COVID-19: Vaccine/antidote and testing procedures Megathread [Mod Warning - Post #1]

is_that_so

seanb85 wrote: »

You'd hope there'd already be a plan in place, I'd presume it'll be very vulnerable/high risk together with healthcare workers first. Then high risk and some other key workers (Gardai, the Army, Teachers, perhaps the food industry), then schoolkids, and then everybody else.

I think gen pop might be up to six months after the high risk categories. End of next year even for an early vaccine is more realistic.

seanb85

is_that_so wrote: »

I think gen pop might be up to six months after the high risk categories. End of next year even for an early vaccine is more realistic.

I wouldn't disagree. Even in a very optimistic scenario of emergency use approval for one or more by November it will take a significant amount of time to get to more than 50% of the population.

Coillte_Bhoy

AdamD wrote: »

Working for the NHS doesn't mean you're not an idiot

Indeed, and a quick look at her twitter tells you me all i need to know :pac:

hmmm

You have a right to your own bodily integrity. You have no right to put other people at risk. If the time comes, those who refuse to take a vaccination will have to be cocooned to protect everyone else, perhaps with designated shopping hours, work from home etc.

In better news, encouraging results from a small trial of Aviptadil:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3665228

Note that "Conflict of Interest: Author JCJ is employed bya pharmaceutical company that is currently conducting clinical trials of RLF-100in patients with COVID-19 and has a financial interest in the outcome of those clinical trials."

I believe there is much larger studies of this particular drug taking place.

3xh

JDD wrote: »

I will strongly support you. The one thing you own, completely, is your own body. No one should ever be forced to take a vaccine, or any other treatment for that matter, by law.

However, the consensus is that people who refuse the vaccine will be increasing the risk for all of us. As well as costing money to treat in hospital. So I say that after a reasonable amount of time after a vaccine is released - say 12 months - you should have to wear a leg tag. You will beep when you enter shops, public transport or indoor areas, and it will mean a small fine if you don't wear a mask. A small inconvenience. And you will not be able to get treatment for coronavirus through the public system. Happy to let you pay for it privately though.

That way you get to keep your bodily integrity, and we get protected from you.

So will you get the vaccine for diphtheria, hep B and polio next year while you're at it? No, you'll only get the brand new covid vaccine because it's all we've heard about the past 6 months. Who decides what we hear and see each day? Ourselves?

Your tag solution, however meaningful, is unworkable also. If the tag beeps, who do I pay? You're not suggesting it's linked to my bank account? And if you actually are, how do I tell the tag I've put my mask on? Take a selfie and send it into some new Government Dept. set up to deal with fines/refunds? So, what's the cost benefit analysis of all this?

Keep it simple: Support the provision of a rapidly created vaccine to those who are happy to accept it and support those who don't want it.

seanb85

seanb85 wrote: »

It's very disappointing that this thread is being derailed.

It was meant to be a discussion on what is in development and where they are at in terms of results.

The closer we actually are to getting to a vaccine, the more your going to see that.

LessOutragePlz

DubInMeath wrote: »

The closer we actually are to getting to a vaccine, the more your going to see that.

I think a discussion about mandatory vaccines is a legitimate one given that it is being considered in some countries at the moment and shutting down the discussion of that isn't a good idea IMO but, of course people will scream "anti vaxxer" the second someone suggests that they are against mandatory vaccinations. They will all be tarred with the same brush.

Hmmzis

hmmm wrote: »

You have a right to your own bodily integrity. You have no right to put other people at risk. If the time comes, those who refuse to take a vaccination will have to be cocooned to protect everyone else, perhaps with designated shopping hours, work from home etc.

In better news, encouraging results from a small trial of Aviptadil:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3665228

Note that "Conflict of Interest: Author JCJ is employed bya pharmaceutical company that is currently conducting clinical trials of RLF-100in patients with COVID-19 and has a financial interest in the outcome of those clinical trials."

I believe there is much larger studies of this particular drug taking place.

Commercial interests or not, it's very hard to argue with those sort of clinical indicators. If that was their whole treatment group, it's nothing short of spectacular results. Especially keeping in mind that all of the 21 were in critical condition in ICU and 6 were already on ECMO (very few come off of that and live to tell the tale).

This needs to go in a bigger trial and into pre ICU patients to see if it keeps them from going critical.

hmmm

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/08/20/more-pfizer-biontech-data-on-their-actual-vaccine-candidate

" There are so many different platforms in trials now, each with their differences, and we will be getting piles of data in rapid succession from trials of tens of thousands of people all over the world. No one would have ever set up such a gigantic experimental landscape under non-emergency conditions; from the clinical perspective it’s an unprecedented immunological Woodstock.

And we’re going to have to get prepared for it. There are several believable outcomes (good, bad, and just plain mixed) that I don’t think that the general public has anticipated, and those will be the subject of a coming post!"

