COVID-19: Vaccine/antidote and testing procedures Megathread [Mod Warning - Post #1]

stephenjmcd

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

No they dont.

It would be silly to say we are going to vaccinate the elderly first then 2 weeks later the final results come out of phase 3 for a vaccine and it doesn't work on older people so large have a change of plans.

Let them plan. We dont need weekly updates on the planning.

Weekly im not sure about. Regular updates absolutely, perhaps every 2-3 weeks.

Watching the British update this morning showed exactly how it should be communicated.

funnydoggy

Although yeah, even every 2 weeks. Just as long as it isn't misery and "here's why this isn't cause for celebration" every time.

Deenie78

I think the problem with giving overly regularly updates (in the earlier stages of planning at least) is that it might cause confusion or distrust if they have to go back a step or revise their plans based on how things are progressing?

(not a regular poster, but an avid follower of the thread)

stephenjmcd

Deenie78 wrote: »

I think the problem with giving overly regularly updates (in the earlier stages of planning at least) is that it might cause confusion or distrust if they have to go back a step or revise their plans based on how things are progressing?

(not a regular poster, but an avid follower of the thread)

I think the best way might be something like you suggest. Every few weeks, here is where we are with planning, centres will be in x,y,z locations etc starting with this bracket of people. Then every maybe 2-3 weeks, x amount of vaccinations completed, next bracket to begin on y date.

Something like that might be good

ixoy

Deenie78 wrote: »

I think the problem with giving overly regularly updates (in the earlier stages of planning at least) is that it might cause confusion or distrust if they have to go back a step or revise their plans based on how things are progressing?

I'd tentatively agree with it being somewhat unnecessary in the early days. To start with though, maybe a roadmap even if it's to get targets for when the committee will be formed, first draft of the plan, etc and if they're sticking to it.

Importantly, I hope there's some cooperation amongst EU members here. The problems here won't be uniquely Irish. We all can, and should, collaborate - logistics of distribution to GPs is a challenge faced equally in Belgium as Ireland. Challenges of cold storage, and purchase of equipment for example, are something all might face to some level or another.

Gael23

What’s our quota of the Pfizer vaccine, about 1%?

is_that_so

Apparently there will be a taskforce to oversee the vaccine rollout.

Taoiseach Micheál Martin has told the Dáil that a high-level taskforce has been created by the Government to oversee the roll-out of Covid-19 vaccines in Ireland once they are approved by the statutory authorities.

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/1111/1177367-coronavirus-ireland/

normanoffside

Deenie78 wrote: »

I think the problem with giving overly regularly updates (in the earlier stages of planning at least) is that it might cause confusion or distrust if they have to go back a step or revise their plans based on how things are progressing?

(not a regular poster, but an avid follower of the thread)

They should have their plans in place already. It's not like arrival of a vaccine might be a complete surprise.

This is the same sort of shambles as the PPE back in March/April, trying to get it when it was already needed immediately.

Meanwhile the Germans had already been planning for months before and had everything ready, much like their vaccination plans now.

tobefrank321

Cordell wrote: »

Russian vaccine reported as 92% because of course, it's Russian and it has to be better.

That appears to be it.

If Pfizer said it was 80% effective, the Russian one would be 82% effective. Careful to say its more effective but within credible limits.

Anyways they had a small trial sample. The smaller the sample, the less accurate.

I hope the vaccine works for the Russians, but we've all become conditioned to taking anything the Russians say with a large pinch of salt.

To be clear, should we not refer to the BioNtech vaccine in association with Pfizer. BioNtech being too small to scale the vaccine to the necessary quantities, but very much the developers of this.

Interestingly their share price has gone from $30 pre pandemic to $112 today. Pfizer have gone from $39 in January to $39 today

tobefrank321

Whatever about the Irish government giving weekly updates to the general public, if they aren't giving weekly updates to nursing homes about vaccine preparations, that's far worse.

