RAF QRA Launch!

Psychlops

QRA Launch! RAF Voyager tanker & 2 Typhoons using callsigns “F7Y11” & “F7Y12” have launched to intercept a Russian Air Force TU-142 Bear Bombers. The Bear Bombers are currently west of Donegal!

Psychlops

RAF Tanker MADRAS707 now west of Plymouth, Russian Bears are heading south along the Irish West Coast, RAF QRA Typhoons from RAF Lossiemouth are RTB RAF Lossiemouth & a new QRA from RAF Coningsby is now airborne to intercept the Bears. New. QRA Typhoons are using the callsigns “9WZ41” & “9WZ42”. RAF Voyager is established in air to air refuel area 12.

Psychlops

Psychlops wrote: »

RAF Tanker MADRAS707 now west of Plymouth, Russian Bears are heading south along the Irish West Coast, RAF QRA Typhoons from RAF Lossiemouth are RTB RAF Lossiemouth & a new QRA from RAF Coningsby is now airborne to intercept the Bears. New. QRA Typhoons are using the callsigns “9WZ41” & “9WZ42”. RAF Voyager is established in air to air refuel area 12.

Typhoons now headed south Past Cork to intercept.

Psychlops

RAF Tanker MADRAS707 now nearly south of Cork, Russian Bears are continuing south along the Irish West Coast, new RAF QRA Typhoons are using the callsigns “9WZ41” & “9WZ42” from RAF Coningsby.

jonnybigwallet

Where did you get this from Psychops? Nowt on BBC.
Looks like them Russian spies up in Dartry have been reading the "Fighter Jets for the AC" thread and decided to test our response !

Psychlops

BREAKING:New QRA, RAF QRA Typhoon ZK349 using callsign “F7Y13” & Typhoon ZJ946 using callsign “F7Y14” has launched from RAF Lossiemouth.

jonnybigwallet

Bloody hell! This is getting serious! Hope the boys in Baldonnel are about to launch the Irish Rapid Reaction squadron, and have the auld anti aircraft guns on the NS ships all primed and ready to go!

Psychlops

MARCOTTE20 French Air Force KC-135 tanker airborne to support French Air Force QRA Rafales.

jonnybigwallet

Thanks for the running commentary Psy...This is gripping and dramatic stuff. Just goes to show that we've let the side down due to the government's penny pinching attitude towards the AC. Depriving us of the spoils of victory!

Psychlops

Judging the track of the RAF Tanker I’d say the RAF Typhoons never entered Irish Airspace, perhaps Irish Controlled Airspace definately, I wonder if they talked to Shannon?

jonnybigwallet

Cheeky buggers. Looks like the clipped the Giants Causeway.

roadmaster

That was an expensive afternoon for the British considering the Russians where just out for a weekend drive

Psychlops

RAF have released the images from today.

banie01

Text book example of how QRA escort mission works even down to the handover to Rafael.

These are the missions that any "fighter" the Air Corps were to get lumbered with by some would need to perform.

Multiple launches and tanker support are part and parcel of the air intercept and policing role that make it a hugely expensive proposition.

Nice days flying for all involved and the ground crew will have a busy couple of days all round.

@Psychlops, thanks for the thread and updates.

jonnybigwallet

Yeah..Thanks Psy. Jolly interesting and educational in to the bargain. I've upgraded my wish list for fighter aircraft and now feel that for the air defence and intercept role that the wee Chech job would not quite cut the mustard. So I reckon 6 of the Fa50 Korean jets would be a reasonable asset and 6 of the chech jobs would do for the air ground role.

Markcheese

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Yeah..Thanks Psy. Jolly interesting and educational in to the bargain. I've upgraded my wish list for fighter aircraft and now feel that for the air defence and intercept role that the wee Chech job would not quite cut the mustard. So I reckon 6 of the Fa50 Korean jets would be a reasonable asset and 6 of the chech jobs would do for the air ground role.

Ah but would the Korean ones have the range ..

Does this not reinforce the fact that strategically ,our locations not all that important ,and since we don't have either offence or defensive capability .. no one's really interested in us or our airspace ...
So by obtaining capability we'd be making ourselves a target ...

roadmaster

Them bears I would say are thirsty on fuel , we could go down the 80’s route and get them to stop in Shannon that way we would know when they are coming and we wouldn’t need to get jets to intercept them problem solved!

