A must read for the ''lockdown'' brigade.

trapp

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/16/asia/coronavirus-xi-wuhan-anger-intl-hnk/index.html

dwayneshintzy

Are you comparing the measures being taken in Ireland to what went on in Wuhan?

dartboardio

Thank you for this.

Some Load of fecking eejits around the place shouting 'lockdown, lockdown!' when they haven't a clue what something like that would take, or how it would probably put us on our arse ten times worse than any crash would.

trapp

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

Are you comparing the measures being taken in Ireland to what went on in Wuhan?

No but some seem to want that here.

Madness.

Even stepping outside the front door and guards stopping you.

dwayneshintzy

Are you currently in Ireland?

I'm not, but speaking to my parents in Donegal they don't seem to find the shutdown excessive. And I don't think they've been stopped by the Guards on their way to Tesco yet.

joeguevara

dartboardio wrote: »

Thank you for this.

Some Load of fecking eejits around the place shouting 'lockdown, lockdown!' when they haven't a clue what something like that would take, or how it would probably put us on our arse ten times worse than any crash would.

There are two things that are important. Unless we fully know the long term effects the virus can have on people who get it, allowing full infection to develop immunity might mean severe lung damage. Also, is economic stability worth large human sacrifice. I don’t think anyone is ready for that, just yet.

trapp

joeguevara wrote: »

There are two things that are important. Unless we fully know the long term effects the virus can have on people who get it, allowing full infection to develop immunity might mean severe lung damage. Also, is economic stability worth large human sacrifice. I don’t think anyone is ready for that, just yet.

I think you misunderstand.

I believe this country will do what it takes through choice.

But it cannot be acceptable for the state either through the army or gardai to force people to remain in their homes in their own towns as has been advocated by some.

That, virus or not, will never be acceptable.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

trapp wrote: »

I think you misunderstand.

I believe this country will do what it takes through choice.

But it cannot be acceptable for the state either through the army or gardai to force people to remain in their homes in their own towns as has been advocated by some.

That, virus or not, will never be acceptable.

Of course it will, if that is what's deemed necessary to get a grip on this pandemic...

There will always be people such as yourself that will want to rebel against such measures, because you have it in your head that your government has some kind of hidden agenda to get greater control over you... (or some other BS half-baked conspiracy theory)

But without an army behind you... what are you going to do? If we, as a country, decide that partial or full lockdown is necessary... then that's what will need to happen! And people like you, will just have to suffer through it for the good of the country!

Larbre34

Its a moot point. Why?

The Garda + Garda Reserve + Defence Forces + DF Reserve + Civil Defence units total about 30,000 personnel.

Thats before you takeaway command staff, those that are ill or in isolation, on long term sick leave for other reasons, or recently post-partum, or personnel required for securing essential facilities etc etc.

Lets say conservatively, that leaves 20,000 bodies to try and enforce a lockdown on 5 million people in a sparsely populated 70,000 square kms.

The Government will continue to rely on the common sense of most people to help tackle this, because there simply isn't the muscle available to do otherwise.

Peregrinus

trapp wrote: »

I think you misunderstand.

I believe this country will do what it takes through choice.

But it cannot be acceptable for the state either through the army or gardai to force people to remain in their homes in their own towns as has been advocated by some.

That, virus or not, will never be acceptable.

But what if "what it takes" is people being required to remain in their own homes?

You have arbitrarily picked a particular measure (which, SFAIK, noone is calling for) and decreed that it will never be acceptable. But you offer no reason as to why this measure, in particular, is unacceptable, and you don't address the obvious question; if it turns out that this measure is necessary, does "neccessary" trump "unacceptable", or the other way around? And, whichever way it is, why is that the answer?

trapp

trapp wrote: »

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/16/asia/coronavirus-xi-wuhan-anger-intl-hnk/index.html

I’m not going to bother clicking that link.

Your account has been pretty much dormant for 8 years and now you’re piping up everywhere and quite agenda driven.

Hope others can see through this and take away the oxygen.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

Larbre34 wrote: »

Its a moot point. Why?

The Garda + Garda Reserve + Defence Forces + DF Reserve + Civil Defence units total about 30,000 personnel.

Thats before you takeaway command staff, those that are ill or in isolation, on long term sick leave for other reasons, or recently post-partum, or personnel required for securing essential facilities etc etc.

