Rent Freeze - the mechanics of

beauf

Roberto_gas wrote: »

I would not do that do be honest....LL has been awesome so far....happy with increase even if they tell me otherwise

Out of curiosity. If you are happy with the increase regardless, why were you ringing the PRTB?

Graham

Mod Note

beauf, quit the trolling.

Do not reply to this post.

Pete123456

I confirmed with RTB this morning, notified letting agent and got confirmation by email, all good. Thanks all

beauf

Dav010 wrote: »

Can you imagine the situation where at the end of the tenancy, the tenant owes the equivalent of 4 months rent, I wonder how many will just walk away. It’s nearly impossible for a LL to get rent arrears as it is.

This thread is the mechanics of the rent freeze.

Successive Govt have failed to put in fair and balanced regulation to control and support the rental market.
They've used it as a political football, and kicked the can down the road. They've done the same here again.
Though this you can hardly blame them. Flattening the curve is the only game in town.

But the LL is no different to any other small business that has to shut down for this crisis and is doing whatever it can to keep the lights on.
So it can restart after the crisis. But there is no doubt this is going to lead an avalanche of mortgage defaults, arrears, etc.
Its also going to have (a tiny %) of both landlords and tenants taking advantage.

People need to be looking what happens in 4~6 months time. Planning that now.

As for the rent freeze, I don't think the long term is really been considered.
They will be months if not a year or more untangling the fallout from this.

Roberto_gas

Contacted LL and they were more than happy to park the rent increase....they also said to stay safe ! Not all landlords are bad !

It would be worth checking with them in case you are due a rent increase and have been given the notice before all this started.

Dunston

I have a tenant who has asked for help because he has moved home and will therefore be paying double rent for a period of time. Not sure why he would be paying rent at home but that's the story. He hasn't lost his job, he can work from home. His rent is due tomorrow. Any advice?

housetypeb

Dunston wrote: »

I have a tenant who has asked for help because he has moved home and will therefore be paying double rent for a period of time. Not sure why he would be paying rent at home but that's the story. He hasn't lost his job, he can work from home. His rent is due tomorrow. Any advice?

He made the decision to double rent, then made it your problem, nice.
That would make me cast a very cold eye on my options here.

jrosen

Dunston wrote: »

I have a tenant who has asked for help because he has moved home and will therefore be paying double rent for a period of time. Not sure why he would be paying rent at home but that's the story. He hasn't lost his job, he can work from home. His rent is due tomorrow. Any advice?

Moved home to his parents house? If so then why is helping him out financially your problem and not his parents?

dogbert27

Dunston wrote: »

I have a tenant who has asked for help because he has moved home and will therefore be paying double rent for a period of time. Not sure why he would be paying rent at home but that's the story. He hasn't lost his job, he can work from home. His rent is due tomorrow. Any advice?

When did he contact you?

When did he move home?

His rent is due tomorrow so I would assume he had the money ready to pay.

Is he saying his parents are going to charge him the same rent that he's paying you?

Will he expect you to pay for his electricity bills because his parents will expect him to pay for the electricity there too?

He's taking the piss really.

Tell him with this late notice you expect the rent paid in full tomorrow and you are open to discussing next months rent when he can provide you with more details so that you can make an informed decision.

Antares35

Dunston wrote: »

I have a tenant who has asked for help because he has moved home and will therefore be paying double rent for a period of time. Not sure why he would be paying rent at home but that's the story. He hasn't lost his job, he can work from home. His rent is due tomorrow. Any advice?

I pay rent at home. It's not that unusual.

That said, I wouldn't expect to retain a tenancy anywhere for free just because I chose to do that. It's not like he is asking for help because he has no rent money coming in, but because he has decided to direct it elsewhere. I'd tell him where to go TBH!

Dunston

dogbert27 wrote: »

When did he contact you?

When did he move home?

His rent is due tomorrow so I would assume he had the money ready to pay.

Is he saying his parents are going to charge him the same rent that he's paying you?

Will he expect you to pay for his electricity bills because his parents will expect him to pay for the electricity there too?

He's taking the piss really.