Larbre34

Pathetic for a sovereign nation. Utterly embarrassing.

I could accept it if we were in NATO and had a status like Iceland, but like most things we do in Ireland we are only half involved, half committed, half interested in our own concerns. Usual political double speak to try and keep all interests happy with the result that they end up satisfying nobody.

Posters mention tankers, we wouldn't need feckin tankers if we had an air station or two in the west of the Country and were deploying interceptors in relays inside our own airspace only.

If I were Britain and France I'd be sending us a bill for the full whack of that mission today and fair play to them for carrying it out so professionally, but it shouldn't be their job.

roadmaster

Larbre34 wrote: »

Pathetic for a sovereign nation. Utterly embarrassing.

I could accept it if we were in NATO and had a status like Iceland, but like most things we do in Ireland we are only half involved, half committed, half interested in our own concerns. Usual political double speak to try and keep all interests happy with the result that they end up satisfying nobody.

Posters mention tankers, we wouldn't need feckin tankers if we had an air station or two in the west of the Country and were deploying interceptors in relays inside our own airspace only.

If I were Britain and France I'd be sending us a bill for the full whack of that mission today and fair play to them for carrying it out so professionally, but it shouldn't be their job.

The British did not intercept for us they intercepted for themselves they could not give a dam about us.

We do need interceptor capacity of some sort but not for chasing the Russians who aren’t even in our airspace

Our concern should be civilian aircraft that are out of contact for some reason. We don’t want a jet crashing in to one of our cities when we could have stoped it. Examples such as below

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_South_Dakota_Learjet_crash

Larbre34

Yes of course the Russians were probing NATO air forces reaction as always, but that involves testing the Irish area of responsibility of the RAF as a potential weak point, which does essentially make it our problem. I agree with you about other threats from the air but my point about sovereignty stands.

Psychlops

roadmaster wrote: »

Them bears I would say are thirsty on fuel , we could go down the 80’s route and get them to stop in Shannon that way we would know when they are coming and we wouldn’t need to get jets to intercept them problem solved!

Apparently it can stay airborne for 10.5 hours, I remember a clip in the 80's where they talked to F14 Tomcat crews about intercepting them & they said they used to hate it as the noise from the props if you were flying behind or beside it was terrible, they preferred to fly forward of the props as much as possible.

jonnybigwallet

Hats Off to the courageous airmen of the RAF and the L'Armee de L'Aire for chasing away Jonny Russian from our sacred soil!
As other posters have pointed out we could have take part in the exercise quite capably without refuelling tankers by using (say) the defunct airport in Cairnryan and Cork or Kerry to base 3 pairs of fast jets, and the FA 50 does mach 1.5 so well up to engaging and maintaining station with a Bear bomber. Sooner we acquire these the better. With a military potential threat of any type you need to plan several years ahead...not wait until "the enemy is at the gate", as these aircraft are not available off the shelf and one has to allow several years procurement lead time. It's about time we stopped scrounging off our good neighbours and allies and stepped up to the plate. We would win a bit of respect that way. Ya can't be puttin on "An Bheal Bocht" on the one hand and boast about having a booming economy with high rates of GDP growth on t'other.

listermint

Larbre34 wrote: »

Yes of course the Russians were probing NATO air forces reaction as always, but that involves testing the Irish area of responsibility of the RAF as a potential weak point, which does essentially make it our problem. I agree with you about other threats from the air but my point about sovereignty stands.

Aye hundreds of millions poured into jets for willy waving sovereignty of a neutral island.

More of this sign me up...

Smiles35

listermint wrote: »

Aye hundreds of millions poured into jets for willy waving sovereignty of a neutral island.

More of this sign me up...

Every 10 years they would have to be replaced on top of all the other expendisure.

jonnybigwallet

No they would not. Look at how old the RAF Tornados are and they are only being replaced now. Our guys wouldn't be putting massive hours on the airframes either.

donvito99

These flights pose no threat and to suggest that we need to develop some sort of equivalent QRA for this purpose is silly. There is no "Irish area of responsibility" except to the extent that there is airspace that the state is entitled to organise and "control".

roadmaster

Is not a waste of time intercepting these flights as they are in international air space and can freely fly there. The minute they take off Nato can track them anyway between satellites and radar and can probably predict there course

Larbre34

listermint wrote: »

Aye hundreds of millions poured into jets for willy waving sovereignty of a neutral island.