Lets say conservatively, that leaves 20,000 bodies to try and enforce a lockdown on 5 million people in a sparsely populated 70,000 square kms.

The Government will continue to rely on the common sense of most people to help tackle this, because there simply isn't the muscle available to do otherwise.

Most people won't need to be "forced" to stay in their homes, if the measures are aimed at saving huge amounts of lives....

Most will comply by choice... especially if we have the very scary Italian type numbers developing!

So you won't need that many guards or army in reality.

You may need more old school style enforcement for certain people, like the OP... there will always be a few who will completely lose their heads, and start rebelling. But most people will be sensible and comply!

Peregrinus

What Greta said.

Mandatory home confinement does not require a policeman outside every front door, plus one around the back in case you decide to get smart.

In Italy, at the moment, you can only leave your home for selected reasons (to buy food, to go to the doctor/chemist . . .).

It's a self-certification system; before you leave the house, you fill out a form with details of the journey you will make and ticking a box for the justification for that journey. You bring that form with you when you leave the house. You can be stopped (e.g. at a checkpoint) and asked to produce your form, and then your story can be checked out. If you're found at a place or at a time that doesn't tally with the journey that you are supposed to be making, or if your claim to have a doctor's appointment doesn't stack up, fines ensue.

In China, you register your intended excursion online (using an app) and they send you back a QR code which will be coloured either red (stay at home) or green (you can make your journey). When you're out and about you can be asked to produce your phone, with QR code. If the code is green you may get waved on, or they may scan it to check that where you are now corresponds with the excursion that has been authorised. Policemen, for example, will often scan your QR code, whereas supermarkets and pharmacists are likely just to check the colour. Your QR code disappears from your phone when your excursion is supposed to have been completed, by which time you should be at home. You need to repeat the process if you want to go out again.

The Italian system is easily replicated; I believe the Chinese are freely sharing the app and associated software with governments that want to use it for CV quarantine purposes.

I don't think the West are going to use a Chinese-made app that tracks people's movements, unless they open source the code. But it does sound pretty cleverly done.

Peregrinus

Perhaps not. But I think it would be a fairly straightforward matter to write an app that does basically the same job. The point is that we are long past the era where enforcing a quarantine required a policeman at every street corner. It would be a challenge, but not an insurmountable challenge.

The app thing would be good as well in terms of matching where people may have interacted.

I'm a bit surprised governments haven't been telling people to switch on their location history, and we haven't seen calls for Google and Apple to share it or use it to find links. The amount of data available for tracing people would be huge.

Nijmegen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The app thing would be good as well in terms of matching where people may have interacted.

I'm a bit surprised governments haven't been telling people to switch on their location history, and we haven't seen calls for Google and Apple to share it or use it to find links. The amount of data available for tracing people would be huge.

As the Israelis are proving, you don’t need to switch it on for countries with decent intelligence services to know where you are.

As for the lockdown, it won’t be enforced by a copper on every street. It’ll be enforced by social pressure and people reporting non-conformists who will be dealt with individually. Not since the war and maybe blackouts have we had to see this level of control on what we do, but it’s make or break stuff and the individualists and libertarians are gonna just have to get with the programme.

Peregrinus

Nijmegen wrote: »

As the Israelis are proving, you don’t need to switch it on for countries with decent intelligence services to know where you are.

Israel, China and the former East Germany aside, most countries don't have the resources or infrastructure to monitor the whereabouts of all of the people, all of the time.

Nor it is necessary in the present circumstances. The Italian system is largely self-policing. It's reinforced by the closure of businesses and places of resort; the more that this happens, the less reason anyonoe has to go out. And the business that remain open are expected to play their part in enforcement - e.g the pharmacist needs to see your completed form before he will admit you or serve you. The role played by direct enforcement by police, etc, is supplementary to all of this.

eddie73

Lockdown is going to have to happen at certain times to relax pressure on the hospitals.

We don't know the long term effects of this virus. Getting sick is all well and good to build immunity but that doesn't mean you can't get it again therefore spread it.

This is going to be a long year

kevcos

The OP makes a valid point though.
It would be very foolish to think that governments are solely looking at defeating coronovirus and that result is the end game.

Corononvirus has cast a dice and a major power play hidden from view is underway where States are plotting to leapfrog one another.

