McNugget flu returns

Absoluvely

Deleted User wrote: »

As is Africa. And S.America too. You're being awfully selective in what diseases you care to include.. AIDS has killed more people than either CORVID, or SARS.. and that originated in Africa. Where's your outrage about that, and it's links to bush meat there? In fact, Ebola and smallpox supposedly came from Africa (or the M.East), so...



Nope. They're animals, not humans. There is a rather strong difference.. Unless we're talking about fairy land and not reality?

Crows and ravens aren't widely known for preying on people.

Absoluvely

Absoluvely wrote: »

Crows and ravens aren't widely known for preying on people.

I genuinely don't have a clue what you mean by that.

Bobblehats

Deleted User wrote: »

I genuinely don't have a clue what you mean by that.

Well I learned a new word anyway

Buford T. Justice XIX

Deleted User wrote: »

I genuinely don't have a clue what you mean by that.

Crows and ravens are corvids, a family of birds.

I'm assuming your spellcheck changed Covid19 to Corvids?

_Brian

Victor wrote: »

Meanwhile in Cavan last week - farmer culls 450,000 chickens due to bird flu

https://www.anglocelt.ie/news/farming/articles/2020/03/11/4187048-farmer-culls-450000-chickens-due-to-bird-flu/

Monaghan

Jonybgud

_Brian wrote: »

Monaghan

More proof it doesn't exist. Yet to meet anyone from there.

Capt'n Midnight

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I think this whole thing is going to change everything, social customs

OMG

You mean six centuries after handguns came to Europe we will no longer go through the custom of proving we aren't carrying a knife in our dominant hand when meeting new people :eek:


*Fistbumps*

Capt'n Midnight

Absoluvely wrote: »

Crows and ravens aren't widely known for preying on people.

It's the Magpies and Rooks you've got to watch out for.

sbs2010

Urquell wrote: »

Do we have any links to what's being discussed?

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058062763/1/#post112874452

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058062763

AllForIt

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

China has terrible animal rights, the animal markets have caged bats, dogs, chickens, rats, wild animals and cats stuffed into little cages together in filth until their slaughtered on the spot. Its sickening how animals are treated over there.
Those rats and bats that are full of diseases and coming from who knows where, literally taken from the wild, in caves and off the streets are hacked up on the spot, not washed or checked for fleas or anything else, theyre cut up and sold for consumption.
The bubonic plague came from fleas on Asian rats and spread across Europe wiping out over half the population. We're lucky its a strain of flu virus and not something much worse.

If anything good comes of this epidemic it will be that it shines a spotlight on the inhumane caging of animals for sale sometimes in high numbers in the one cage as practiced in the far east and China.

Buford T. Justice VI

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

Crows and ravens are corvids, a family of birds.

I'm assuming your spellcheck changed Covid19 to Corvids?

No idea. I assume it did. Or could have been a spelling mistake.

kowloonkev

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I tend to look at this differently than others, and I'm more patient with Chinese behavior. I'm not expecting them to behave the same as Irish or Americans, simply because their civilisattion developed differently than ours. Western Europe and the US had their industrial revolutions long before China, and we modernized during a period when pollution wasn't such a strong concern. For Ireland, we managed to skip all of that simply by getting a jump by the EEC, but if that hadn't have happened we probably would have needed to develop a heavy industry focus at some point to push our economic progress forward. Instead, we made the jump from a agricultural society to a services society relatively quickly.

The point is that China is changing. Even in the decade that I've lived there, both habits and the perceptions of people have been changing. When I arrived, spitting was commonplace. Doctors smoked in hospitals. Mothers would hold their baby or child in the air, while he pissed on the floor of a shopping mall. etc. There's a heap of examples of such behavior, but the important note is that it's declining. Laws have been brought in and actually enforced against that. Social pressure from individuals against people to act in such negative ways, is becoming more common. I've seen people on the street stop and complain at behavior that would have been ignored previously.

China has a culture of silence. Traditionally, people didn't express their disgust or disapproval of many behaviors because you didn't know the influence/power of the other person. The repercussions of insulting another person could be widespread and sometimes terminal.