Tell him with this late notice you expect the rent paid in full tomorrow and you are open to discussing next months rent when he can provide you with more details so that you can make an informed decision.

He contacted me yesterday and rent is due tomorrow. I agreed to lower it slightly starting tomorrow as he has been a decent tenant although I know I didnt need to offer this. Told him we would review it again next month. Didnt go into details about rent he is paying at home.

dogbert27

Dunston wrote: »

He contacted me yesterday and rent is due tomorrow. I agreed to lower it slightly starting tomorrow as he has been a decent tenant although I know I didnt need to offer this. Told him we would review it again next month. Didnt go into details about rent he is paying at home.

If he only informed you yesterday then it is too little notice.

If he's moved home to his parents and they are charging him rent in these times then they are tougher landlords than you are!! :pac:

I would expect him to pay his rent in full tomorrow. He should be asking his parents to pay them less or nothing at all.

You have a contract with him, they do not.

dogbert27

dogbert27 wrote: »

Got contacted by tenants looking for leniency on payment of rent next week as both their jobs have been put on hold for a few weeks.

I could be the charitable member of society and say of course lets make a plan so they pay less rent and I have to give more of my personal income to cover the mortgage payment on the property until they say they can begin paying the rent in full again.

Or

I could be a business man and say:

1. As the rent is due in less than 7 days I would have assumed you had the money already in place to make this payment
2. Please both provide letters from your employers stating that your positions have been put on hold without pay for a duration, with the duration made.
3. Are they applying for the COVID-19 unemployment payment of €350 a week each which will give them €700 a week which is nearly the months rent.
4. They've been renting for a few years to save to buy their own house. Can they not use their savings to pay their bills?

Just to update my own situation I took the second option.

I said I'm open to discussing leniency but can they do a review first of their situation with the points above.

They came back to me a few days later and said they can pay the rent in full.

handlemaster

Dunston wrote: »

I have a tenant who has asked for help because he has moved home and will therefore be paying double rent for a period of time. Not sure why he would be paying rent at home but that's the story. He hasn't lost his job, he can work from home. His rent is due tomorrow. Any advice?

Not your issue. But the tenant is asking you to.pay..

joemac

Hi all, bit of issue with tenant also, they emailed mid March to say their work had temporarily finished up and asked if I could freeze the rent, I said I'll look into it and get back to them which I did, told them that we wouldn't be freezing the mortgage as it would still have to be paid and maybe more with extra interest. Tenant said they were applying for covid payment, we left it that they would pay what they could, I taught it wouldn't be too bad especially as they had full time work/pay for half the month, received rent this month on time but just a third of total, personally think it's a bit cheeky especially as we continue to pay full mortgage as well as our own personal bills.
Question is where do we stand, if it continues next month we will be tight ourselves both our incomes down to less then half, should we send them notification of arrears. As I understand they can play this game for three months before we can do anything and another three months after that before anything can take effect (their nine months in property) p.s we hope it doesn't come to this and we're prepared to work with them but signs aren't good, thanks

dogbert27

joemac wrote: »

Hi all, bit of issue with tenant also, they emailed mid March to say their work had temporarily finished up and asked if I could freeze the rent, I said I'll look into it and get back to them which I did, told them that we wouldn't be freezing the mortgage as it would still have to be paid and maybe more with extra interest. Tenant said they were applying for covid payment, we left it that they would pay what they could, I taught it wouldn't be too bad especially as they had full time work/pay for half the month, received rent this month on time but just a third of total, personally think it's a bit cheeky especially as we continue to pay full mortgage as well as our own personal bills.
Question is where do we stand, if it continues next month we will be tight ourselves both our incomes down to less then half, should we send them notification of arrears. As I understand they can play this game for three months before we can do anything and another three months after that before anything can take effect (their nine months in property) p.s we hope it doesn't come to this and we're prepared to work with them but signs aren't good, thanks

Are you dealing with them directly or are you using an agent?

From what I highlighted above you kind of left it up to them what they wanted to pay which, I'm sorry, is a bit naive.

You should contact them in writing with registered mail.

