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Greens demand improved public transport take priority over Cork/Limerick motorway

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    #32
    sid waddell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭sid waddell


    correct horse battery staple wrote: »
    There's 5x that amount in county if not more. Road would serve more people

    And how many of them are west of Galway city?


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    #33
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    correct horse battery staple wrote: »
    Why does it have to be either or choice? Bypass takes cars out of city that don't need to go there freeing up roads for public transport

    Bypass doesn't take car out of the city is the problem . It hasn't worked in Dublin , London or anywhere . All bypasses do is encourage even more demand. This will be Galway's second bypass/ring road least you forget. Allocation space to cycling and buses takes cars out of cities , banning cars takes out of cities . Motorway just get even more cars to the edge of cities to get stuck in traffic

    Not even the designers of the bypass are claiming it will reduced traffic
    https://twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1234438833397211136


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    #34
    efanton
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭efanton


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    You do know that roads require huge subsidies and cost the country Billions too? We've tried roads it was a failure , your solution to try the failed policy again for some reason?

    So the N7 out side of the Dublin sprawl was a failure?
    THe N8 another failure?
    The M6 to Galway yet another failure?
    By building those motorways it made those route viable for private bus companies. If they were not built the only services would be state run and probably subsidised by the state. I'm sure you just want another excuse to pay more taxation.

    Building motorways such as the M50 slap bang in the middle of cities was and will continue to be a failure. But why were they built, because the government took the cheap option, it wasn't about providing quicker commuting times, or addressing the grid lock, it was simply cheaper than build more Luas lines or more lines for commuter trains.

    But building motorways between cities does offer good value for money, does significantly reduce gridlock in towns along the existing roads and does provide a new openings for private bus companies to offer new routes.


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    #35
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    correct horse battery staple wrote: »
    You know that episode of Sampsons with the monorail song and a snake oil salesman?

    You know that episode of the Simpsons where Bart repeatedly tries to steal the cupcake because he never learns?


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    #36
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    correct horse battery staple wrote: »
    You suggesting luas in Galway city would help people in connemara?
    There's only one crossing over corrib, the rest are 3 small medieval bridges that should be pedestrianised (and or bus only) once bypass is built. To West you have a hospital and university that serves a million people in West, not to mention large housing estates which where built on opposite side of town from most employers
    It would because some of the people in Galway who could avail of the Luas wouldn't drive. So there would be more room for those that had to drive


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    #37
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    efanton wrote: »
    So the N7 out side of the Dublin sprawl was a failure?
    THe N8 another failure?
    The M6 to Galway yet another failure?
    By building those motorways it made those route viable for private bus companies. If they were not built the only services would be state run and probably subsidised by the state. I'm sure you just want another excuse to pay more taxation.

    Building motorways such as the M50 slap bang in the middle of cities was and will continue to be a failure. But why were they built, because the government took the cheap option, it wasn't about providing quicker commuting times, or addressing the grid lock, it was simply cheaper than build more Luas lines or more lines for commuter trains.

    But building motorways between cities does offer good value for money, does significantly reduce gridlock in towns along the existing roads and does provide a new openings for private bus companies to offer new routes.
    The m50 wasn't in the middle of the city when it was planned and built. It encouraged the sprawling of the city out to and beyond it. Roads are often only cheaper because they are split into phases like the M11.


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    #38
    sid waddell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭sid waddell


    correct horse battery staple wrote: »
    You suggesting luas in Galway city would help people in connemara?
    There's only one crossing over corrib, the rest are 3 small medieval bridges that should be pedestrianised (and or bus only) once bypass is built. To West you have a hospital and university that serves a million people in West, not to mention large housing estates which where built on opposite side of town from most employers

    You're the person that suggested there are masses of people living west of Galway city, not me.

    The hospital and university are beside each other. There are pillars in the Corrib from the old railway bridge that could easily accommodate a new light rail bridge and the line could go directly into NUIG, serving the hospital too.


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    #39
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    correct horse battery staple wrote: »
    How many exactly is "some"? That would be able to avail of this monorail

    And where would tracks go? Very interested in how this wouldn't result in demolition of thousands of homes at time when there's severe housing shortage in Galway

    Several tens of thousands. Space would be taken from Cars . Thousands of homes? Are you having a laugh?Worst case scenario a few houses on corners might . Luas in Dublin had nearly no CPO


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    #40
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    correct horse battery staple wrote: »
    Where exactly? There's a detailed plan for a bypass, where are the plans for a gluas
    Your clearly the type who only ever sees the car as the solution


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    #41
    sid waddell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭sid waddell


    correct horse battery staple wrote: »
    There are masses of people who have no choice to travel West of city, be it hospital, university or all the residential and amenity areas to West of a river and long lake with one modern crossing. Hospital alone serves a catchment area of a million people from Donegal to Limerick

    Show us a plan for this monorail very interested in how many buildings would need to be demolished. You identified a possible bridging point yet ignore that one side is full of modern and expensive university buildings and other side is biggest shopping area with a park on one side and dense housing on other.