However, with the rise of netcitizens, the expression of Chinese people online, they do have a strong impact on how the average Chinese person thinks. They're changing their society as time goes by.

I'm back living in an area of Xi'an where I lived when I first came to China. It's changed completely. Recycling bins are outside every apartment block. Garbage trucks regularly collect waste. Road sweepers come along every morning and evening to wipe away the waste and dirt. There is a community driven effort to keep the neighborhood clean and healthy. Pollution wise, Xi'an would have pollution driven smog for 9 months of the year, but now it's only really there for about four months, during winter when the coal power plants kick in. And those plants are being refitted to be more environmentally friendly. There were 13 coal power plants when I arrived. There's now 6 remaining, with their work being taken over by nuclear, or clean energy plants located outside the city. Massive progress in a decade.

In terms of food, that will change too, although it'd worth considering that the eating of exotic animals isn't and never was commonplace. I've been to wet markets in Shaanxi, and Chongqing. I never saw bat, or snake in any of them. The more traditional meats are there, although they would butcher for every part of the animal. There's a tendency here on boards to believe that everyone in China is eating these exotics regularly. They're not. Dog is essentially the meat for the very poor, or traditionalists (which are very old, and likely to die soon). The middle aged and young are more interested in beef, chicken, or fish, than eating something for a traditional belief in some supernatural power.

I'd suggest cutting China some slack because it is developing in the face of enormous challenges. The countryside is teeming with people who aren't educated, extremely poor, live in squalor, and are very traditional minded. They resist the need to modernize, often still behaving the same as they would in the Qin dynasty. The cities are generally better, but the people from the countryside come for work, bringing their traditional thinking, and you'll find them behaving the same in the suburbs. There's a lot of friction between city born people and those from the countryside, when it comes to acceptable behavior.

There's a common belief that Chinese people are obedient to the government and will obey whatever laws are brought in, out of fear or tradition. That's definitely not true. Tradition has a lot of power here, and the government needs to be careful as to what it changes. When the no-smoking laws were first brought in, they were ignored. Beijing brought in laws three times in the last ten years to ban smoking in many areas, and most people simply ignored them. It's only in the last two years that the bans are being accepted and followed (for the most part, and just in the cities, not the countryside)

China will need time to evolve. Snapping fingers and expecting instant compliance is not going to happen. It's unrealistic. We will see major changes due to the effects of the Coronavirus, both cultural and legal, but even then, it will take decades before that filters into the consciousness of all Chinese people. Hopefully enough older people will die off to allow the younger Chinese the chance to shape their country more, but that will still take time. Some of the changes will simply be face-saving gestures, while others will be far more serious. But expecting China to behave as a western nation, is unrealistic, and terribly naive. They're never going to match up to our standards for living.. hell, we don't live up to our own standards.

There's a lot of double standards going on in this thread. The west is not perfect in terms of food quality or hygiene. Obesity is a major concern in the west but many just ignore it. We acknowledge the unhealthiness of "fast food" with it's genetic manipulation of "meats" but pretend its fine. There are 16 McDonald restaurants in Xi'an (that I know of). Easily as many KFC... and they're not keeping to European standards of quality. We export our fast food and other unhealthy products to other nations, often with extremely dodgy ingredients or manufacturing processes, but expect those countries to behave better..

So... be patient. China will change. It already is. It probably won't change fast enough to satisfy Airyfairy12, but then, I honestly doubt any realistic pace of change would.

Just to address some points as clearly having been in China a long time, likely with a Chinese partner you will be more inclined to see the bright side.

Regarding the food I would say in top tier and second tier cities people are not eating dogs. It certainly isn't widespread. However in third tier cities in Jiangsu (second wealthiest province I believe) dogs are consumed by a minority. There was a tourist street where I lived which had a shop that always had a whole skinned dog on a skewer and other dogs barking in the back out of view. Also bats and exotic animals are consumed by the rich in China. The poor can't afford them and eating exotic animals is a fairly new trend among upper middle class and is a growing market so don't expect that to change anytime soon.