Hmmzis

hmmm wrote: »

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/08/20/more-pfizer-biontech-data-on-their-actual-vaccine-candidate

" There are so many different platforms in trials now, each with their differences, and we will be getting piles of data in rapid succession from trials of tens of thousands of people all over the world. No one would have ever set up such a gigantic experimental landscape under non-emergency conditions; from the clinical perspective it’s an unprecedented immunological Woodstock.

And we’re going to have to get prepared for it. There are several believable outcomes (good, bad, and just plain mixed) that I don’t think that the general public has anticipated, and those will be the subject of a coming post!"

Here is the paper if anyone for some bizarre reason would want to skip Derek's comments on it.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.08.17.20176651v1.full.pdf

While the adverse events are clearly far less than in the b1 verison, I think another factor for choosing the b2 might have been the nAB titers in the b2 version looking a little bit better in the >65yo group.

yosemitesam1

Hmmzis wrote: »

Sorry, fixed the link.

Any and every virus needs living cells to replicate, I think you are mistaking a secreted substance (mucous) with the cell lining called the mucousal membrane.

Each and every respiratory virus can and does survive in the mucous, otherwise it wouldn't much of a respiratory virus and they all infect cells in the mucousal membranes (epithelial cells) in the various cavities of our bodies where they are present.

No, I'm not mistaking mucous for mucousal membranes.
Coronavirus can infect and replicate within macrophages present in mucous. So it's not actually going to necessarily set off an immune response or be cleared by blood antibodies before it is spread.
That isn't possible for flu viruses. To infect someone, flu viruses have to make it through the mucous into the mucosal membrane cells.

Russman

Apologies if this has been covered or is unanswerable, but how soon are the Phase 3 results expected ?
Would the teams, like say, Oxford, privately have seen indicators already, albeit from incomplete data, where they might “know” if it works or not even though they have to wait another few months ?

Hmmzis

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

No, I'm not mistaking mucous for mucousal membranes.
Coronavirus can infect and replicate within macrophages present in mucous. So it's not actually going to necessarily set off an immune response or be cleared by blood antibodies before it is spread.
That isn't possible for flu viruses. To infect someone, flu viruses have to make it through the mucous into the mucosal membrane cells.

Could you please link to the paper describing this mechanism? I've seen some about SARS, but I'm coming up empty for SARS2.

yosemitesam1

Hmmzis wrote: »

Could you please link to the paper describing this mechanism? I've seen some about SARS, but I'm coming up empty for SARS2.

I don't know if the research has been carried out specifically on sars2.
There's this
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.01312/full

But using macrophages to replicate is common across a lot of coronavirus strains and without evidence to say otherwise I would assume that as it's been so successful at spreading, sars2 also targets macrophages as a mechanism for surviving/spreading through the population.

eleventh

Interesting looking film here on Vaccine injury
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11137248/

Hmmzis

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

I don't know if the research has been carried out specifically on sars2.
There's this
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.01312/full

But using macrophages to replicate is common across a lot of coronavirus strains and without evidence to say otherwise I would assume that as it's been so successful at spreading, sars2 also targets macrophages as a mechanism for surviving/spreading through the population.

Thanks for the link, it's an interesting hypothesis they are proposing. The thing is, it's a theoretical exercise, and even they acknowledge in the paper that there is a lack of empirical evidence for what they are proposing. There are two citations in this paper that find that macrophages can be entered by SARS-cov, but the infection those cells is abortive. This means that the cels get killed, but no viral replication happens in them.

I do sort of recall a study from April where a group tried to do an in vitro experiment with SARS-cov-2 and lymphocytes. In their assay the virions were able to enter the cells, but were not able to replicate in them. Subsequently the paper was retracted as it turned out the cell culture they used was of the wrong type or something along those lines.

As to IgG and immunoglobulins in general, they don't just live in the serum. There is IgA, that is the main mucosal type and IgG is sort of everywhere, like IgM, but is longer lived. All are produced by B cells in more or less similar amounts.

I found this article quite informative about the Ig types:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3064559/

The curious bit is that the intestinal tract doesn't have any appreciable amounts of IgG.

Hmmzis

Russman wrote: »

Apologies if this has been covered or is unanswerable, but how soon are the Phase 3 results expected ?
Would the teams, like say, Oxford, privately have seen indicators already, albeit from incomplete data, where they might “know” if it works or not even though they have to wait another few months ?

The hope for Oxford is September, but it all depends on how quickly the infections accumulate in the respective groups.

And no, the researchers would not know anything at this point. There is a separate panel of people who monitor the infection data coming in. Once they get to the required number of infections, they unblind the results to see what the distribution is between the placebo and vaccine groups.