    Real interested in light rail wet dreams now, at least a monorail would be elevated off the ground :D

    Over 40 houses are to be demolished under plans for the bypass.

    A route through NUIG could be easily negotiated.

    It's quite easy to map out a route.

    Barna - around the back of Barna Woods - Western Distributor Road - Seamus Quirke Road - Hospital/ NUIG - across the Corrib to the start of Dyke Road - Prospect Hill - Eyre Square - Forster Street or Lough Atalia Road - Monivea Road - Mervue - GMIT.


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    #42
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,680 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    As someone who might be negatively effected by the Motorway plan and given the high handed nature of the planners involved a decade ago about concerns over this, the Greens have a realistic point about public transport being better for all citizens not just motorists.


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    #43
    efanton
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭efanton


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Bypass doesn't take car out of the city is the problem . It hasn't worked in Dublin , London or anywhere . All bypasses do is encourage even more demand. This will be Galway's second bypass/ring road least you forget. Allocation space to cycling and buses takes cars out of cities , banning cars takes out of cities . Motorway just get even more cars to the edge of cities to get stuck in traffic

    Not even the designers of the bypass are claiming it will reduced traffic
    https://twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1234438833397211136

    THe problem thogh is not the bypasses is it?

    Its the stupidity of the government to almost immediately rezone the land around them for residential and commercial use. Almost immediately the bypass is now expected to handle significantly more traffic than it was designed for.

    Again governments taking the cheap option. Instead of putting a by pass significantly further out to allow for the expansion of a town or city they allow it to become nothing more than a feeder road to retail complexes and huge estates.
    The bypass was not a bad idea, it was the planning and rezoning that was a bad idea.


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    #44
    efanton
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭efanton


    Manach wrote: »
    As someone who might be negatively effected by the Motorway plan and given the high handed nature of the planners involved a decade ago about concerns over this, the Greens have a realistic point about public transport being better for all citizens not just motorists.

    If you are talking about the N20, what the Green's have proposed comes nowhere close to being realistic.

    How would you propose that sufficient public transport be provided to negate the construction of the N20? More to the point exactly how much will that cost?


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    #45
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    Chips Lovell wrote: »
    Whatever about inter-city motorways, the M50 expansion is a classic case of Jevons' Paradox. If you look at the census data, it's evident that there's a huge swathe of commuters in Dublin who're driving to work not out of necessity, but out of choice.

    Expanding the M50 would be crazy. However M50 as it currently stands is good for the city. Its the only crossing of the liffey that's capable of handling large amounts of traffic. Between chaploizod and Lucan, the M50 toll Bridge is the only crossing of the liffey. Both bridges are decades if not centuries old at this stage. Take away the M50 and the city would grind to a halt. To expand on your point relating to Dublin there is a considerable amount of people in Dublin who drive to work by choice not only on the M50 but other parts of the city. There is a good argument for more tolling on the M50 and a congestion charge in Dublin City centre.

    However all of that is a completely separate to debate about the proposed M20 motorway. The purpose of such a motorway would be to handle intercity traffic and support regional development and make the existing road safer. It wouldn't be a bypass of either Cork or Limerick. The aims are completely different. It's not a case of motorway bad, public transport good or vice versa. It depends on the situation.


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    #46
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    efanton wrote: »
    If you are talking about the N20, what the Green's have proposed comes nowhere close to being realistic.

    How would you propose that sufficient public transport be provided to negate the construction of the N20? More to the point exactly how much will that cost?

    Train to Limerick to Cork in 30 minutes would certainly beat any such road


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    #47
    efanton
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭efanton


    Currently the N20 is being used at 120% of its capacity.
    Approximately 18,000 vehicles per day.

    Just to bring the N20 back to its full capacity level that would mean removing the need for 3,600 vehicles to use that road

    THese are 2017 figures so it logical to assume they have increased
    https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/m20-executive-summary-june-2017.pdf

    I'm all for environmental measures if they can be put in place, but can someone suggest to me how you are going to provide enough public transport to remove the use of over 3,600 vehicles per day from the N20?