The recycling bins were a thing in Jiangsu and Guangdong where I lived. They were nicely labeled but never actually used. It is still up to the old grannies and grandads to sort recycling on the side of the road.

The truth is I don't really even care about these issues. But I don't think the west should cut China slack regarding human rights abuses (see Hong Kong, Tibet, Uighers) and the way the manipulate the west and are now controlling our free speech. Now even the NBA are under Chinese control and mouthpieces for the CCP. It's embarrassing.

China have also been hugely investing in Africa, and by investing I mean they loan money to African countries to build infrastructure (Chinese companied build the infrastructure so it comes back to China anyway) then when the African nations can't pay it back China has huge influence and ability to take control of these nations.

China is a dangerous country because in fact, they are far more evolved than the west on many levels of thinking and strategy. If the US and EU continue down the line of putting up with their human rights abuses for the sake of the economy then we will all pay for it in the end, through the erosion of free speech like what is happening in HK currently.

Obviously you have ties to China so you have to be more diplomatic but I'm sure you are aware of what I'm talking about.

kowloonkev

kowloonkev wrote: »

Just to address some points as clearly having been in China a long time, likely with a Chinese partner you will be more inclined to see the bright side.

I'm unmarried. I do have a Chinese girlfriend, but it's a relationship that will never head towards marriage. Her family would never stand for it.

And.. no.. I'm fully capable of seeing the dark sides of China.

Regarding the food I would say in top tier and second tier cities people are not eating dogs. It certainly isn't widespread. However in third tier cities in Jiangsu (second wealthiest province I believe) dogs are consumed by a minority. There was a tourist street where I lived which had a shop that always had a whole skinned dog on a skewer and other dogs barking in the back out of view. Also bats and exotic animals are consumed by the rich in China. The poor can't afford them and eating exotic animals is a fairly new trend among upper middle class and is a growing market so don't expect that to change anytime soon.

Dog restaraunts are present in all cities. Usually though they're in the suburbs/outskirts where the poor or migrant workers live.

As for dog or exotic animals, I've never really encountered it.. and I do know quite a few of the wealthy groups. My girlfriends family is extremely well set up. Snake is something that crops up along with various species of frog. Still, I have't spent much time in the East of China, so perhaps it's more popular there.

It'll change because it gives Xi a pretext to go after the rich families. It serves as a reminder that everyone, rich or poor is there to serve the Party. If Beijing makes a commitment in law to significantly reduce the exotic trade, then, the majority of the rich will fall in line or be forced into line. It really depends on which way Beijing will jump, and nobody can know that before it happens.

The recycling bins were a thing in Jiangsu and Guangdong where I lived. They were nicely labeled but never actually used. It is still up to the old grannies and grandads to sort recycling on the side of the road.

I'm not talking about the plastic bottles. That remains a traditional income for the elderly. The recycling bins are being used though in Xi'an, with proper sorting of rubbish, as the council here will fine the person if they don't. I wouldn't be surprised if it's all dumped and burned, but equally, I wouldn't be too surprised if there's a legit operation. There's a lot of money involved with recycling.

The truth is I don't really even care about these issues. But I don't think the west should cut China slack regarding human rights abuses (see Hong Kong, Tibet, Uighers) and the way the manipulate the west and are now controlling our free speech. Now even the NBA are under Chinese control and mouthpieces for the CCP. It's embarrassing.

Sure. I'd have no issue with China being held up to account for their actions. But who is going to do it? You really want Trump or the last series of American Presidents to start pushing China's buttons on this? The UN are incapable of doing anything which involves the major powers. Who, then, is supposed to take China to task... while also doing it in a way that doesn't antagonise them.

You've lived in China.. What do you think of their victim mentality and reactive aggression to being "unjustly" treated.. ? (And, yes, they're always unjustly treated)

China have also been hugely investing in Africa, and by investing I mean they loan money to African countries to build infrastructure (Chinese companied build the infrastructure so it comes back to China anyway) then when the African nations can't pay it back China has huge influence and ability to take control of these nations.

