RAF QRA Launch!

Larbre34

Irish Times has an article today based on an interview with retired US Admiral James Stavridis, former Supreme Allied Commander Europe, NATOs second highest military officer and operational commander.

He believes the Russian probing of the highly strategic Greenland/Iceland/UK gap, which is what Ireland is now caught up in, will only further intensify and heat up the necessary NATO mirroring.

He acknowledges that setting up a jet interceptor force in Ireland would be extremely expensive, and says that the recent assessment by retired GOC Air Corps, Brigadier General Ralph James, that a proper capability would be 16 jets and full support operations, would be a bare minimum.

Gen. James outlined in an interview with the Irish Times of 26th February, that there was no point in having "half a capability", and that for a 24/7 service we would need the 16 jets, 3 crews each, technicians, weapons specialists, suitable fire crew and ATC and full primary radar coverage.

Admiral Stavridis today suggests a bilateral agreement between Ireland and France or Germany to locate fighter units here in a policing role similar to that being undertaken by NATO air assets in the EU Baltic States.

Interesting discussion points.

Markcheese

But ... Does Ireland ( currently ) have an interest in long-range bombers or submarine and anti submarine war fare ...
As in the start of world war 2, we were in a strategically important location .... To the Germans and the British .. but as it wasn't a conflict of ours ,.. we didn't get involved ..
If we'd aided either Germans or the allies how long would it have been before Ireland had been bombed ...

Leonidas BL

Markcheese wrote: »

But ... Does Ireland ( currently ) have an interest in long-range bombers or submarine and anti submarine war fare ...
As in the start of world war 2, we were in a strategically important location .... To the Germans and the British .. but as it wasn't a conflict of ours ,.. we didn't get involved ..
If we'd aided either Germans or the allies how long would it have been before Ireland had been bombed ...

A good question. What actual interest does Vlad have in Ireland??

About ww2, surely the Germans would've invaded had they defeated the allies??

Psychlops

Larbre34 wrote: »

I would put a flight of two QRA in both Kerry and Sligo Airports, with associated facilities for fuelling, basic maintenance and crew accommodation.

You wouldnt have the length in Sligo, if you are going to put QRA anywhere with dedicated services your best & most obvious bases are Knock & Shannon.

Psychlops

Markcheese wrote: »

If we'd aided either Germans or the allies how long would it have been before Ireland had been bombed ...

We did aid the allies, who gave you history lessons?

Psychlops

Leonidas BL wrote: »

A good question. What actual interest does Vlad have in Ireland??

About ww2, surely the Germans would've invaded had they defeated the allies??

Course they would, Operation Green.

Leonidas BL

Psychlops wrote: »

You wouldnt have the length in Sligo, if you are going to put QRA anywhere with dedicated services your best & most obvious bases are Knock & Shannon.

Sligo be plenty long for Gripen.

Larbre34

I'd be concerned about Knock's isolated location, and elevated site, can get foggy, snowy, windy.

It probably wouldn't matter exactly where, I just picked Kerry and Sligo to maximise the coverage and minimise the distance to open ocean in case of supersonic interception.

sparky42

Leonidas BL wrote: »

A good question. What actual interest does Vlad have in Ireland??

About ww2, surely the Germans would've invaded had they defeated the allies??

Hence why there was an agreement to join if the Germans had actually launched Sealion. They couldn't of course but still, in hindsight it would almost have been better for the UK if they had.

Markcheese

Psychlops wrote: »

We did aid the allies, who gave you history lessons?

Did we ? Do tell ..., We had a very lax internment system ( for both sides) ,we didn't offer our ports to either side ...
We played it to our advantage ,(maybe not economically ) , anyway back to modern times ..

sparky42

Markcheese wrote: »

Did we ? Do tell ..., We had a very lax internment system ( for both sides) ,we didn't offer our ports to either side ...
We played it to our advantage ,(maybe not economically ) , anyway back to modern times ..