    There are usually 56 passenger seats on a bus.
    That would be at least 65 coach loads at capacity per day, and thats assuming single occupancy of all vehicles. Coaches operate for 13 hours.
    That would be an additional 6 busses running every hour (3 each way) from Cork to Limerick, again assuming single occupancy of vehicles.
    Obviously you would have to increase that number of coaches because traffic is not spread evenly during the day. Lets be reasonable and increase that to 5 busses each way to allow for that and allow for a small number of additional seats, and we are still assuming single occupancy for the vehicle removed so in all likely hood yet another two

    Thats at least 14 additional busses plus the two that are currently servicing that route.
    Bus Eireann uses the IRIZAR i6AD2 coach which come in at a hefty €235,000 a piece.
    12 of these coaches will cost €3.3 million.

    There is no way that the towns along the N20 could possible handle that amount of coaches. There hardly room for one to park let alone two.

    Now on top of that you are now going to have to provide feeder busses to get people from the towns and villages that are not on the N20.
    Probably another dozen at least (although cheaper and smaller) as its a fairly long route and the villages and towns are spread too far apart for less busses to cover that area. Now even this might not work because journey times for commuters will have significantly increased, why take 1.5 hours to go to work if you can do it in an hour in your own car, will be the attitude of many

    In addition to all that you are still going to have to build the Charleville, Buttevant and Mallow bypasses.

    Seriously, can anyone see this possibly working?


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    #48
    efanton
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭efanton


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Train to Limerick to Cork in 30 minutes would certainly beat any such road

    Do you just read your own posts. I have already explained why the trains would not work.

    THe VAST MAJORITY of people using the N20 do not live in Cork or Limerick, they use the N20 to commute to them. What good is a express train that travels from Limerick Junction to Cork city if it doesn't stop anywhere in between.
    You forgot about the additional train journey required to get from Limerick city to Limerick junction by the way, another 20 to 30 minutes assuming the trains are on time which is not always the case. Sometimes the express train has to wait at Limerick Junction for the connection. Also those trains are already at full capacity by the time the get to Limerick so are we going to buy more trains now along with dozens of busses?
    I have done that journey many times and I can guarantee you even with the appalling traffic a car is still quicker.


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    #49
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    abcabc123123 wrote: »
    Building new motorways ... increases emissions.
    My EV doesn't increase emissions because it is powered by renewable energy.
    By 2030 ICE cars will be banned in Ireland so people like me won't be in the minority.
    Ireland is already producing 33% of electricity from renewable sources and if the Green party had their priorities in order that will be closer to 100% by then.
    Also, I regularly take intercity buses on the motorway network. I've even taken electric buses inter-city.
    Motorways are the conduit for emission free public transport. They are not the problem.
    I'm very thankful that the M4/M6 were approved before the Greens could scupper them.


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    #50
    efanton
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭efanton


    Deleted User wrote: »
    My EV doesn't increase emissions because it is powered by renewable energy.
    By 2030 ICE cars will be banned in Ireland so people like me won't be in the minority.
    Ireland is already producing 33% of electricity from renewable sources and if the Green party had their priorities in order that will be closer to 100% by then.
    Also, I regularly take intercity buses on the motorway network. I've even taken electric buses inter-city.
    Motorways are the conduit for emission free public transport. They are not the problem.
    I'm very thankful that the M4/M6 were approved before the Greens could scupper them.

    In any other country that would be true.
    But have you thought about what fuels are used to generate that electricity?
    70% of electricity generation in Ireland is produced through the use of fossil fuels.

    Then add to that that nearly 8% of all electricity generated is lost during transmission over the grid and electric vehicles are not as friendly and many would hope at the moment.
    Having said that Ireland is slowly reducing its reliance on fossil fuels for electricity generation and we should be in reasonably good shape in 10 years time.
    ESB are currently doing a overhaul of the national grid to reduce transmission loss but that will take longer.

    A lad I know who works in the electricity sector worked out that it is actually greener to still use an 600cc petrol engine motorcycle than switch to a electric motorcycle based on those figures.
    For a 800 cc engine he reckons that you are at break even where a petrol engine is no better or worse than electric. A 1 litre petrol car is marginally worse for the environment.
    Then apparently as you go up in engine capacity the impact on the environment dramatically rises.
    Obviously this will change rapidly as less fossil fuels are used to generate electricity.


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    #51
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't need to think about it as I know my employer buys electricity from renewable sources for everything on campus.