I expect in the next week or two to see nursing home owners on the airwaves complaining about being in the dark about vaccine rollout.

stephenjmcd

[Deleted User] wrote: »

To be clear, should we not refer to the BioNtech vaccine in association with Pfizer. BioNtech being too small to scale the vaccine to the necessary quantities, but very much the developers of this.

Interestingly their share price has gone from $30 pre pandemic to $112 today. Pfizer have gone from $39 in January to $39 today

Yeah probably they are the developers and needed someone bigger to come on with production and financial clout

odyssey06

Co-ordinating getting nursing home residents to these regional centres will be non-trivial exercise...
And staffing issues - need to factor in that some staff will suffer temporary mild side effects but would not be able to work.

CIARAN_BOYLE

ACitizenErased wrote: »

We absolutely deserve weekly updates.

What do you want in weekly updates

Developed plans for cold chain infrastructure. Am awaiting results (as opposed to press release) re Pfizer vaccine to determine if it will be needed.

A weekly update is a waste. I'm happy to know theres a team planning and at this early stage that's all we need to know.

Gael23

odyssey06 wrote: »

Co-ordinating getting nursing home residents to these regional centres will be non-trivial exercise...
And staffing issues - need to factor in that some staff will suffer temporary mild side effects but would not be able to work.

I would imagine the nursing home vaccinations will be done on site

Cordell

ThewhiteJesus wrote: »

you'd probably do amazing in the olympics if you took the russian one

Two girls in the Russian Olympic team: girl, since the team doctor gave us those new vitamins I'm growing hair where I never had hair before...
Where?!
On my balls...

CIARAN_BOYLE

Gael23 wrote: »

I would imagine the nursing home vaccinations will be done on site

It depends.

Getting a mobile clinic with cold enough freezers could be difficult and or expensive.

Then again you may be able to transport in a cold enough freezer then store for short periods in a normal freezer.

If they can't easily transport the may need to bus nursing home residents to a vaccine centre or they may determine that another vaccien not relying on cold chain technology would be better for nursing homes so they can do it on site.

iguana

The Fianna Fáil leader added that due to significant issues, such as vaccine manufacture and transport logistics, he said it was important that there was "external expertise" on the taskforce."

I think I like this sentence even more than I liked the information from Pfizer/Biontech this week! I hope it's what happens. I've been concerned by our lack of preparedness for a coming vaccination programme, so I really hope we do get proper external expertise because it would be so dreadful to mess this up. In our favour, I guess, we have a small population so it's not the kind of mammoth task it will be in the UK.

tobefrank321

stephenjmcd wrote: »

This article actually makes me laugh, its so misleading its unbelievable. Independent also reporting similar.
Citing reports of IgG levels in the blood and how it impacts vaccines.

Is it that difficult to do some research and see how various vaccines work & that how blood level IgG aren't that important in terms of immune reposnse from vaccines.

Such a shoddy piece of reporting from both Hiqa and the journalists themselves.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-booster-doses-may-be-needed-for-vaccine-nphet-told-1.4406263?mode=amp

Its a daft article and daft piece of research too. Its contradictory. They say you are only immune to covid for 2-6 months but then say its unlikely you will be reinfected and if you are its a different strain.

In other words you could be immune to one strain for life (not 2-6 months) but infected by another strain soon after.

We've had numerous strains circulating in Europe in recent months. The Danish mink strain for want of a better description, the Spanish strain that's caused a second wave, the Wuhan strain and several others. And yet despite all these strains we've had only 14 reinfections. While in theory you can be reinfected, it seems unlikely and certainly not enough evidence to keep those infected in fear of reinfection. The chances of reinfection are about 1 in a million.

Hmmzis

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Its a daft article and daft piece of research too. Its contradictory. They say you are only immune to covid for 2-6 months but then say its unlikely you will be reinfected and if you are its a different strain.

In other words you could be immune to one strain for life (not 2-6 months) but infected by another strain soon after.

We've had numerous strains circulating in Europe in recent months. The Danish mink strain for want of a better description, the Spanish strain that's caused a second wave, the Wuhan strain and several others. And yet despite all these strains we've had only 14 reinfections. While in theory you can be reinfected, it seems unlikely and certainly not enough evidence to keep those infected in fear of reinfection. The chances of reinfection are about 1 in a million.

