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RAF QRA Launch!

24

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭Leonidas BL




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99



    "Good" a bit of a stretch.

    Refers to "The Air Corps" and says we have "no jet aircraft".

    It's there to whip the Nigels into a tizzy, and is successful at that.

    If these aircraft were actually a threat we'd have done something about it. But aircraft flying through our air space are not a threat.


  • Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭Leonidas BL


    donvito99 wrote: »
    "Good" a bit of a stretch.

    Refers to "The Air Corps" and says we have "no jet aircraft".

    It's there to whip the Nigels into a tizzy, and is successful at that.

    If these aircraft were actually a threat we'd have done something about it. But aircraft flying through our air space are not a threat.

    Hasn't it been said several times that they are a hazard to civilian traffic? They must be wrong so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Hasn't it been said several times that they are a hazard to civilian traffic? They must be wrong so.

    You're suggesting the Russians will fly one of their bombers into aircraft in Irish airspace?

    That's a bold play, Cotton.


  • Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭Leonidas BL


    donvito99 wrote: »
    You're suggesting the Russians will fly one of their bombers into aircraft in Irish airspace?

    That's a bold play, Cotton.

    I didn't suggest it, others on here did. Its not as if two aircraft have never collided or anything :rolleyes:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    I didn't suggest it, others on here did. Its not as if two aircraft have never collided or anything :rolleyes:

    So 'others' suggest that the solution to this is to spend billions on fast jets so that we can ensure a Russian bomber doesn't fly into another jet?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Do the numbers. Wouldn't cost that much.


  • Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭Leonidas BL


    donvito99 wrote: »
    So 'others' suggest that the solution to this is to spend billions on fast jets so that we can ensure a Russian bomber doesn't fly into another jet?

    Why do I have to keep repeating myself to you?
    Yes that is what "others" are suggesting!! Is that not the point of any QRA mission, that air traffic control can see where they are while they are in our area because of the fact that they do not switch on their transponders?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Why do I have to keep repeating myself to you?
    Yes that is what "others" are suggesting!! Is that not the point of any QRA mission, that air traffic control can see where they are while they are in our area because of the fact that they do not switch on their transponders?

    If only there was some sort of primary radar negating the need for resource sapping, willy waving fast jets...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,103 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    Approximate routing today of 2 Russian Navy Tu-142 Bombers. From Mil Radar on Twitter.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,103 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    Those Russian Aircraft did fly in Irish Controlled Airspace today & Shannon High had to request all aircraft to keep an eye out & report them if sighted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,103 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    Also of interest was the callsign French Air Force 900 which was an E3 Sentry AWACS talking to Shannon High level telling Shannon that they were going to a Lat/Long position to establish an orbit until further notice for them to move by their Operations for the Russian Bombers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,562 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Does the US Air Force inform Shannon when there F22’s and B2’s are going for the uk or mainland Europe bases does anyone know?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,103 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Does the US Air Force inform Shannon when there F22’s and B2’s are going for the uk or mainland Europe bases does anyone know?


    Yeah a flightplan is always filed including for the B2 & if its the B52's its a "Global Power Mission" normally with the callsign MYTEE & they are visible on ADS-B.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,789 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    donvito99 wrote: »
    "Good" a bit of a stretch.

    Refers to "The Air Corps" and says we have "no jet aircraft".

    So they got one letter wrong (and isn't "Aer Corps" a bastardised mix of two languages anyway?) and stated a fact - we have no military jet aircraft in Ireland.
    If these aircraft were actually a threat we'd have done something about it.

    The whole point is that we can't do a damn thing about it. And yes aircraft with no flight plan, no transponder, and no communication with ATC ARE very much a threat to civil aviation safety.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    So they got one letter wrong (and isn't "Aer Corps" a bastardised mix of two languages anyway?) and stated a fact - we have no military jet aircraft in Ireland.



    The whole point is that we can't do a damn thing about it. And yes aircraft with no flight plan, no transponder, and no communication with ATC ARE very much a threat to civil aviation safety.

    And why not let the RAF do it so? They have the kit, they can escort down our coast, it gives them (and the French) an excuse to justify €100m aircraft when they're not being flown into and out of Syria.