Ask for both to please provide letters from your employers stating that their work positions

Ask for confirmation that they have applied for the COVID payment. If there are two of them applying for the COVID-19 unemployment payment of €350 a week each which is €2800 a month. Unless their rent is in excess of €1,500 the COVID payment should be more than enough to pay their rent and other bills.

Inform that you have to make up the shortfall of their rent payment with your own personal income therefore in the interest of fairness the shortfall in this months rent will be made up in future rent payments, say €100 extra a month for example for the next 6 months until everything is balanced out.

Tenants and landlords have to be fair with each other in these times.

lomb

joemac wrote: »

Hi all, bit of issue with tenant also, they emailed mid March to say their work had temporarily finished up and asked if I could freeze the rent, I said I'll look into it and get back to them which I did, told them that we wouldn't be freezing the mortgage as it would still have to be paid and maybe more with extra interest. Tenant said they were applying for covid payment, we left it that they would pay what they could, I taught it wouldn't be too bad especially as they had full time work/pay for half the month, received rent this month on time but just a third of total, personally think it's a bit cheeky especially as we continue to pay full mortgage as well as our own personal bills.
Question is where do we stand, if it continues next month we will be tight ourselves both our incomes down to less then half, should we send them notification of arrears. As I understand they can play this game for three months before we can do anything and another three months after that before anything can take effect (their nine months in property) p.s we hope it doesn't come to this and we're prepared to work with them but signs aren't good, thanks

What jobs do they do?

Fol20

dogbert27 wrote: »

Are you dealing with them directly or are you using an agent?

From what I highlighted above you kind of left it up to them what they wanted to pay which, I'm sorry, is a bit naive.

You should contact them in writing with registered mail.

Ask for both to please provide letters from your employers stating that their work positions

Ask for confirmation that they have applied for the COVID payment. If there are two of them applying for the COVID-19 unemployment payment of €350 a week each which is €2800 a month. Unless their rent is in excess of €1,500 the COVID payment should be more than enough to pay their rent and other bills.

Inform that you have to make up the shortfall of their rent payment with your own personal income therefore in the interest of fairness the shortfall in this months rent will be made up in future rent payments, say €100 extra a month for example for the next 6 months until everything is balanced out.

Tenants and landlords have to be fair with each other in these times.

You cannot do that as it would be seen as a rent increase.

All you can do is after the 3 months. Issue a rent arrears notice. Wait 14 days and start the termination notice.

Graham

Not a legal opinion but I really don't see how payment of arrears would be seen as a rent increase.

dogbert27

Fol20 wrote: »

You cannot do that as it would be seen as a rent increase.

All you can do is after the 3 months. Issue a rent arrears notice. Wait 14 days and start the termination notice.

If a landlord cannot ask for future increased payments to make up a short fall in rent payments then tenants should not be asking landlords for rent decreases.

It goes both ways.

And it is not a rent increase as you are trying to highlight it as. It is a repayment of a deferral of rent payment.

This can be agreed between the landlord and the tenant.

Fol20

dogbert27 wrote: »

If a landlord cannot ask for future increased payments to make up a short fall in rent payments then tenants should not be asking landlords for rent decreases.

It goes both ways.

And it is not a rent increase as you are trying to highlight it as. It is a repayment of a deferral of rent payment.

This can be agreed between the landlord and the tenant.

Sorry maybe i didnt explain myself properly, let me give an example. Lets say rent was 1k. and for 3 months, they gave you 250. This means they owe you 2250.

After the 3 months in the current environment you can start the termination notice or the most pragmatic approach will be to up to their rent temporarily to 11/1200 until the debt is paid.

In my above comment i meant that you cant add another 100 for the hassle or admin work you endured during this period as this aspect would be construed as a rent increase.

i might have miss read your original post on this and thought it was going to be a rent increase however now re reading it, i think you just meant to pay for the money owed.