Oh,to be in a fly on the wall in Putins office right now.

plodder

joeguevara wrote: »

There are two things that are important. Unless we fully know the long term effects the virus can have on people who get it, allowing full infection to develop immunity might mean severe lung damage.

On that point, an Italian doctor was on RTE radio last weekend saying that recovered patients did not have permanent lung damage.

boombang

Off topic, but I was so annoyed with RTE declaring last Thursday that Ireland was on "lockdown" on the news that schools, colleges and libraries were shut. I'd just got off a plane and I read the headline and I got a start. Then I saw the extent of the closures and realised it was far, far from a lock down and more like a snow day. While we might be approaching something like a complete shut down soon, I hope the idiots at RTE can report it accurately.

plodder

I do have a concern that we in this country have a tendency to jump in with both feet. We particularly relish being ahead of the Brits and scolding them for not keeping up. Eg, with the school closure. I just hope the powers that be, are prepared to consider less onerous restrictions than a complete lockdown, before they contemplate imposing a lockdown (even in specific areas only). Though, I think they are right to pass whatever legislation is needed to allow it. According to the IT today, the existing 1947 health act has extensive powers for control of infectious diseases, but still needs to be brought up to date.

joeguevara

plodder wrote: »

On that point, an Italian doctor was on RTE radio last weekend saying that recovered patients did not have permanent lung damage.

A doctor, cannot make a determination like that so soon. And it looks like it could be an incorrect determination. https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-survivors-lung-damage-ards-fcim-intensive-care-research-2020-3?r=US&IR=T

rossie1977

Our two choices are simple given we are on same trajectory as Italy just Italy from February 25th or 26th

1. Test as much per capita as South Korea and quarantine everyone who tests positive
Or
2. Lockdown

Come early April if we haven't done #1 then #2 is inevitable

If we do have to go down the dreaded lockdown route. I hope we are not as strict as they have been in Spain and we allow people to do some exercise outside as long as they don't do it with anyone else. Not that I have any faith in our so-called police force to properly enforce any rules.

hmmm

A lockdown will only be necessary if people are stupid, and don't distance. I'm sure the public health people are looking at patterns of social distancing, and deciding whether we are doing enough. Other than a few obvious cases where we could do better, we seem to be doing a reasonably good job - most times I hear about people mixing is outdoors, which isn't going to be as dangerous as indoor meetings.

If we had an area with large-scale community transmission, I wouldn't be surprised if that area was told to stay indoors.

Lock-downs are a terrible thing for both physical and mental health, and will lead to further large-scale job losses. We shouldn't be rushing into them, and those people cheerleading for them also need to cop-on and appreciate the consequences. This will not be over in a couple of weeks - any measure we introduce will last months.

shesty

The Government has most likely not gone down the absolute lockdown route because they know this could go on for a bit yet and it's too hard to maintain a lockdown over such a long period (I'm sorry but China is a bit of an outlier when it comes to that sort of stuff). People can only put up with so much. I Would say they may do it if it comes to it, but they probably won't do it until they really absolutely have to - if the numbers start showing sustained signs of getting totally out of control.

Idbatterim

they have done well, buy time, implement measures , fine. I am not really prepared to live like a hermit for months, I am living alone now, I dont think locking down the entire country for months, is acceptable. Start addressing the key issues, let the elderly shop in the early hours or whatever, ban kids from grocery shops whatever. But shutting the country down for a few weeks is one thing, from a social and financial perspective. Shutting it down for months, is going to create serious social and financial problems...

you'd wonder could they even create like "elderly day" or "elderly hour" where the younger would just avoid pharmacies, gp, shops , hair dressers etc and maybe even public transport...

China is one thing, the Irish are doing very well now and pulling together. Its fascinating to see how this is all going to unfold...

kjt

trapp wrote: »

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/16/asia/coronavirus-xi-wuhan-anger-intl-hnk/index.html

A must watch for the "selfish brigade".

We are not ready for this!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J60fQr0GWo

Sky News in Italy | The shocking centre of the COVID-19 crisis
The crisis gripping the town at the centre of the global COVID-19 crisis in Italy has been witnessed by Sky News' Chief Correspondent Stuart Ramsay.

Pinkpotato

What do you think will happen.
Close everything down for a couple of weeks.
Virus gone. Then what??

Because as soon as anyone goes up the North, over to see a football match, a holiday to Spain, they come home and bring the virus home with them. We are back to square 1.