Our intelligence services worked together, we provided weather forecasts for the UK (hence Blacksod giving the weather for making the decision for D-Day), we gave the UK sub sighting reports, allowed overflights, and worked with the UK developing plans to join the war if there was an invasion.

Markcheese

How much would baldonnal be worth ? For property development ? It's not far from some decent transport links ...
Flog it ... Relocate the aer corp to Shannon ( which has air traffic control and fire service 24/ 7 ,plus a decent runway that the government kinda have to subsidise anyway .., ( keep a helicopter base and offices in baldonnal but relocate everything else down to Shannon ... Feic it ,build a few decent appartment complexes for the aer corp ,at subsidised rents for serving members ..
And invest the proceeds in upgrading the aer corp ...although I've no idea how far you'd get ... pc21s ?Lead in jets ? A decent apprentice ship and training programme for technicians and pilots , and the ability to retire or buy out early leaving room for others to train on and up ...
( Doubt there'd be enough money ,or will enough to start funding supersonic jets though )

Leonidas BL

sparky42 wrote: »

Our intelligence services worked together, we provided weather forecasts for the UK (hence Blacksod giving the weather for making the decision for D-Day), we gave the UK sub sighting reports, allowed overflights, and worked with the UK developing plans to join the war if there was an invasion.

Not to mention allowing RAF pilots to return to the UK but interning the Luftwaffe pilots.

Leonidas BL

Markcheese wrote: »

How much would baldonnal be worth ? For property development ? It's not far from some decent transport links ...
Flog it ... Relocate the aer corp to Shannon ( which has air traffic control and fire service 24/ 7 ,plus a decent runway that the government kinda have to subsidise anyway .., ( keep a helicopter base and offices in baldonnal but relocate everything else down to Shannon ... Feic it ,build a few decent appartment complexes for the aer corp ,at subsidised rents for serving members ..
And invest the proceeds in upgrading the aer corp ...although I've no idea how far you'd get ... pc21s ?Lead in jets ? A decent apprentice ship and training programme for technicians and pilots , and the ability to retire or buy out early leaving room for others to train on and up ...
( Doubt there'd be enough money ,or will enough to start funding supersonic jets though )

PC21's and Gripens

Flog the PC-9's

donvito99

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Waffle. None of which addresses what I posted about the points you made. So do we have military jets or not?

BTW it's a billion a year, and yes it's never going to happen.

I quite clearly called you out on not being able to demonstrate that there was a threat to civilian traffic which could not be avoided via a primary radar.

I also made it quite clear that a fleet of fast jets would be a waste and would take resources away from actual threats to the State, and would merely meet your desire to see an aircraft with an AC roundel escorting a bomber flying through international air space in peacetime.

jonnybigwallet

This notion of a billion a year is rubbish. Whoever came up with that number did not do any research. I see in the Examiner this week that RACO endorses the idea of establishing an air defence and QRA capability for the air corps along with other military enhancements.

donvito99

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

This notion of a billion a year is rubbish. Whoever came up with that number did not do any research. I see in the Examiner this week that RACO endorses the idea of establishing an air defence and QRA capability for the air corps along with other military enhancements.

A former General Officer Commanding the Air Corps came up with that figure.

I think we all know who we'd sooner believe.

sparky42

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

This notion of a billion a year is rubbish. Whoever came up with that number did not do any research. I see in the Examiner this week that RACO endorses the idea of establishing an air defence and QRA capability for the air corps along with other military enhancements.

Are you a general office of the Air Corps? If not maybe we go with someone who was.

jonnybigwallet

The billion number is to set up the QRA. Not the annual running cost...I'm surprised you haven't worked up the numbers yourself Sparky.

Larbre34

I'd say the setup costs, for 16 jets plus purpose built hangars, at least one extra air station, weapons purchase and storage, aprons and fuel infrastructure, training suites, barracks, IT and Comms and most importantly a national military radar would be more like 2-2.5 billion.

Annual running costs, including payroll of 40-50 additional pilots, 50-80 more techs, maintenence, fuel and weapons consumables, upgrades, constant training would be between 200 and 300 million, an increase of about one third to the Defence budget.