More of this sign me up...

Thats just the point. Sovereignty isn't worth the ink unless it can be asserted.

Defence spending is a normal part of the budget of any Country. At the moment we spend somewhere less than 0.5% of MGNI (0.3% of GDP). We can do much better at a basic national defence without it even approaching "willy waving"

donvito99

Larbre34 wrote: »

Thats just the point. Sovereignty isn't worth the ink unless it can be asserted.

Defence spending is a normal part of the budget of any Country. At the moment we spend somewhere less than 0.5% of MGNI (0.3% of GDP). We can do much better at a basic national defence without it even approaching "willy waving"

A QRA will not make this country any more or less sovereign than it already is (i.e. perfectly sovereign).

Larbre34

donvito99 wrote: »

A QRA will not make this country any more or less sovereign than it already is (i.e. perfectly sovereign).

Russian warplanes with their transponders switched off, towing anti-submarine arrays through the Irish air traffic sector with impunity is NOT the assertion of a sovereign state.

Being able to challenge any and all comers on the sea and in the air of our territory is a basic international standard of sovereignty.

Psychlops

BREAKING: Active & ongoing since 7am another RAF QRA, Aircraft involved are an RAF Voyager tanker using the callsign MADRAS711 “9VM60” & QRA Typhoons from RAF Lossiemouth to shadow 2 Russian aircraft, they have also been tracked & ID’d by a French Air Force E3 AWACS Sentry & the French Air Force QRA is also active.

Again these Russian aircraft have passed down along the Irish West Coast & over the bay of Biscay & just now 2 more RAF QRA Typhoons using the callsigns T8J03 & T8J04 have been scrambled from RAF Lossiemouth.

Leonidas BL

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/why-do-british-jets-protect-irish-airspace/

A good read

donvito99

Leonidas BL wrote: »

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/why-do-british-jets-protect-irish-airspace/

A good read

"Good" a bit of a stretch.

Refers to "The Air Corps" and says we have "no jet aircraft".

It's there to whip the Nigels into a tizzy, and is successful at that.

If these aircraft were actually a threat we'd have done something about it. But aircraft flying through our air space are not a threat.

Leonidas BL

donvito99 wrote: »

"Good" a bit of a stretch.

Refers to "The Air Corps" and says we have "no jet aircraft".

It's there to whip the Nigels into a tizzy, and is successful at that.

If these aircraft were actually a threat we'd have done something about it. But aircraft flying through our air space are not a threat.

Hasn't it been said several times that they are a hazard to civilian traffic? They must be wrong so.

donvito99

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Hasn't it been said several times that they are a hazard to civilian traffic? They must be wrong so.

You're suggesting the Russians will fly one of their bombers into aircraft in Irish airspace?

That's a bold play, Cotton.

Leonidas BL

donvito99 wrote: »

You're suggesting the Russians will fly one of their bombers into aircraft in Irish airspace?

That's a bold play, Cotton.

I didn't suggest it, others on here did. Its not as if two aircraft have never collided or anything :rolleyes:

donvito99

Leonidas BL wrote: »

I didn't suggest it, others on here did. Its not as if two aircraft have never collided or anything :rolleyes:

So 'others' suggest that the solution to this is to spend billions on fast jets so that we can ensure a Russian bomber doesn't fly into another jet?

jonnybigwallet

Do the numbers. Wouldn't cost that much.

Leonidas BL

donvito99 wrote: »

So 'others' suggest that the solution to this is to spend billions on fast jets so that we can ensure a Russian bomber doesn't fly into another jet?

Why do I have to keep repeating myself to you?
Yes that is what "others" are suggesting!! Is that not the point of any QRA mission, that air traffic control can see where they are while they are in our area because of the fact that they do not switch on their transponders?

donvito99

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Why do I have to keep repeating myself to you?
Yes that is what "others" are suggesting!! Is that not the point of any QRA mission, that air traffic control can see where they are while they are in our area because of the fact that they do not switch on their transponders?