    It would be outrageous for any government to spend, as suggested by an ex Air Corps GOC, €1bn just so that we can brag about flying alongside a Russian bomber that can be identified with a pretty rudimentary civilian radar capability. Civilian aircraft can then be redirected as required.

    Problem solved. Willys left unwaved.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,789 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Waffle. None of which addresses what I posted about the points you made. So do we have military jets or not?

    BTW it's a billion a year, and yes it's never going to happen.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,773 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    donvito99 wrote: »
    And why not let the RAF do it so? They have the kit, they can escort down our coast, it gives them (and the French) an excuse to justify €100m aircraft when they're not being flown into and out of Syria.

    It would be outrageous for any government to spend, as suggested by an ex Air Corps GOC, €1bn just so that we can brag about flying alongside a Russian bomber that can be identified with a pretty rudimentary civilian radar capability. Civilian aircraft can then be redirected as required.

    Problem solved. Willys left unwaved.

    It wouldn't be outrageous at all.

    Simon Coveney himself acknowledged the need for a military grade primary radar as a first step.

    After that there are a good many solutions that could be examined for aircraft. The Czech Republic leases from Sweden 12 x Gripen multirole supersonic jets since 2004 until 2027 for about €80 million a year. That includes tech support and training and upgrades. Thats less than 10% of even our meagre defence budget in a country that takes in 60 billion a year in taxes. Between that and the primary radar, both of which the EU may well co-fund, we'd have a very good standard of air defence for our needs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,103 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    QRA Launch! MADRAS712 RAF Airbus Tanker ZZ336 is airborne from RAF Brize Norton now & routing direct to RAF Lossiemouth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,414 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Psychlops wrote: »
    QRA Launch! MADRAS712 RAF Airbus Tanker ZZ336 is airborne from RAF Brize Norton now & routing direct to RAF Lossiemouth.

    The Russians are really upping their patrols!

    The attritional hit on NATO is huge over the last few weeks.
    Ramping up the incursions during a health crisis and dependant upon the outward and inward routes triggering Norway, UK, France and the Icelandic QRA's on a near daily basis.
    Costing NATO far more to escort and respond than it is the Russians to plot an awkward bastard patrol route.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,103 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    ‪MADRAS712 is on a NATO Air Policing Squawk of 1321‬, callsign is 3IR64.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,103 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    QRA update: 2 RAF Typhoons have launched from RAF Lossiemouth, Typhoons ZK349 & ZK434.

    Also off topic but interesting:

    MISTY12 flight talking to Shanwick HF, flight of 2 US Air Force B2 Stealth Bombers routing to RAF Fairford, due 14:30-14:50.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,789 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    banie01 wrote: »
    Costing NATO far more to escort and respond than it is the Russians to plot an awkward bastard patrol route.

    Meh. If these lads weren't flying intercepts, they'd have to fly more training missions.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,103 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    RAF QRA Tanker MADRAS712 ZZ336 headed south past Dublin at 27,000ft.

    Shannon reporting unknown Russian Aircraft 20 miles behind Delta flight DAL17/DL17 from Heathrow to Salt Lake City, & another aircraft told the Russian Aircraft would pass 4 miles behind him.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,424 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    It wouldn't be outrageous at all.

    Simon Coveney himself acknowledged the need for a military grade primary radar as a first step.

    After that there are a good many solutions that could be examined for aircraft. The Czech Republic leases from Sweden 12 x Gripen multirole supersonic jets since 2004 until 2027 for about €80 million a year. That includes tech support and training and upgrades. Thats less than 10% of even our meagre defence budget in a country that takes in 60 billion a year in taxes. Between that and the primary radar, both of which the EU may well co-fund, we'd have a very good standard of air defence for our needs.

    Cool, 80 to 100 million p/a for the jets ... Add in a few Bob to get jet trainers , do you need hardened hangers ? ,Fuel would be relatively small ...
    Now we start to hit the big cost ... Staff... 3 crews per plane ? Each Being 1 pilot , 1 technician and 5(?) More ,
    And that's not even the maintenance crowd ... Then the hierarchy above them , and the trainers ,stores and logistics ,
    So maybe 1 and half to double the size of the aer corp... And a lot more highly trained / expensive ,difficult to hold onto staff ...