Or do we keep all airports and ports closed, no people in or out. No products in or out. Nothing. For 2 years maybe more until a vaccine is created, IF a vaccine is created.

2 weeks quarantine somewhere for everyone coming into Ireland. This would make your 1 week Spanish holiday 3 weeks long!

But what about produce, Covid 19 was discovered on surfaces 17 days after everyone left the Diamond Princess. So no imports or exports.
This would also mean
No packages from Asos, Boohoo or any other places people order from.

Idiots haven't a clue and screaming for a Lock down. Lock down will not help us.

Iscreamkone

Did a lockdown help in China?

pablo128

Pinkpotato wrote: »

What do you think will happen.
Close everything down for a couple of weeks.
Virus gone. Then what??

Because as soon as anyone goes up the North, over to see a football match, a holiday to Spain, they come home and bring the virus home with them. We are back to square 1.

Or do we keep all airports and ports closed, no people in or out. No products in or out. Nothing. For 2 years maybe more until a vaccine is created, IF a vaccine is created.

2 weeks quarantine somewhere for everyone coming into Ireland. This would make your 1 week Spanish holiday 3 weeks long!

But what about produce, Covid 19 was discovered on surfaces 17 days after everyone left the Diamond Princess. So no imports or exports.
This would also mean
No packages from Asos, Boohoo or any other places people order from.

Idiots haven't a clue and screaming for a Lock down. Lock down will not help us.

Enlighten us. What's your solution?

Pinkpotato

Iscreamkone wrote: »

Did a lockdown help in China?

Nope, they have cases coming into the country every day

Augme

The irony of you calling other people idiots is quite entertaining.

The point of a lockdown isn't to get rid of covid19 cases, it's to try and stop hospitals system collapsing. If you did even a bit of basic research or had a bit cop on you would realise this.

Salary Negotiator

Lockdown is just a buzzword for people who want to complain.

If stricter measures were implemented many of the same people would be complaining that the government had gone all authoritarian.

smelly sock

Pinkpotato wrote: »

What do you think will happen.
Close everything down for a couple of weeks.
Virus gone. Then what??

Because as soon as anyone goes up the North, over to see a football match, a holiday to Spain, they come home and bring the virus home with them. We are back to square 1.

Or do we keep all airports and ports closed, no people in or out. No products in or out. Nothing. For 2 years maybe more until a vaccine is created, IF a vaccine is created.

2 weeks quarantine somewhere for everyone coming into Ireland. This would make your 1 week Spanish holiday 3 weeks long!

But what about produce, Covid 19 was discovered on surfaces 17 days after everyone left the Diamond Princess. So no imports or exports.
This would also mean
No packages from Asos, Boohoo or any other places people order from.

Idiots haven't a clue and screaming for a Lock down. Lock down will not help us.

I think people want clarity and certainty. As does the Economy.

Pinkpotato

Augme wrote: »

The irony of you calling other people idiots is quite entertaining.

The point of a lockdown isn't to get rid of covid19 cases, it's to try and stop hospitals system collapsing. If you did even a bit of basic research or had a bit cop on you would realise this.

That's not why people are calling for lockdown!! They are calling for it because they think it will go away!

The aim is to slow the spread and build herd immunity. So we can all carry on as normal when we receive a certain amount of infected cases.

The only reason there would be a lock down would be if the virus spread to fast for HCP to cope.
So the implications of The measures set by government would slow it down, it's more idiots not listening who are at fault of it happening. Not the government. Probably same ones calling for lockdown

Dakota Dan

Augme wrote: »

The irony of you calling other people idiots is quite entertaining.

The point of a lockdown isn't to get rid of covid19 cases, it's to try and stop hospitals system collapsing. If you did even a bit of basic research or had a bit cop on you would realise this.

I wonder do the majority if the people screaming for lockdown know this, somehow I doubt it.

begbysback

There should be a ban for people requesting a lockdown.

Pinkpotato

Dakota Dan wrote: »

I wonder do the majority if the people screaming for lockdown know this, somehow I doubt it.

They don't! They think it will get rid of the virus from Ireland.

Pinkpotato

smelly sock wrote: »

I think people want clarity and certainty. As does the Economy.