Yup. Bridges, roads, and buildings built by China but fall apart after ten years. Imperialism. China believes it needs to make these grand gestures to spread its influence.. and I can't really blame them for doing so. They need allies. They're surrounded by US military bases. And.. I don't excuse either China (for their behavior), or African countries for inviting them in.

China is a dangerous country because in fact, they are far more evolved than the west on many levels of thinking and strategy. If the US and EU continue down the line of putting up with their human rights abuses for the sake of the economy then we will all pay for it in the end, through the erosion of free speech like what is happening in HK currently.

China doesn't have free speech, and HK is now part of China. Nope. I'm not terribly sympathetic over HK, because this has been coming for decades. I had friends from HK, and the smart ones left before the takeover. (A few are proud of being Chinese though..) Staying to fight China is useless. They'll never give up HK, and they've never managed to keep their promises before. Why would they start now?

We will pay sometime in the future. I've said it before on Boards. There will be war. China will take back Taiwan within Xi's lifetime. It's going to happen, and right now, the US is not in any kind of position to stop them. Nor is the EU or the UN. Russia is sidling up with China in the face of US aggression, so, there's nobody really around capable/willing to stand up to China militarily.

I tend to argue in threads which relate to China because they usually turn into vague rants. Calls for harsher treatment of China. Demands that China be punished for their human rights history, or their eating habits... Demands that China is such a threat.. And sure, I get the reasoning. I live there. I've got friends from Xinjiang. I've been there, to Tibet, and Mongolia (both sides). I've seen the sh1t that China gets up to. I have students from minorities who need to be careful in how they behave, and will talk to me about their problems.

The problem for me is... I find it all incredibly shallow. They're volunteering others to back up their rants. Most of the posters who complain about China's behavior have no investment in what happens. They're not going to fight against China. Ireland certainly isn't to commit troops in a war. They're not going to volunteer and act as a air worker in those regions (which they can). They're not going to take the time to actually meet or discuss directly with the people involved.. and they have no desire to understand Chinese culture/behavior beyond what they've read in some articles online.

I'd like to see more realistic options applied to China. They can be taken to account and pressure brought to bear on them if it's done in a manner that understands Chinese culture, and their own rather unique behaviors. I'd like to see posters try to understand what drives the Chinese to behave the way they do.. rather than dumb everything down.

Obviously you have ties to China so you have to be more diplomatic but I'm sure you are aware of what I'm talking about.

I do know what you're talking about. My girlfriend is an officer in the PSB. I've spent my time in China building relationships/guanxi with people from high to low.

And the truth is that I'm not terribly diplomatic in China. If I'm asked, I give my honest opinion to people. I do make caveats about those opinions, and I avoid certain topics like the internment camps, but I have no issue talking to a party official about Taiwan or Tibet. The difference is that I listen to their answers rather than automatically accepting western perception on them. I understand, that China will never voluntarily give up Tibet, or Xinjiang. Just as I know that Chinese people will never fully embrace the idea of human rights as perceived by westerners. Hell, most Asians I've met have trouble accepting human rights except for their own people.. so.. no.. I'll give my honest opinion on subjects.. and I haven't been deported yet. I have been examined by various morality bodies in universities for my conversations but I'm pretty good at debating directly with people.. because I understand some of their logic when it comes to these topics.

Finally. China does need to be taken to account for it's behavior, but it needs to be done in a proper manner, taking into account the realities of the situation. Ultimatums won't work. Sanctions won't work. Compromises are possible.. but we have to take into account how China sees the world.. not simply how western countries see China.

Hotblack Desiato

beejee wrote: »

Yes, the old racist trope of microorganisms moving freely from indigenous evolved environments to vulnerable environments elsewhere via mass movement of people.

Maybe you should give a lecture to nature from the side of a cliff or something, don't be afraid to squeak up, either. Tell it about your feelings, you know?

Did that post make any sense in your head?

Hotblack Desiato

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Animal rights are human rights.

Oh for f...... You know what, forget it. :rolleyes:

beejee

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Did that post make any sense in your head?

Yes, as it does in reality.

