyone affected has been great

killbillvol2

Lex Luthor wrote: »

needs to be discussed, they closed the other one, fair play Paddy19 for keeping up the momentum

I'm not in the realm yet of having my flight cancelled but its coming shortly and the detail of info here from everyone affected has been great

There are FIVE threads on the topic started by the same poster.

Lex Luthor

killbillvol2 wrote: »

There are FIVE threads on the topic started by the same poster.

there's a lot of replies coming in, so people are obviously interested in discussing the topic

This is a poll anyway

Fann Linn

killbillvol2 wrote: »

There are SEVEN threads on the topic started by the same poster.

Plenty of people getting stung, plus it's topical.

maestroamado

paddy19 wrote: »

Heather Humphreys is proposing a new law forcing consumers to accept vouchers instead of cash refunds (Pat Kenny this morning).

7 EU countries have passed local laws which are in contravention of the EU261 requirement for cash refunds.

It shouldn't happen since EU261 has direct provision.

It could happen here if we ever get a government!

I'd suggest submitting a claim into the small claims court before the government take away you right to a cash refund.

Suggest you call/email your local TD and ask them why this government expects you to subsidise Michael O'Leary.

TDs email addresses can be found

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/members/

Format is first name.last @oireachtas.ie
leo.varadkar@oireachtas.ie

heather.humpreys@dbei.ie for her ministerial office.

Process for getting your refund: Before they change the rules!

Small Claims Court costs €25, fast. Airline response within 15 calendar days.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058071799

Commission for Aviation Regulation. Free.
"at present so it may be several weeks before we can issue a comprehensive response to your complaint. "
https://secure.aviationreg.ie/eseries/uiid480261345/car450.xsp;jsessionid=86BABC6C7D85BB38FFE4A67D8D3C6682.node1

Chargeback..... Not looking good dependent on bank and credit card provider.

Paddy, you must have quite a bit invested as you seem to think we can change things.
For me the principle reason we were not in on this first batch in change of law (though it was mentioned) is two of the Airlines Irish and especially Ryanair, so many bookings low cost flights voucher easy option.
In recent days the policy of EasyJet have changed to voucher.


I would not bother going to claims court as you just be adding €25 to cost of flight.
I heard someone say we not need attend claims court which is correct, we can send our Lawyer and that likely to cost another €25.

ted1

Fann Linn wrote: »

Plenty of people getting stung, plus it's topical.

Define Stung

paddy19

maestroamado wrote: »

Paddy, you must have quite a bit invested as you seem to think we can change things.

I heard someone say we not need attend claims court which is correct, we can send our Lawyer and that likely to cost another €25.

We can try to stop things changing for the worse!

You don't need to hire a lawyer.
The airlines normally pay up because they know they will loose and they as registered companies have to hire a lawyer.

If you don't want to use the SCC you can try the regulator.

That's cost and lawyer free:)

https://secure.aviationreg.ie/eseries/uiid480261345/car450.xsp;jsessionid=86BABC6C7D85BB38FFE4A67D8D3C6682.node1

paddy19

ted1 wrote: »

Define Stung

Forced to give an interest free loan to an airline and you loose your money if you don't comply with their crappy terms and conditions.

Seems like a right sting to me!

maestroamado

paddy19 wrote: »

We can try to stop things changing for the worse!

You don't need to hire a lawyer.
The airlines normally pay up because they know they will loose and they as registered companies have to hire a lawyer.

If you don't want to use the SCC you can try the regulator.

That's cost and lawyer free:)

https://secure.aviationreg.ie/eseries/uiid480261345/car450.xsp;jsessionid=86BABC6C7D85BB38FFE4A67D8D3C6682.node1

I read elsewhere that attendance in SCC not necessary.
We need to attend in person (time is money) otherwise Lawyer.
Add €25 fee its a no brainer unless at least €500.
A lot of Ryanair bookings under this.
This ia money for us individually but game for them and they better
at strategy than us..
This is what i see, i also have problem but waiting...

maestroamado

I read elsewhere that attendance in SCC not necessary.
We need to attend in person (time is money) otherwise Lawyer.
Add €25 fee its a no brainer unless at least €500.
A lot of Ryanair bookings under this.
This ia money for us individually but game for them and they better
at strategy than us..
This is what i see, i also have problem but waiting...

They are talking of moving the goalposts, the regulator will adjust as required.
As i said a game like poker...

puppydogeyes

When did people start finding the option to accept voucher ect. How long before your flight due to take place. I'm due to fly 23 May bit nothin for now except option to change names on flights. I fear if I accept voucher and then airline disappears down the line then we be well sorry

paddy19

kravmaga wrote: »

Agreed. Airlines are very vulnerable at the moment.

Virgin Austrialia have just gone into administration and 4 of Norwegian Airlines crew subsidiaries have filed for bankruptcy..

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-52363428

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/four-of-norwegians-crew-subsidiaries-file-for-bankruptcy/137975.article

Neither Ryanair or Aer Lingus are going bankrupt.

paddy19

maestroamado wrote: »

I read elsewhere that attendance in SCC not necessary.
We need to attend in person (time is money) otherwise Lawyer.
Add €25 fee its a no brainer unless at least €500.
A lot of Ryanair bookings under this.
This ia money for us individually but game for them and they better
at strategy than us..
This is what i see, i also have problem but waiting...

They are talking of moving the goalposts, the regulator will adjust as required.
As i said a game like poker...