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    #52
    efanton
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭efanton


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I don't need to think about it as I know my employer buys electricity from renewable sources for everything on campus.

    You cant buy only renewable electricity, not unless you are on a separate grid.
    The electricity generated by wind, solar, hydro and fossil all goes over the same grid

    You might be buying electricity from a producer that only uses renewable energy to generate electricity, but I would imagine they are selling more electricity than they themselves generate. Some of that electricity will still be from fossil fuel but its good that most is not.

    I'm not knocking it, its progress and the direction the country needs to move towards.


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    #53
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    efanton wrote: »
    Do you just read your own posts. I have already explained why the trains would not work.

    THe VAST MAJORITY of people using the N20 do not live in Cork or Limerick, they use the N20 to commute to them. What good is a express train that travels from Limerick Junction to Cork city if it doesn't stop anywhere in between.
    You forgot about the additional train journey required to get from Limerick city to Limerick junction by the way, another 20 to 30 minutes assuming the trains are on time which is not always the case. Sometimes the express train has to wait at Limerick Junction for the connection. Also those trains are already at full capacity by the time the get to Limerick so are we going to buy more trains now along with dozens of busses?
    you even with the appalling traffic a car is still quicker.
    Yes we should buy a them. You make it sound like a mad idea


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    #54
    efanton
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭efanton


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Get with the program. I've deconstructed one of ABCABC123123's arguments/cornerstones of Green dogma i.e. emissions
    deconstruct one of his other ones.

    Well it doesn't and not because of using electric cars.

    A car going at a constant speed uses less fuel than a car that stops and goes.
    The higher the temperature a fuel burns at the cleaner the emissions.
    Also if a car is stationary for 10 minutes due to traffic congestion the engine is producing emissions that would not have been produced had the car been on a motorway.
    So its a reduction in emissions on three fronts.

    Finally, where do you want those emissions to go?
    On a motorway, or in a built up area where pedestrians are breathing in those emissions?


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    #55
    efanton
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭efanton


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Yes we should buy a them. You make it sound like a mad idea

    It is a mad idea. think about it.

    In cities and large towns busses make a huge amount of sense. 56 people in a single vehicle has to be better than 56 people in 20 or 30 cars.

    But to introduce public transport as a alternative for the N20 in a mostly rural are is ridiculous.
    First there is not the infrastructure to handle the extra coaches and busses.
    Where are all the loading bays for these twenty additional coaches to load passengers in Cork or Limerick. Both bus stations are already at capacity, so not only are you going to have to buy all these coaches you are going to have to build two new bus stations.

    But lets imagine you did that.
    you live in a village and the nearest bus stop in more than 5 miles away.
    What do you suggest they do drive to a bus stop?
    THe alternative is to provide feeder busses to take commuters form where they live to the nearest bust stop on the N20. Have you any idea of the number of villages that you would have to cater for. You would need literally dozens of small feeder busses to shuttle commuters to their village to the nearest stop no the N20. Then what about the thousands of people that dont live in a village or town but would have to walk a few miles to their nearest stop. Do you honestly think that will be inclined to do that when its pissing rain.
    Where are all these new local busses going to be store over night?
    and finally all you have done is increase journey times dramatically for these commuters. Do you honest think people are going to spend 4 or 5 hours a day commuting on busses and still do 8 or more hours work? Or would they be more inclined to save themselves a hour ot two to spend with their kids and family and just use the car?

    Busses simply are not a feasible solution for rural areas such as North Cork., and not doubt the cost of this service will be horrendous.


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    #56
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    You know that episode of the Simpsons where Bart repeatedly tries to steal the cupcake because he never learns?

    Irrelevant.

    Building motorways between cities is a good thing, improves delivery times, saves lives etc. Look at the connectivity between Cork and Dublin and Belfast and Dublin compared to 20 years ago.

    There's no reason why Limerick and Cork should not be connected by motorway.

    Building roads in and around city centres should be shelved in favour of better public transport


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    #57
    beggars_bush
    Registered Users Posts: 4,388 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    Build motorway with railway running alongside


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    #58
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    efanton wrote: »
    It is a mad idea. think about it.

    In cities and large towns busses make a huge amount of sense. 56 people in a single vehicle has to be better than 56 people in 20 or 30 cars.

    But to introduce public transport as a alternative for the N20 in a mostly rural are is ridiculous.
    First there is not the infrastructure to handle the extra coaches and busses.
    Where are all the loading bays for these twenty additional coaches to load passengers in Cork or Limerick. Both bus stations are already at capacity, so not only are you going to have to buy all these coaches you are going to have to build two new bus stations.