If "foreigners" have factually introduced diseases to "non-foreigners" time and time again throughout human history, and then some may state that fact during a non-indigenous disease outbreak... How in the name of molasses does that equal "racist trope" in your spacious skull?

Please dig yourself into a hole for my amusement, I'm bored.

To add: is "trope" simply a synonym for "historically accurate"? But even then, where does racism figure into it?

s7ryf3925pivug

It is unsustainable and therefore will change. Maybe by humans making decisions. Maybe by it becoming physically impossible to continue in the same way.

Seeing all the people struggling to get their heads around the pandemic makes me think it will probably be the latter. It was not out of the blue for us here.

Airyfairy12

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure they do.

"Europeans brought deadly viruses and bacteria, such as smallpox, measles, typhus, and cholera, for which Native Americans had no immunity (Denevan, 1976). On their return home, European sailors brought syphilis to Europe."



How? (more than they do already, that is) Lets see some specifics, and how to do it without targeting people unfairly?



As is Africa. And S.America too. You're being awfully selective in what diseases you care to include.. AIDS has killed more people than either CORVID, or SARS.. and that originated in Africa. Where's your outrage about that, and it's links to bush meat there? In fact, Ebola and smallpox supposedly came from Africa (or the M.East), so...



Nope. They're animals, not humans. There is a rather strong difference.. Unless we're talking about fairy land and not reality?

Aids originated from people eating monkey meat as did Ebola, brings me back to my point of eating wild animals and the consequences of countries not having animal rights. I dont know why youre so fixated on my mentioning of where certain viruses have spread from? It didnt come from Mexico. Its not racist to state facts or name a country.

How can governments implement better animal rights? The same way they have in any other country that has animal rights. Ban the wet markets, ban animal testing and crack down on wild animals being sold on the black market.
Increase animal rescue facilities and funding towards animal rights.

The horrific treatment of animals is directly effecting us through the spread of deadly disease and virus. Protecting animals directly effects humans. So yes, animal rights are human rights.

Hotblack Desiato

beejee wrote: »

Yes, as it does in reality.

If "foreigners" have factually introduced diseases to "non-foreigners" time and time again throughout human history, and then some may state that fact during a non-indigenous disease outbreak... How in the name of molasses does that equal "racist trope" in your spacious skull?

Please dig yourself into a hole for my amusement, I'm bored.

To add: is "trope" simply a synonym for "historically accurate"? But even then, where does racism figure into it?

If you don't know what a word means, you can always look it up.

So did "foreigners" bring coronavirus into Ireland, or was it mostly Irish people coming home? It's as likely to be one as the other - in fact, given it was spreading in northern Italy where lots of Irish people were on ski trips, it's much more likely to be Irish people.
In a globalised world, blaming foreigners makes no sense whatsoever, and pulling up the metaphorical drawbridge doesn't work.

Airyfairy12

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Aids originated from people eating monkey meat as did Ebola, brings me back to my point of eating wild animals and the consequences of countries not having animal rights. I dont know why youre so fixated on my mentioning of where certain viruses have spread from? It didnt come from Mexico. Its not racist to state facts or name a country.

I didn't mention racism. I do query the finger pointing at China though. And the spread for AIDS, and Covid are still suspected as being transmitted from meat... it hasn't been proven yet. And scientists don't know where Ebola comes from... Theories point to the eating of meat.. including pig meat, but they're still theories, and unproven.

As for animal rights... nah. It just seems absolute rubbish to me. Encouraging people to not eat certain animals/species due to the risks involved, sure. I can get behind that easily enough... but this animal rights stuff you're pushing? Nope.

How can governments implement better animal rights? The same way they have in any other country that has animal rights. Ban the wet markets, ban animal testing and crack down on wild animals being sold on the black market. Increase animal rescue facilities and funding towards animal rights.

Sure. No problem with any of that... although I do wonder what you're going to replace wet markets with, since governments have tried doing removing them before, and the poor people just bring them back in again.

The horrific treatment of animals is directly effecting us through the spread of deadly disease and virus. Protecting animals directly effects humans. So yes, animal rights are human rights.

Nope. Animals have no rights.