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Covid 19 crisis - aid to the civil power

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,736 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    sparky42 wrote: »
    I said it would be counter productive now, if we were in a state of widespread civil disobedience they wouldn't make a difference because the Gardaí with nearly twice the manpower and far more vehicles would already have failed to keep order.


    I think and hope you are wrong. I would feel that serious disorder would be confined to certain choke points and areas and more easily contained by a small concentrated force.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,791 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    saabsaab wrote: »
    I think and hope you are wrong. I would feel that serious disorder would be confined to certain choke points and areas and more easily contained by a small concentrated force.

    Yeah, correct, the Garda POU!

    Have you some sort of weird bloodlust or something? You're catastrophising to a situation that doesn't look remotely likely as things stands.

    In fact, both the security and the social community care of the situation are being led by the example of ordinary people doing what is necessary and that is the foundation stone of civic policing by consent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,002 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    saabsaab wrote: »
    I think and hope you are wrong. I would feel that serious disorder would be confined to certain choke points and areas and more easily contained by a small concentrated force.
    With armoured cars... :rolleyes:

    Not your ornery onager



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Aside from a few stone throwers or some yoof skateboarding in a small crowd where they shouldn't be that's about it really.
    The only thing you'd need to do is dust off the neighbourhood watch contact list for the very peak period.

    Instead you'll have to look towards Europe, and the more densely populated uk, for any early signs of trouble and strife.
    Those larger cities, esp in places like France, Belgium and SE England will be the early litmus test for elsewhere.

    Francesco Rocca, head of the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies (IFRC) told a United Nations news briefing:
    "We have a lot of people who are living very marginalised, in the so-called black hole of society.
    In the most difficult neighbourhoods of the biggest cities I am afraid that in a few weeks we will have social problems"

    Also said the largest Western cities could see "the unrest emerge in just a few weeks time."

    Paris is fond of a Sunday riot or two, Marseille, and and sub-regions of other NW Euro cities e.g. Molenbeek, can kick off easily enough.

    One strange news item in the tabloids last week, was the the SE of England were warning of potential power blackouts, due to COVID (staff levels).
    They even recommended everyone keep a torch and wind-up radio at hand, this is a largely automated industry, and would appear to be creating an unnecessary panic with this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,791 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34



    One strange news item in the tabloids last week, was the the SE of England were warning of potential power blackouts, due to COVID (staff levels).
    They even recommended everyone keep a torch and wind-up radio at hand, this is a largely automated industry, and would appear to be creating an unnecessary panic with this.

    Its a valid conversation to have, but people need to be circumspect in what they publish.

    Yesterday or the day before, the Irish Times published an op-ed by Prof Sam McConkey, the virologist you'll have seen a lot on TV of late.

    He was giving dire warnings about potential problems with power, water, sanitation, communications and online services due to illness in workforces.

    Given that a) Ireland's infection levels are persistently quite low and b) the utilities came out and said 'if you'd bothered asking us we'd have told you about our extensive contingencies and currently we're fine thanks', I thought it was a grossly irresponsible piece to publish, adding to some people's already high anxiety levels, and that the IT and the Prof ought to have had more cop on.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,808 ✭✭✭Alkers


    Larbre34 wrote: »

    Given that a) Ireland's infection levels are persistently quite low and b) the utilities came out and said 'if you'd bothered asking us we'd have told you about our extensive contingencies and currently we're fine thanks'

    How can you know this? The test results published are now completely meaningless in terms of the actual numbers of infections.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,860 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Alkers wrote: »
    How can you know this? The test results published are now completely meaningless in terms of the actual numbers of infections.

    Our hospitalisation numbers tell the story, even if you assume the active cases are double what we know, it’s the pressure on the hospitals that counts more.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,791 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Alkers wrote: »
    How can you know this? The test results published are now completely meaningless in terms of the actual numbers of infections.

    Percentage of negative tests of those that are carried out, remains ~93. Death rate flat. Projected cases at 30th March from 16th March 15,000 - actual cases 30th March ~2,500.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,791 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    By the by, armed robbery carried out on convenience store in Old Bawn, Tallaght this morning. Suspect arrested by Gardaí close-by just afterwards, quantity of cash recovered.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,736 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    'You're catastrophising to a situation that doesn't look remotely likely as things stands'


    I don't think I am. Just look at what has happened in the last few weeks something that few foresaw even 2 months ago.


    Anyway an armoured car or similar is very visible even if it can't do very much except as a deterrent.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    By the by, armed robbery carried out on convenience store in Old Bawn, Tallaght this morning. Suspect arrested by Gardaí close-by just afterwards, quantity of cash recovered.

