Championship and Covid

BonnieSituation

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

A group stage followed by a knockout stage doesn't reward failure. That is a stupid thing to say.

Backdoors do though. Chucking in a group stage with no consideration to the rest of the calendar or giving second chances is a disaster anyway.

You also complain about "one game". Inter county and club players play plenty of games. They just play them in a haphazard nonsense fashion.
That argument has surely had it's day in an age where players are getting flogged?

Hawkeye9212

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Backdoors do though. Chucking in a group stage with no consideration to the rest of the calendar or giving second chances is a disaster anyway.

You also complain about "one game". Inter county and club players play plenty of games. They just play them in a haphazard nonsense fashion.
That argument has surely had it's day in an age where players are getting flogged?

I never said anything about backdoors. I'm also not complaining about anything. Just having a discussion. Go and unleash your roid rage on someone else.

I'm fine with a straight knockout system but the GAA will probably replicate the hurling and go for a group stage. They're also insisting on a Tier 2 competition so I don't know how that would fit in. I can also guarantee you that the top counties will oppose any system which sees 2 Division 1 sides being seeding against eachother. So will the GAA. They won't want Kerry and Dublin playing eachother in Round 1.

beggars_bush

irishgeo wrote: »

Anyone who things Connacht teams are going to give up new York are mad. Mayo and Galway make a mint in fundraising with the trip over every 5 years.

Don't forget the free junket for provincial officials

BonnieSituation

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

I never said anything about backdoors. I'm also not complaining about anything. Just having a discussion. Go and unleash your roid rage on someone else.

I'm fine with a straight knockout system but the GAA will probably replicate the hurling and go for a group stage. They're also insisting on a Tier 2 competition so I don't know how that would fit in. I can also guarantee you that the top counties will oppose any system which sees 2 Division 1 sides being seeding against eachother. So will the GAA. They won't want Kerry and Dublin playing eachother in Round 1.

But if they were seeded they wouldn't play each other? Isn't that the point of seedings?

I'd imagine that in this hypothetical first round scenario you would have in all cases a Div1/Div2 v Div3/Div4 in every fixture.

DDC1990

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/0625/1149513-gaa-championship-format-to-be-announced-no-backdoor/

So straight knockout in the football. Does that mean no Quarter Finals/Super 8 round or do the put the losing Provincial Finalists into the Super 8's I wonder.

Good to see that the National Leagues will be concluded also. Would have been a disaster for next year's format if they hadn't concluded.

BonnieSituation

DDC1990 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/0625/1149513-gaa-championship-format-to-be-announced-no-backdoor/

So straight knockout in the football. Does that mean no Quarter Finals/Super 8 round or do the put the losing Provincial Finalists into the Super 8's I wonder.

Good to see that the National Leagues will be concluded also. Would have been a disaster for next year's format if they hadn't concluded.

I'm assuming it will be old school pre-2001 system.

Yet again they had a chance to unlink the provincials and AI Series and didn't take it.

CiarraiAbu2

For one year could they not have an open draw, they just cant let go of the provisional system. Would be nice to a get a few heavy weights in round one, Dublin or Kerry away to Galway, Tyrone or Donegal, even though as it stands Tyrone and Donegal will meet in round 1.

Coillte_Bhoy

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Again. No one is saying get rid of the provincials; what's being said is that we need to get rid of the link between provincials and entry into the all Ireland series.

Which is effectively the same thing as without being linked to the AI they will soon become meaningless, and that would be no bad thing imo.

Coillte_Bhoy

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

I never said anything about backdoors. I'm also not complaining about anything. Just having a discussion. Go and unleash your roid rage on someone else.

I'm fine with a straight knockout system but the GAA will probably replicate the hurling and go for a group stage. They're also insisting on a Tier 2 competition so I don't know how that would fit in. I can also guarantee you that the top counties will oppose any system which sees 2 Division 1 sides being seeding against eachother. So will the GAA. They won't want Kerry and Dublin playing eachother in Round 1.

'How can they be seeded against each other? The whole point of seeding would be to keep them apart.

BonnieSituation

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Which is effectively the same thing as without being linked to the AI they will soon become meaningless, and that would be no bad thing imo.

Completely agree. But what you do is you give an illusion to some that you're not "getting rid" of the provincials.

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

'How can they be seeded against each other? The whole point of seeding would be to keep them apart.

I subsequently cleared that up with himself.

franglan

Open draw with second chance qualifiers would be ideal. If they are keeping provincial series can we not go with qualifiers as well with no super 8's. Would it really add that much extra weekends required? Would require games in every province every Sat/Sunday with no unnecessary weekends off for counties but don't think that's a complaint!