You don't have to attend the SCC or hire a lawyer.
The other free option is CAR.

https://www.flightrights.ie/home/complaint-procedure.452.html

maestroamado

paddy19 wrote: »

You don't have to attend the SCC or hire a lawyer.
The other free option is CAR.

https://secure.aviationreg.ie/eseries/uiid480261345/car450.xsp;jsessionid=86BABC6C7D85BB38FFE4A67D8D3C6682.node1

Can you absolutely confirm no attendance at SCC.
I am aware of a case where the Judge threw out a case for non attendance.
I would appreciate such info.


I am on your side but i have not the same faith as you.
BTW i was mistaken earlier when i said Easyjet were just offering voucher.
There is the option to change flight free or voucher, no mention of refund.


Good luck,keep us posted...



Is this incorrect?

You are here: Home > Justice > Civil law > Small claims and a court hearing
Small claims and a court hearing

Introduction
Preparing for court
The court hearing
Further information

Introduction

If your small claims procedure case could not be resolved and has been referred for a hearing in the District Court, you will receive a letter from the District Court office telling you the date and time of the court hearing and the location of the court itself. The case will be heard in public as part of a normal sitting of the District Court.

If you have any difficulty with attending court on the date set for the hearing, notify the District Court office and the respondent immediately. You may ask to have the date adjourned, or put back, to another date. Only the judge can make this order and you will need a very good reason for not being able to attend or go ahead with the case on that date. If you cannot attend yourself, you can send a representative to make the request to the court on your behalf.

I'm not affected by this, but I feel that if a voucher is offered, it should have to carry the recent rules brought in in relation vouchers. Specifically; it should be valid for a minimum of 5 years.

I also feel that vouchers are a reasonable offer, considering the hardship airlines, travel agents, etc. are going to face, with many in serious trouble.

joe_99

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not affected by this, but I feel that if a voucher is offered, it should have to carry the recent rules brought in in relation vouchers. Specifically; it should be valid for a minimum of 5 years.

I also feel that vouchers are a reasonable offer, considering the hardship airlines, travel agents, etc. are going to face, with many in serious trouble.

The one year limit is a huge issue for me. Travel unlikely to get back to normal until well into 2021

Caranica

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not affected by this, but I feel that if a voucher is offered, it should have to carry the recent rules brought in in relation vouchers. Specifically; it should be valid for a minimum of 5 years.

I also feel that vouchers are a reasonable offer, considering the hardship airlines, travel agents, etc. are going to face, with many in serious trouble.

Those regulations are for gift vouchers. These are not gift vouchers.

Mrcaramelchoc

paddy19 wrote: »

Could try the regulator.
The site is obviously written by lawyers.
But the process is fairly user friendly.

Basically same type of process as SCC but free.
They send your claim to the airline and threaten them if they don't pay up.
Complete a menu driven process and get a ref number.

No idea what sort of back log they have but can't hurt.

https://secure.aviationreg.ie/eseries/uiid358380352/car450.xsp;jsessionid=72C16D235CF79B42D44D3B4D2C70DA94.node1

That link is looking for a user name and password?

ted1

paddy19 wrote: »

Neither Ryanair or Aer Lingus are going bankrupt.

Says you...a couple of billion euro worth of planes that need to be paid for.

They have 12 months worth of reserves after that they are gone.
If in a few months less people fly then they are in big trouble

ted1

paddy19 wrote: »

Forced to give an interest free loan to an airline and you loose your money if you don't comply with their crappy terms and conditions.

Seems like a right sting to me!

Forget about an “interest free loan” interest is basically nil at the moment. And their voucher appears as a liability on their balance sheets. So it’s not good for them.

I’d hazard a guess and say most people who accept the voucher will gladly use it with a few months.

Lex Luthor

joe_99 wrote: »

The one year limit is a huge issue for me. Travel unlikely to get back to normal until well into 2021

I agree, min 3yrs but should be 5

TheCitizen

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

I think the issue here is that issuing refunds will bankrupt many airlines.

Yes we’ve heard that before so punters are being asked to subsidise them. Some will go under anyway, what happens then

Mrcaramelchoc

ted1 wrote: »

Says you...a couple of billion euro worth of planes that need to be paid for.

They have 12 months worth of reserves after that they are gone.
If in a few months less people fly then they are in big trouble

Im in tears after reading that anyway i don't know about the rest of you.

You have my money and i didn't get the service i paid for.refund please.

paddy19

ted1 wrote: »

Says you...a couple of billion euro worth of planes that need to be paid for.

They have 12 months worth of reserves after that they are gone.
If in a few months less people fly then they are in big trouble

Most companies would be ecstatic to have 12 months reserves!

Of course there are no guarantees but I think you will agree that Ryanair and Aer Lingus are way down on the list of potential airline bankruptcies.

This bankruopcy scare is been used by the airlines to extract money from the governments and the EU. It worked brilliantly in the US.

"The airline bailouts have officially begun. US Treasury handed out $2.9 billion today. More going out soon Congress allotted ~$50bn for airlines"

Lex Luthor

paddy19 wrote: »

Most companies would be ecstatic to have 12 months reserves!

Of course there are no guarantees but I think you will agree that Ryanair and Aer Lingus are way down on the list of potential airline bankruptcies.

This bankruopcy scare is been used by the airlines to extract money from the governments and the EU. It worked brilliantly in the US.

"The airline bailouts have officially begun. US Treasury handed out $2.9 billion today. More going out soon Congress allotted ~$50bn for airlines"

this is after the US airlines have purchased back $45bn worth of stock over the last 10yrs
Criminal