I don't know how clearer it can be made.
Stay at home. Unless you have to go to work or shopping. Even if you have to go shopping, the whole family don't need to go.
Stay at home. If you are not at home, go home

endabob1

Pinkpotato wrote: »

What do you think will happen.
Close everything down for a couple of weeks.
Virus gone. Then what??

Because as soon as anyone goes up the North, over to see a football match, a holiday to Spain, they come home and bring the virus home with them. We are back to square 1.

Or do we keep all airports and ports closed, no people in or out. No products in or out. Nothing. For 2 years maybe more until a vaccine is created, IF a vaccine is created.

2 weeks quarantine somewhere for everyone coming into Ireland. This would make your 1 week Spanish holiday 3 weeks long!

But what about produce, Covid 19 was discovered on surfaces 17 days after everyone left the Diamond Princess. So no imports or exports.
This would also mean
No packages from Asos, Boohoo or any other places people order from.

Idiots haven't a clue and screaming for a Lock down. Lock down will not help us.

You realise that without a lockdown you are condemning tens of thousands to die......

The issue is (I am in the UK bud from all I have read Ireland is in the same boat) there aren't enough beds, last Friday so 5 days ago, when there were just over 3k cases in the UK 2 London hospitals had no ICU beds, there are now double that in cases.
So people, not corona victims who needed emergency treatment had no where to go, the woman who needed an emergency c section... the car crash victim.... the emergency beds are already full, this is what happens when you run a health service at near capacity as normal, there is no flexibility

The lock down slows the spread, you are right it doesn't stop it, but it slows it which will give the Health services a better chance to respond and also buys time for a vaccination to be found.

A lockdown is not the best solution, it is the only solution right now

recyclebin

I think it's ironic that the person calling people idiots didn't bother posting about it in the lockdown thread. Instead they created a totally unnecessary thread.

Jurgen Klopp

Dakota Dan wrote: »

I wonder do the majority if the people screaming for lockdown know this, somehow I doubt it.

I can think of at least 1 poster here that actually couldn't fathom the fact that a 3 weeks lockdown would not completely eradicate it from the country and things go back to normal.

I am seriously concerned there a lot out there who are actually that thick

In fact you'd wonder if a lot of the LOCKDOWN! crowd won't be going mad demanding all restrictions lifted after a lockdown period I can actually see it now

"We've had the lockdown, no new cases what do we need it for?! Blueshirt dictatorship!"

Pinkpotato

endabob1 wrote: »

You realise that without a lockdown you are condemning tens of thousands to die......

The issue is (I am in the UK bud from all I have read Ireland is in the same boat) there aren't enough beds, last Friday so 5 days ago, when there were just over 3k cases in the UK 2 London hospitals had no ICU beds, there are now double that in cases.
So people, not corona victims who needed emergency treatment had no where to go, the woman who needed an emergency c section... the car crash victim.... the emergency beds are already full, this is what happens when you run a health service at near capacity as normal, there is no flexibility

The lock down slows the spread, you are right it doesn't stop it, but it slows it which will give the Health services a better chance to respond and also buys time for a vaccination to be found.

A lockdown is not the best solution, it is the only solution right now

So we lock down again and again every few weeks, so we can build the herd immunity?That's the long term goal for this!
Social distancing slows the spread, it works in other countries where they don't have literal bold teenagers for adults. It's like we need to lock them in their bedroom to stop them sneaking out.

Same ones will scream how the gardai are rats and pigs for not letting them leave the house if it came to it

Elmer Blooker

Not a cloud in the sky morning, what a beautiful spring day after an endless winter of incessant rain and storms!
But remember folks - lock up your children, plonk them in front of a screen and do not let them outdoors .. all that vitamin D might even boost their immune systems!

biko

It's like listening to anti-vaxxers

Beasty

Threads merged

endabob1

Pinkpotato wrote: »

So we lock down again and again every few weeks, so we can build the herd immunity?That's the long term goal for this!
Social distancing slows the spread, it works in other countries where they don't have literal bold teenagers for adults. It's like we need to lock them in their bedroom to stop them sneaking out.

Same ones will scream how the gardai are rats and pigs for not letting them leave the house if it came to it

Most of Europe is on lockdown, as is Asia, India just shut down for 3 weeks, 1.2 billion people.... I am genuinely curious about where social distancing is working

Pinch Flat

You close to devolping a vaccine Op? Or maybe you could set out your own plan. Perhaps give someone in wuhan a call?