At this point of the epidemic it most likely has less to do with any changes in the circulating virus but more to do with our own immune responses that get influenced by the infection:

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)31458-6

The germinal center part and the B cell somatic hypermutations (SHM) are very important to produce long lived plasma cells (LLPCs) as they are the ones that produce a constant background of antibodies. The SHM process allows the antibodies to mature and be far more effective even against the simpler single point escape mutants.

Thierry12

Cordell wrote: »

Two girls in the Russian Olympic team: girl, since the team doctor gave us those new vitamins I'm growing hair where I never had hair before...
Where?!
On my balls...

What's your point?

Kremlin have developed some of the most efficacious peds ever?

As have Ze Germans, Yanks.

CoronaBlocker

normanoffside wrote: »

They should have their plans in place already. It's not like arrival of a vaccine might be a complete surprise.

This is the same sort of shambles as the PPE back in March/April, trying to get it when it was already needed immediately.

Meanwhile the Germans had already been planning for months before and had everything ready, much like their vaccination plans now.

Germany seized PPE from trucks simply passing through Germany. It also seized PPE owned by other nations that was simply being warehoused in Germany. This created uproar internally (the EU) and eventually led to a German backtrack and culminated in the EU order to not allow PPE exports from the EU - which no doubt annoyed external customers but hey-ho... Europe's gonna Europe. A very embarrassing situation for the Germans, so it was.

hmmm

stephenjmcd wrote: »

This article actually makes me laugh, its so misleading its unbelievable. Independent also reporting similar.
Citing reports of IgG levels in the blood and how it impacts vaccines.

HIQA's own report is perfectly reasonable. It's the reporting I question.

"Current understanding of the immune response to SARS-CoV-2 is limited. The
presence of antibodies does not mean that the person has immunity, and cellmediated immunity (memory B-cells, T-cell responses) are important. The relative importance of antibody versus cell-mediated responses is not known. The
finding of waning neutralising antibody responses and capacity is mirrored in the
natural evolution of immunity to other viral infections; the reduction of
neutralising antibody titres alone does not exclude the possibility of an
appropriate immune response with protection from reinfection."

"Anti-SARS-CoV-2 IgG and neutralising antibody seropositivity is maintained in
most individuals for two to six months post-infection. However, further
research is required to establish the relative importance of antibody-mediated
immunity and the levels (titres) necessary to prevent reinfection. Further
research is also required on cell-mediated immunity, including B- and T-cell
responses..”

tobefrank321

Antibodies as the primary source of immunity has been largely if not fully discredited for covid 19, thankfully. It also seems many countries have abandoned serological studies to determine who was infected because of the short duration of antibodies.

Airyfairy12

If antibodies dont protect from reinfection, how does the vaccine work?

ACitizenErased

Sinovac's trial is continuing in Brazil after the stoppage the other day.

Stheno

Ireland will get 3 million doses of the Pfizer vaccine, so that's 1.5 million people

Thierry12

Stheno wrote: »

Ireland will get 3 million doses of the Pfizer vaccine, so that's 1.5 million people

For the 2021?

Gael23

Stheno wrote: »

Ireland will get 3 million doses of the Pfizer vaccine, so that's 1.5 million people

That’s by the end of 2021?

Hmmzis

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

If antibodies dont protect from reinfection, how does the vaccine work?

They do, we just don't know the 'correlate of protection' at the moment. It'll take time or challenge trials to establish that.

If the AB protective layer is breached then the T cells come into action by secreting all sorts of proteins to put still healthy cells into an antiviral state and docking to memory B cells so they start producing more antibodies (anamnestic response). The killer T cells can recognize infected cells directly and kill them off. Depending on all sorts of variables this can be asymptomatic or there could be some symptoms.

Vaccines work by inducing a cellular and antibody response, they're all linked. You can't get antibodies without a cellular response and a cellular response will result in some form of antibodies created.