If only there was some sort of primary radar negating the need for resource sapping, willy waving fast jets...

Psychlops

Approximate routing today of 2 Russian Navy Tu-142 Bombers. From Mil Radar on Twitter.

Psychlops

Those Russian Aircraft did fly in Irish Controlled Airspace today & Shannon High had to request all aircraft to keep an eye out & report them if sighted.

Psychlops

Also of interest was the callsign French Air Force 900 which was an E3 Sentry AWACS talking to Shannon High level telling Shannon that they were going to a Lat/Long position to establish an orbit until further notice for them to move by their Operations for the Russian Bombers.

roadmaster

Does the US Air Force inform Shannon when there F22’s and B2’s are going for the uk or mainland Europe bases does anyone know?

Psychlops

roadmaster wrote: »

Does the US Air Force inform Shannon when there F22’s and B2’s are going for the uk or mainland Europe bases does anyone know?

Yeah a flightplan is always filed including for the B2 & if its the B52's its a "Global Power Mission" normally with the callsign MYTEE & they are visible on ADS-B.

Hotblack Desiato

donvito99 wrote: »

"Good" a bit of a stretch.

Refers to "The Air Corps" and says we have "no jet aircraft".

So they got one letter wrong (and isn't "Aer Corps" a bastardised mix of two languages anyway?) and stated a fact - we have no military jet aircraft in Ireland.

If these aircraft were actually a threat we'd have done something about it.

The whole point is that we can't do a damn thing about it. And yes aircraft with no flight plan, no transponder, and no communication with ATC ARE very much a threat to civil aviation safety.

donvito99

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

So they got one letter wrong (and isn't "Aer Corps" a bastardised mix of two languages anyway?) and stated a fact - we have no military jet aircraft in Ireland.



The whole point is that we can't do a damn thing about it. And yes aircraft with no flight plan, no transponder, and no communication with ATC ARE very much a threat to civil aviation safety.

And why not let the RAF do it so? They have the kit, they can escort down our coast, it gives them (and the French) an excuse to justify €100m aircraft when they're not being flown into and out of Syria.

It would be outrageous for any government to spend, as suggested by an ex Air Corps GOC, €1bn just so that we can brag about flying alongside a Russian bomber that can be identified with a pretty rudimentary civilian radar capability. Civilian aircraft can then be redirected as required.

Problem solved. Willys left unwaved.

Hotblack Desiato

Waffle. None of which addresses what I posted about the points you made. So do we have military jets or not?

BTW it's a billion a year, and yes it's never going to happen.

Larbre34

donvito99 wrote: »

And why not let the RAF do it so? They have the kit, they can escort down our coast, it gives them (and the French) an excuse to justify €100m aircraft when they're not being flown into and out of Syria.

It would be outrageous for any government to spend, as suggested by an ex Air Corps GOC, €1bn just so that we can brag about flying alongside a Russian bomber that can be identified with a pretty rudimentary civilian radar capability. Civilian aircraft can then be redirected as required.

Problem solved. Willys left unwaved.

It wouldn't be outrageous at all.

Simon Coveney himself acknowledged the need for a military grade primary radar as a first step.

After that there are a good many solutions that could be examined for aircraft. The Czech Republic leases from Sweden 12 x Gripen multirole supersonic jets since 2004 until 2027 for about €80 million a year. That includes tech support and training and upgrades. Thats less than 10% of even our meagre defence budget in a country that takes in 60 billion a year in taxes. Between that and the primary radar, both of which the EU may well co-fund, we'd have a very good standard of air defence for our needs.

Psychlops

QRA Launch! MADRAS712 RAF Airbus Tanker ZZ336 is airborne from RAF Brize Norton now & routing direct to RAF Lossiemouth.

banie01

Psychlops wrote: »

QRA Launch! MADRAS712 RAF Airbus Tanker ZZ336 is airborne from RAF Brize Norton now & routing direct to RAF Lossiemouth.

The Russians are really upping their patrols!

The attritional hit on NATO is huge over the last few weeks.
Ramping up the incursions during a health crisis and dependant upon the outward and inward routes triggering Norway, UK, France and the Icelandic QRA's on a near daily basis.
Costing NATO far more to escort and respond than it is the Russians to plot an awkward bastard patrol route.