BonnieSituation

franglan wrote: »

Open draw with second chance qualifiers would be ideal. If they are keeping provincial series can we not go with qualifiers as well with no super 8's. Would it really add that much extra weekends required? Would require games in every province every Sat/Sunday with no unnecessary weekends off for counties but don't think that's a complaint!

What's this obsession with second chances?

feargale

Let's have the old-fashioned championship, all knock-out, four provincial champions into semi-finals, no backdoor. Seven consecutive Sundays - not ideal but it will do this year. And leave the rest to the clubs.

franglan

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What's this obsession with second chances?

Think players deserve it tbh for the effort and sacrifices they make for their county. Making a quarter final via qualifiers for some counties would be seen as a success - doesn't have to end up with an all Ireland for a successful season.

BonnieSituation

feargale wrote: »

Let's have the old-fashioned championship, all knock-out, four provincial champions into semi-finals, no backdoor. Seven consecutive Sundays - not ideal but it will do this year. And leave the rest to the clubs.

Exactly

franglan wrote: »

Think players deserve it tbh for the effort and sacrifices they make for their county. Making a quarter final via qualifiers for some counties would be seen as a success - doesn't have to end up with an all Ireland for a successful season.

Where are you pulling the time out of to do this?

Your plan will have us playing the 2020 championship during the 2021 league. Pure bumpf is what that is.

I see they mention about Wexford and Kilkenny receiving a bye.
Considering it was a points difference scenario I'd be opposing that.
Not sure how Leinster works now, is it the 5 teams or do they take Offaly/Carlow/Antrim back for 8.

We got the softer side of the football draw so while we could be one and done, we are also one meaningful game away from a semi final.

Hulk Hands

CiarraiAbu2 wrote: »

For one year could they not have an open draw, they just cant let go of the provisional system. Would be nice to a get a few heavy weights in round one, Dublin or Kerry away to Galway, Tyrone or Donegal, even though as it stands Tyrone and Donegal will meet in round 1.

Would be nice to get rid of the provincial system alright, but i'l never get this obsession with wanting to see the best teams knock each other out from the start. Sure, if Dublin got drawn away to Kerry R1 it would be interesting, but it makes it far far more likely the final ends up being Dublin v Roscommon and the marquee game of the year is reduced to a farce. No respectable open draw format in the world goes in without seeding, whether it be Champions League, World Cups, Tennis Majors, World Snooker or Darts Championships or NFL/NBA Playoff's.

BonnieSituation

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Would be nice to get rid of the provincial system alright, but i'l never get this obsession with wanting to see the best teams knock each other out from the start. Sure, if Dublin got drawn away to Kerry R1 it would be interesting, but it makes it far far more likely the final ends up being Dublin v Roscommon and the marquee game of the year is reduced to a farce. No respectable open draw format in the world goes in without seeding, whether it be Champions League, World Cups, Tennis Majors, World Snooker or Darts Championships or NFL/NBA Playoff's.

How is it a farce?

I agree that seeding should apply and would be better, but to not have it isn't farcical especially in a world where the provincials are still the worst thing about the AI series.

Hulk Hands

BonnieSituation wrote: »

How is it a farce?

I agree that seeding should apply and would be better, but to not have it isn't farcical especially in a world where the provincials are still the worst thing about the AI series.

I'm not sure of the argument here? It isn't about seeding within provincials? Provincials, even in the old system, provides a form of seeding by ensuring the best teams get matched off before exiting a province. I was referring to the desire (that loads seem to have) to have an unseeded open draw championship, and was asking why would that be preferable. It only risks lobsided draws and less interesting games at the latter stages

Coillte_Bhoy

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Completely agree. But what you do is you give an illusion to some that you're not "getting rid" of the provincials.

Ya but who are you trying to fool with the illusion? The stumbling block to getting rid are the provincial councils themselves

Fr Tod Umptious

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Ya but who are you trying to fool with the illusion? The stumbling block to getting rid are the provincial councils themselves

Totally agree

You need to keep them involved that's why my idea of a stepping stone to a reformed football championship would be to replace the provinces with regions, north, south, east and west.

Exclude NY and KK and you have 32 teams.