JimmyVik

joemac wrote: »

Hi all, bit of issue with tenant also, they emailed mid March to say their work had temporarily finished up and asked if I could freeze the rent, I said I'll look into it and get back to them which I did, told them that we wouldn't be freezing the mortgage as it would still have to be paid and maybe more with extra interest. Tenant said they were applying for covid payment, we left it that they would pay what they could, I taught it wouldn't be too bad especially as they had full time work/pay for half the month, received rent this month on time but just a third of total, personally think it's a bit cheeky especially as we continue to pay full mortgage as well as our own personal bills.
Question is where do we stand, if it continues next month we will be tight ourselves both our incomes down to less then half, should we send them notification of arrears. As I understand they can play this game for three months before we can do anything and another three months after that before anything can take effect (their nine months in property) p.s we hope it doesn't come to this and we're prepared to work with them but signs aren't good, thanks

There is a strong possibility this will be extended by another 3 months after the original 3 months expire.

Jo Satan

By the sounds of it most landlords expect their rent to be paid in full regardless of their tenants ability to pay.
This is to be achieved by taking a significant percentage of the covid-19 payment, or expecting rent arrears to be paid when society returns to normal...

This crisis is going to take a long time to resolve itself.
"flattening the curve" will enable the Health Service to save lives but it will draw out the time it takes for the pandemic to end.
I would say one to two years before a vaccine is developed or herd immunity takes effect.

I would advise any LL to take a pragmatic approach to this situation.
You should contact your tenants and discover their situation.
You should negotiate a fair rent and keep communication open.

A significant number of peoples backs are up against a wall and if the rent is not affordable a tenant will just cease payments.
They cannot be evicted for the duration of the crisis and I believe the eviction process will be long and arduous in the aftermath of the pandemic.
You cannot expect to come out of this current economic situation financially unscathed.

If you are mortgage free suck it up, you have been creaming it for years.
Reduced income is a fact of life these days.

If you are highly leveraged, you are in a high risk business.
Your business plan was to use other peoples income to pay for a property to finance your retirement / supplement your income as rents exceed mortgage payments in due course.
Plenty of businesses will fail as a result of this crisis, landlords will be one cohort of many.

If in the coming months you are without rental income and your interest is piling up.
I would seriously consider sending the keys back to the bank and starting insolvency proceedings.
Because when this is over you will not be able to charge €2800pm plus for a 4 bed house in a working class neighbourhood in Dublin and you will not be able to sell it for €350k.

mgn

Jo Satan wrote: »

By the sounds of it most landlords expect their rent to be paid in full regardless of their tenants ability to pay.
This is to be achieved by taking a significant percentage of the covid-19 payment, or expecting rent arrears to be paid when society returns to normal...

This crisis is going to take a long time to resolve itself.
"flattening the curve" will enable the Health Service to save lives but it will draw out the time it takes for the pandemic to end.
I would say one to two years before a vaccine is developed or herd immunity takes effect.

I would advise any LL to take a pragmatic approach to this situation.
You should contact your tenants and discover their situation.
You should negotiate a fair rent and keep communication open.

A significant number of peoples backs are up against a wall and if the rent is not affordable a tenant will just cease payments.
They cannot be evicted for the duration of the crisis and I believe the eviction process will be long and arduous in the aftermath of the pandemic.
You cannot expect to come out of this current economic situation financially unscathed.

If you are mortgage free suck it up, you have been creaming it for years.
Reduced income is a fact of life these days.

If you are highly leveraged, you are in a high risk business.
Your business plan was to use other peoples income to pay for a property to finance your retirement / supplement your income as rents exceed mortgage payments in due course.
Plenty of businesses will fail as a result of this crisis, landlords will be one cohort of many.

If in the coming months you are without rental income and your interest is piling up.
I would seriously consider sending the keys back to the bank and starting insolvency proceedings.
Because when this is over you will not be able to charge €2800pm plus for a 4 bed house in a working class neighbourhood in Dublin and you will not be able to sell it for €350k.

Great advice with other peoples money and property,

Fol20

Jo Satan wrote: »

By the sounds of it most landlords expect their rent to be paid in full regardless of their tenants ability to pay.
This is to be achieved by taking a significant percentage of the covid-19 payment, or expecting rent arrears to be paid when society returns to normal...