    Now ,what this air Force actually for ? Defending the state ? From who ? ( Because who we're defending ourselves from kinda defines the numbers of planes and their type ) ,
    Does having 12 or 24 or whatever planes make the state safer ,or does it make it a target ..

    Now if Ireland decides it no longer wants to be neutral ,and get involved in European defence or. Nato ,then that's different again ....

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,103 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    MISTY12 flight today with escort from RAF Lakenheath F15’s. What a beauty the B2 Stealth is. Pictures courtesy US Air Forces Europe.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,103 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    Today’s intercept by the RAF, pictures courtesy of the RAF. These are Russian Air Force TU-160 Blackjack Bombers they are supersonic heavy strategic bombers & are capable of carrying nuclear weapons.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,773 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Cool, 80 to 100 million p/a for the jets ... Add in a few Bob to get jet trainers , do you need hardened hangers ? ,Fuel would be relatively small ...
    Now we start to hit the big cost ... Staff... 3 crews per plane ? Each Being 1 pilot , 1 technician and 5(?) More ,
    And that's not even the maintenance crowd ... Then the hierarchy above them , and the trainers ,stores and logistics ,
    So maybe 1 and half to double the size of the aer corp... And a lot more highly trained / expensive ,difficult to hold onto staff ...

    Now ,what this air Force actually for ? Defending the state ? From who ? ( Because who we're defending ourselves from kinda defines the numbers of planes and their type ) ,
    Does having 12 or 24 or whatever planes make the state safer ,or does it make it a target ..

    Now if Ireland decides it no longer wants to be neutral ,and get involved in European defence or. Nato ,then that's different again ....

    Yes all correct as regards manpower, I don't believe we need hardened hangars, but we do need air stations beyond Baldonnell, closer to the Atlantic, I would put a flight of two QRA in both Kerry and Sligo Airports, with associated facilities for fuelling, basic maintenance and crew accommodation.

    I agree too about the manpower issue, but I believe the attraction of fast jets dovetailed with a mandatory 5 or 7 years post attestation service would more than cover it. I would think you are looking at perhaps 40 pilot officers and 50 or 60 ground technicians covering minimum 9 of 12 aircraft operational at one time. An element of that would already be in service.

    Would a jet capability make the State a target? I don't see why it would. From whom would be defending the air land and sea territory? Clearly the Russian military who have taken an aggressive stance in Western European territory and seek to operate their heavy warplanes with impunity. I don't advocate NATO membership right now and that is precisely why I contend we need an independent air defence capability, as the current arrangement heavily dilutes our military non-alignment. Operation of jets would also allow us to cooperate with our neutral and PfP colleagues in training and peace enforcement, including providing combat air cover for our own peacekeeping and peace enforcement operations in Mali, for example.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,684 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    Norwegian's deployed their F35's for the first time in this role and got up close to the Russian's.

    f-35_photo_forsvaret.jpg?itok=5GceB4Aw

    tu-142_and_mig-31-1000x562.jpeg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,424 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Yes all correct as regards manpower, I don't believe we need hardened hangars, but we do need air stations beyond Baldonnell, closer to the Atlantic, I would put a flight of two QRA in both Kerry and Sligo Airports, with associated facilities for fuelling, basic maintenance and crew accommodation.

    I agree too about the manpower issue, but I believe the attraction of fast jets dovetailed with a mandatory 5 or 7 years post attestation service would more than cover it. I would think you are looking at perhaps 40 pilot officers and 50 or 60 ground technicians covering minimum 9 of 12 aircraft operational at one time. An element of that would already be in service.

    Would a jet capability make the State a target? I don't see why it would. From whom would be defending the air land and sea territory? Clearly the Russian military who have taken an aggressive stance in Western European territory and seek to operate their heavy warplanes with impunity. I don't advocate NATO membership right now and that is precisely why I contend we need an independent air defence capability, as the current arrangement heavily dilutes our military non-alignment. Operation of jets would also allow us to cooperate with our neutral and PfP colleagues in training and peace enforcement, including providing combat air cover for our own peacekeeping and peace enforcement operations in Mali, for example.

    Wow, combat air cover in West Africa .... So how many more planes and crews over the 9 to 12 mythical grippens are you thinking ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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