Herb Powell

eleventh wrote: »

Interesting looking film here on Vaccine injury
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11137248/

Interesting use of the word "interesting"

Sconsey

eleventh wrote: »

Interesting looking film here on Vaccine injury
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11137248/

Jesus that horseh1t should be banned under public safety laws. Just read the user review on IMDB. The user claims they were happily getting vaccinated as per medical advice but after watching this film they did their own research (Google? Facebook?) and decided they knew better than the worldwide scientific and medical expertise. They are now bragging about not vaccinating their kids. Morons. Absolute morons.

eleventh

Sconsey wrote: »

Jesus that horseh1t should be banned under public safety laws. Just read the user review on IMDB. The user claims they were happily getting vaccinated as per medical advice but after watching this film they did their own research (Google? Facebook?) and decided they knew better than the worldwide scientific and medical expertise. They are now bragging about not vaccinating their kids. Morons. Absolute morons.

The outrage seems a bit misplaced. The chances of anyone stopping you from vaccinating your kids and yourself, as much as you want, now or in the future, is zero.

And you can relax completely because they'll be upping the marketing of vaccination and promoting it heavily soon enough. You won't even have to pay for it. They may even call around door to door, because they are such caring people.

My post was really for anyone who is interested in health, which doesn't seem to be many on this thread, but nonetheless worth posting for the small minority of passersby who might be interested in human health (as opposed to what the medical/pharmaceutical industry is selling today).

hmmm

Like hmmzis says above, the vaccine candidate Pfizer choose had far fewer side effects for older people. Good thread below.

I think Pfizer is going to win the race with Moderna. Just much more experience, moving fast.

https://twitter.com/LucyWalkerlab/status/1296851101564768256

hmmm

J&J are going to test up to 60,000 people with their vaccine. 60,000!

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/20/coronavirus-johnson-johnson-to-start-vaccine-trial-in-september-with-60000-people.html

hmmm

EU signs deal with Curevac. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_1494

This is 4 vaccines the EU has now pre-purchased, and they (we) are spreading their investment across multiple technologies to have the best chance of success.

Greece hopes to have first doses in December:
https://www.euronews.com/2020/08/18/coronavirus-latest-greece-hopes-to-have-vaccine-by-december

hmmm

hmmm wrote: »

J&J are going to test up to 60,000 people with their vaccine. 60,000!

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/20/coronavirus-johnson-johnson-to-start-vaccine-trial-in-september-with-60000-people.html

Russia tested 38 so they are first

timsey tiger

eleventh wrote: »

The outrage seems a bit misplaced.

The outrage is not misplaced, we still had over 140,000 children die from measles in 2018 not to mention those left with life altering debilations.

A disease with a safe vaccine that meant we could see a path to eliminating it before we eliminate the sale of desiel cars.

But thanks to the lies spread by you and your ilk, millions of children will be condemned to taking their chances with measles and other preventable diseases.

eleventh

An earlier post

eleventh wrote: »

Exactly. I got every vaccine as a child as well as booster injections.
Still got all the diseases - measles, german measles, mumps, chickenpox etc.

My immune system was in bits as a child and I got all the vaccines and all the boosters. I got every disease going - as did all the kids around me who all got their vaccinations as well.
I was off school a week or more at a time with measles, whooping cough and all the diseases that pharma propagandists like yourself would have us believe are prevented by injecting vaccines.

timsey tiger

eleventh wrote: »

An earlier post
My immune system was in bits as a child and I got all the vaccines and all the boosters. I got every disease going - as did all the kids around me who all got their vaccinations as well.
I was off school a week or more at a time with measles, whooping cough and all the diseases that pharma propagandists like yourself would have us believe are prevented by injecting vaccines.

So, if all this is true, you would have benefited from the herd immunity the MMR would have provided but didn't because of the lies you are now helping propagate.

Gael23

hmmm wrote: »

EU signs deal with Curevac. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_1494

This is 4 vaccines the EU has now pre-purchased, and they (we) are spreading their investment across multiple technologies to have the best chance of success.

Greece hopes to have first doses in December:
https://www.euronews.com/2020/08/18/coronavirus-latest-greece-hopes-to-have-vaccine-by-december

What volume of vaccines are in this deal.
I hope they are actually for us and not all for donations

Hmmzis

hmmm wrote: »

J&J are going to test up to 60,000 people with their vaccine. 60,000!

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/20/coronavirus-johnson-johnson-to-start-vaccine-trial-in-september-with-60000-people.html

According to the article, they can make 600-900 million doses by April. If they have started production now, that means around 70-100 million doses per month or around the 1 billion mark per year. Since their shot might be a single dose affair, that's very respectable numbers. They might actually be able to match AstraZeneca when it comes to number of people treated.

Gael23

Hmmzis wrote: »

According to the article, they can make 600-900 million doses by April. If they have started production now, that means around 70-100 million doses per month or around the 1 billion mark per year. Since their shot might be a single dose affair, that's very respectable numbers. They might actually be able to match AstraZeneca when it comes to number of people treated.

How many will the EU actually use rather than give away t developing countries?