This crisis is going to take a long time to resolve itself.
"flattening the curve" will enable the Health Service to save lives but it will draw out the time it takes for the pandemic to end.
I would say one to two years before a vaccine is developed or herd immunity takes effect.

I would advise any LL to take a pragmatic approach to this situation.
You should contact your tenants and discover their situation.
You should negotiate a fair rent and keep communication open.

A significant number of peoples backs are up against a wall and if the rent is not affordable a tenant will just cease payments.
They cannot be evicted for the duration of the crisis and I believe the eviction process will be long and arduous in the aftermath of the pandemic.
You cannot expect to come out of this current economic situation financially unscathed.

If you are mortgage free suck it up, you have been creaming it for years.
Reduced income is a fact of life these days.

If you are highly leveraged, you are in a high risk business.
Your business plan was to use other peoples income to pay for a property to finance your retirement / supplement your income as rents exceed mortgage payments in due course.
Plenty of businesses will fail as a result of this crisis, landlords will be one cohort of many.

If in the coming months you are without rental income and your interest is piling up.
I would seriously consider sending the keys back to the bank and starting insolvency proceedings.
Because when this is over you will not be able to charge €2800pm plus for a 4 bed house in a working class neighbourhood in Dublin and you will not be able to sell it for €350k.

I love the way you can tell ll to do x and y with their money as long as it doesnt hurt the ll. The ll doesnt care about your situation, all they care about is that they are providing a service to you and that you pay the agreed amount. Yes you might not be able to evict now but that will happen in the future after this covid issue is sorted.

The ll doesnt have a get out jail free card here. If the ll gets a pay break, it doesnt mean the amount they were meant to pay is forgotten about. They will need to pay it back at a later date as should the tenant.

"""
If you are mortgage free suck it up, you have been creaming it for years.
Reduced income is a fact of life these days."""
> Love this comment, it shows a lack of knowledge in how taxation works among other things and the fact they have so much money in one asset where risk vs reward should be identified. If someones salary has increased for the past 5 years, do you think an employer would say, youve been creaming it, suck it up and take the decrease.

Its nymbyism as its best.

LL should be pragmatic but at the end of the day, as long as the follow the law and right now, tenants will be evicted if they do not pay up the full amount after this issue is sorted, then stop with your fair rent stuff.

JimmyVik

I was reading somewhere else some landlords saying they are glad that they took 3 months deposit when they did.
I guess they were protecting their interests.

3 months deposit might become standard now when all this shakes out.
I am assuming it will still be a landlords market by then.

beauf

Jo Satan wrote: »

By the sounds of it most landlords expect their rent to be paid in full regardless of their tenants ability to pay.
...

I expect for a large number this will will their first time having to deal with bad debts.

While agree with you, people have to adjust to a new reality and take a long term view, if its a long term investment.

But I don't see how someone can be "creaming it for years" and also insolvent after only a few weeks, to the extent that need to fire-sale their assets now.

Also there is no legislation that helps a LL work with a tenants to create a sustainable approach. The only suggestion thus far, is the LL pays for it all.

But they mishandled the NCT saga the same way. Expect the same for the housing crisis.

efanton

For those of you wanting to know exactly how they stand whether you be tenant or landlord you will find this link useful

https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/images/uploads/general/COVID_Update_Guidance_Document_final.pdf

Jo Satan is absolutely correct in stating that landlords will expect payment in full.
Tenants are obliged to continue to pay rent during the COVID-19 emergency period. Rent hikes and eviction are banned during the crisis, but that will immediately change once the government removes restrictions.

Tenants unable to pay their rents should engage with their landlords and the Department of Employment and Social Protection at their earliest opportunity.
Leaving debts pile up will not end well.

Income supports and Rent Supplement are available for those struggling with
payments.

Zulu

beauf wrote: »

But I don't see how someone can be "creaming it for years" and also insolvent after only a few weeks,....

Who's been "creaming it for years"? Or is that your own quote?

Claw Hammer

beauf wrote: »

But they mishandled the NCT saga the same way. Expect the same for the housing crisis.

What is/was the NCT saga?