4 groups of 8.
Each team starts at the regional QF, not the provincial preliminary as you have in Leinster and Ulster, not in the provincial SF as you have in Connacht and Munster, but all at the same level, the regional QF

And in a backdoor situation, all losing at the same point teams enter the backdoor at the same point.
Teams beaten in regional QF go into Round 1, beaten in regional SF go into Rd 2 etc
No more Louth beating Carlow in the Leinster preliminary and then Louth losing to Westmeath in the Leinster QF and both Carlow and Louth then in the draw for Qualifiers Round 1.

It means that all teams make it out of the region, or thorough the back door by playing the same amount of games.

And even better the regions can be administered by the existing provincial councils

The downside is that there would have to be realignment of teams to different regions from their existing provinces to even them up, Wexford and Carlow to Munster perhaps, Longford and Cavan to Connacht etc

But come on, peope will get over that soon enough too.

PTH2009

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/0625/1149604-munster-and-leinster-hurling-draws-live-on-rte/

Its something at least

All these summer hurling is better, winter is ****e people. Don't go to the games then

feargale

PTH2009 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/0625/1149604-munster-and-leinster-hurling-draws-live-on-rte/

Its something at least

All these summer hurling is better, winter is ****e people. Don't go to the games then

Will Christy Ring, N. Rackard etc also proceed on a knockout basis?

PTH2009

feargale wrote: »

Will Christy Ring, N. Rackard etc also proceed on a knockout basis?

not sure and hopefully it will be announced tomorrow by the GAA

I wonder how they will do the Liam McCarthy Cup qualifiers. They will be 6 teams that won't reach the provincial finals

Any full knockout should be seeded.

Boom__Boom

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Ya but who are you trying to fool with the illusion? The stumbling block to getting rid are the provincial councils themselves

The thing is that if you were setting up the GAA today, no-one would remotely think of having provincial councils. They are a completely unnecessary middle management layer between the county boards and Croke Park. A serious amount of time and money is wasted on the 4 different councils doing things 4 times instead of the something just being done once at national level.

Sadly the odds of getting rid of the provincial councils is tiny because they offer fiefdoms and jobs for the boys.

CiarraiAbu2

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Would be nice to get rid of the provincial system alright, but i'l never get this obsession with wanting to see the best teams knock each other out from the start. Sure, if Dublin got drawn away to Kerry R1 it would be interesting, but it makes it far far more likely the final ends up being Dublin v Roscommon and the marquee game of the year is reduced to a farce. No respectable open draw format in the world goes in without seeding, whether it be Champions League, World Cups, Tennis Majors, World Snooker or Darts Championships or NFL/NBA Playoff's.

I see where your coming from but the beauty of not seeding them gives the small teams a chance to get to the final, with eight teams in division one the chances of them not having a div one team in the final would be slim. As it is there how many teams could really put it up to Dublin.

The Lost Sheep

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Totally agree

You need to keep them involved that's why my idea of a stepping stone to a reformed football championship would be to replace the provinces with regions, north, south, east and west.

Exclude NY and KK and you have 32 teams.

4 groups of 8.
Each team starts at the regional QF, not the provincial preliminary as you have in Leinster and Ulster, not in the provincial SF as you have in Connacht and Munster, but all at the same level, the regional QF

And in a backdoor situation, all losing at the same point teams enter the backdoor at the same point.
Teams beaten in regional QF go into Round 1, beaten in regional SF go into Rd 2 etc
No more Louth beating Carlow in the Leinster preliminary and then Louth losing to Westmeath in the Leinster QF and both Carlow and Louth then in the draw for Qualifiers Round 1.

It means that all teams make it out of the region, or thorough the back door by playing the same amount of games.

And even better the regions can be administered by the existing provincial councils

The downside is that there would have to be realignment of teams to different regions from their existing provinces to even them up, Wexford and Carlow to Munster perhaps, Longford and Cavan to Connacht etc

But come on, peope will get over that soon enough too.

Except just replacing provinces with 4 groups of 8 isnt better. It's more symmetrical etc but isnt better. The season structure with the league completed before the provincial championships which lead into all Ireland needs to change.

TCDStudent1

I assume NY are not going to be involved this year. However, I wouldn't like to see them omitted going forward. It is a huge occasion for GAA in NY and it is a fantastic trip for the players & fans of the competing counties. While their presence may make for an awkward championship structure, sometimes you need to look beyond that.

TCDStudent1

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

I assume NY are not going to be involved this year. However, I wouldn't like to see them omitted going forward. It is a huge occasion for GAA in NY and it is a fantastic trip for the players & fans of the competing counties. While their presence may make for an awkward championship structure, sometimes you need to look beyond that.

We shouldn’t care about a huge occasion in NY.