    This seems an unwise time to be carrying out armed robberies, I havent been over in Tallaght but iv never seen so many cops on patrol round home. :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,791 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    saabsaab wrote: »
    armoured car or similar is very visible even if it can't do very much except as a deterrent.

    Well then what would be the point of it, other than to present dreadful optics and a political own goal in the Government's efforts to manage this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,736 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Well then what would be the point of it, other than to present dreadful optics and a political own goal in the Government's efforts to manage this.


    A deterrent to those that may cause disorder. I don't think it would look too bad and show that the government means business. Nobody is going to ram an armoured vehicle if used as a road block.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,791 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    saabsaab wrote: »
    A deterrent to those that may cause disorder. I don't think it would look too bad and show that the government means business. Nobody is going to ram an armoured vehicle if used as a road block.

    The Government mean business? Where the **** do you think this is?

    There is NOTHING going on to necessitate that sort of escalation in policing stance. If you deploy armoured vehicles to an area with some anti social behaviour, especially if you don't really intend to use them, they'll just become a red rag and have people stoning it and climbing all over it. It itself would have created a feckin problem.

    The visible Garda presence, patrol cars, POU vans, motorcycles and the requisitioned community support cars are doing a superb job of monitoring the situation


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,736 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    The Government mean business? Where the **** do you think this is?

    There is NOTHING going on to necessitate that sort of escalation in policing stance. If you deploy armoured vehicles to an area with some anti social behaviour, especially if you don't really intend to use them, they'll just become a red rag and have people stoning it and climbing all over it. It itself would have created a feckin problem.

    The visible Garda presence, patrol cars, POU vans, motorcycles and the requisitioned community support cars are doing a superb job of monitoring the situation


    I know full well what this is I even saw it coming from the end of Jan when nobody was interested.

    Better being in an armoured car when being stoned than an ordinary car. It is too early for that yet but who can say when that might change two weeks from now?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,860 ✭✭✭sparky42


    saabsaab wrote: »
    I know full well what this is I even saw it coming from the end of Jan when nobody was interested.

    Better being in an armoured car when being stoned than an ordinary car. It is too early for that yet but who can say when that might change two weeks from now?

    Italy and Spain have been on lockdown longer with far more deaths and yet the army hasn’t been needed for those duties. What makes you think we will need them?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    I'd say the DF are doing their level best at the moment lobbying Government to avoid being ordered todeal with Joe Public. Logistics and certain other taskings for the civil authority/power, and no more.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,736 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    sparky42 wrote: »
    Italy and Spain have been on lockdown longer with far more deaths and yet the army hasn’t been needed for those duties. What makes you think we will need them?


    Not true,


    Italian army soldiers patrol streets after being deployed to the region of Lombardy to enforce the lockdown against the spread of coronavirus disease (COVID-19) in Milan, Italy, March 20, 2020. REUTERS/Daniele Mascolo


    With the threats to those moving from the cities to holiday homes it looks like things are starting to go downhill. I don't think people should be moving now by the way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,791 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    saabsaab wrote: »


    With the threats to those moving from the cities to holiday homes it looks like things are starting to go downhill. I don't think people should be moving now by the way.

    A couple of anonymous coward sh1theads in a small town in west Clare?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,736 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    A couple of anonymous coward sh1theads in a small town in west Clare?


    You'll get them everywhere and this type of situation brings them out.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,984 ✭✭✭mikeym


    FOCNS apealing for ex navy personnel to rejoin to fight Covid19.

    Preferably Era's,Ea's and Chefs.

    Walter Mittys need not apply.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    donvito99 wrote: »
    I'd say the DF are doing their level best at the moment lobbying Government to avoid being ordered todeal with Joe Public. Logistics and certain other taskings for the civil authority/power, and no more.


    You're contradicting yourself a little there.

    The DF doesn't have to lobby anyone not to do anything, we do what we're told and tasked with.
    Logistics and certain other taskings for the civil authority/power, and no more.

    Aid to the civil authority and aid to the civil powers are two completely different taskings. ATCA is a soft roles, that's what we're doing now. ATCP is a hard role, boots helmets and weapons on the ground, we're a long away from that point and hopefully things never have to get to that point but if they ever did we have the manpower, tools and motivation to complete that tasking too.

    This is Irish soldiers in a hard role dealing with civil unrest in Kosovo



    Hopefully this will never happen in Ireland neither now or in the future.

    Members of AGS showed they're well able and motivated to deal with civil unrest when people peacefully protesting the water charges were baton charged by An Gardai


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