I'd still be doing it.

Psychlops

Markcheese wrote: »

for the aer corp

Its not Aer Corp, FFS get it right its Air Corps. Why do so many posters here need to get checked on this? Its bad enough its written on alot of the Aircraft they operate.

Markcheese

Psychlops wrote: »

Its not Aer Corp, FFS get it right its Air Corps. Why do so many posters here need to get checked on this? Its bad enough its written on alot of the Aircraft they operate.

Fair enough ..

Markcheese

Psychlops wrote: »

Its not Aer Corp, FFS get it right its Air Corps. Why do so many posters here need to get checked on this? Its bad enough its written on alot of the Aircraft they operate.

Fair enough ..

JamesM

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Not to mention allowing RAF pilots to return to the UK but interning the Luftwaffe pilots.

Not to mention the crew, dressed in Irish uniform, who were collecting one of our MTBs, thinking that it was a good idea to head on over to Dunkirk and lift English and French soldiers off the beaches.

purplepanda

Looks like the TU-160-Blackjack has also joined the recent Russian patrols! :pac:

https://theaviationist.com/2020/03/13/raf-typhoons-intercept-russian-tu-160-blackjack-bomber-in-third-intercept-this-week/

Psychlops

purplepanda wrote: »

Looks like the TU-160-Blackjack has also joined the recent Russian patrols! :pac:

https://theaviationist.com/2020/03/13/raf-typhoons-intercept-russian-tu-160-blackjack-bomber-in-third-intercept-this-week/

Already mentioned here.

Leonidas BL

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Yeah..Thanks Psy. Jolly interesting and educational in to the bargain. I've upgraded my wish list for fighter aircraft and now feel that for the air defence and intercept role that the wee Chech job would not quite cut the mustard. So I reckon 6 of the Fa50 Korean jets would be a reasonable asset and 6 of the chech jobs would do for the air ground role.

FA50 is only a fart of a thing. We should get some Eurofighters and share patrol duties with the UK.

donvito99

Leonidas BL wrote: »

FA50 is only a fart of a thing. We should get some Eurofighters and share patrol duties with the UK.

Austria would like a word with you.

Hotblack Desiato

donvito99 wrote: »

I quite clearly called you out on not being able to demonstrate that there was a threat to civilian traffic which could not be avoided via a primary radar.

You are being unnecessarily aggressive.
Why do the RAF or any other country bother with intercepts, then? if having a radar is adequate. The intercepting aircraft squawk so they can be seen on secondary radar / TCAS, it's been many decades since primary radar alone was thought adequate for safe conduct of civil aviation.

I also made it quite clear that a fleet of fast jets would be a waste and would take resources away from actual threats to the State, and would merely meet your desire to see an aircraft with an AC roundel escorting a bomber flying through international air space in peacetime.

Now you're just making stuff up, I have not expressed any such desire and already acknowledged it'll never happen.

donvito99

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You are being unnecessarily aggressive.
Why do the RAF or any other country bother with intercepts, then? if having a radar is adequate.

They have historically maintained vast fleets of fighters, bombers and now fighter bombers for war, which are also capable of intercepting these Russian stunts. It is an opportunity to train and for them to test there own readiness generally, given that a scenario in which Britain has to fight another aerial war above in its own skys is unlikely in the extreme.

The intercepting aircraft squawk so they can be seen on secondary radar / TCAS, it's been many decades since primary radar alone was thought adequate for safe conduct of civil aviation.

It can't be inadequate if the same technology manages to successfully detect these Russian aircraft in the first place.

An ideal situation would be a network of radars maintained by the IAA and monitored by their controllers, allowing them to identify anything in the most sensitive and congested parts of our controlled airspace without the need to involve another layer i.e. the AC/Defence Forces at large, as they can barely field controllers at Baldonnel at present.

These Russian aircraft suddenly become no threat at all once commercial aircraft can be made aware of their presence and redirected to continue on their merry way.