    But lets imagine you did that.
    you live in a village and the nearest bus stop in more than 5 miles away.
    What do you suggest they do drive to a bus stop?
    THe alternative is to provide feeder busses to take commuters form where they live to the nearest bust stop on the N20. Have you any idea of the number of villages that you would have to cater for. You would need literally dozens of small feeder busses to shuttle commuters to their village to the nearest stop no the N20. Then what about the thousands of people that dont live in a village or town but would have to walk a few miles to their nearest stop. Do you honestly think that will be inclined to do that when its pissing rain.
    Where are all these new local busses going to be store over night?
    and finally all you have done is increase journey times dramatically for these commuters. Do you honest think people are going to spend 4 or 5 hours a day commuting on busses and still do 8 or more hours work? Or would they be more inclined to save themselves a hour ot two to spend with their kids and family and just use the car?

    Busses simply are not a feasible solution for rural areas such as North Cork., and not doubt the cost of this service will be horrendous.

    You already say the trains are full. Yet buying more trains and improving the service is a mad idea? Your agreement basically amount to you can't drive to America so let build no road. Of course PT isn't going to work for everyone but it can work for far more people than it currently does


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    #59
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    salonfire wrote: »
    Irrelevant.

    Building motorways between cities is a good thing, improves delivery times, saves lives etc. Look at the connectivity between Cork and Dublin and Belfast and Dublin compared to 20 years ago.

    There's no reason why Limerick and Cork should not be connected by motorway.

    Building roads in and around city centres should be shelved in favour of better public transport

    That's fairly much my point with the exception that I think we should build the PT first and the roads second


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    #60
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,053 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    salonfire wrote: »
    Irrelevant.

    Building motorways between cities is a good thing, improves delivery times, saves lives etc. Look at the connectivity between Cork and Dublin and Belfast and Dublin compared to 20 years ago.

    There's no reason why Limerick and Cork should not be connected by motorway.

    Building roads in and around city centres should be shelved in favour of better public transport

    This.


    Again, people are willfully getting the two mixed up.

    Are those people saying that the inter-urbans we built 10-15 years ago were a mistake?
    Do you think it was a mistake to build the M8 to Cork, reducting travel times from 4-5 hours to 2.5 hours?
    Or the M4 to Galway, the M7 to Limerick, the M11 towards Rosslare or the M1 to Belfast?

    These roads have been a boom to the economy and will pay for themsleves mulitple times. Remember, these roads to going to be with for over 100 years. Your great great grandkids will be driving their self driving electric cars on these very roads.

    What we have not done well though is Public Transport in urban areas, for reasons mentioned before.
    Saying we should prortise public transport ahead of road building, then advocate a rail link from Cork to Limerick, which will cost as much if not more, do nothing to sort out the N20 itself, and will not be used anywhere near as much as an M20 is just idealogical bull****.

    The Greens were advocating some sort of fantasy project when it came to the recent M28 dicussions. Instead they were toying with the idea of some rail connecter or some ****, even though 99% of containers and cargo is moved by HGV's... rail freight on this island is dead! Yet, like usefull idiots they harp on about ideas, referring to their idealogical purity rather than sensible solutions.

    And yes, yes, yes, yes we should be pouring billions into public transport projects into Dublin and other urban areas. BusConnects should be expeditated as well as the Metro Link. You will never get a no from me, when it comes to bus lanes and good quality cycle lanes in our urban areas.

    As I said before, the likes of Holland, Sweden, Denmark do this stuff in their urban areas, but guess what they also have motorways connecting their cities!


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    #61
    efanton
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭efanton


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    You already say the trains are full. Yet buying more trains and improving the service is a mad idea? Your agreement basically amount to you can't drive to America so let build no road. Of course PT isn't going to work for everyone but it can work for far more people than it currently does

    Unless you are going to build more train tracks so that these trains don't crash, YES it is a totally mad idea.

    You have two tracks, one going north one going south, you are advocating putting an extra train on each track that is going significantly slower than the express train from Dublin to Cork or vice versa. Can you seriously think that something bad might not happen?

    Do you actually think through an argument before posting? Obvious not.

    Even if there is no collision what you have achieved is the express train is no longer being an express train because now it has to stop at every station a commuter train must stop. It is no long an express train, no longer economically viable and now there will be increased traffic on the roads.
    In effect you have made matters far worse. All this to benefit far less people than building motorway as you have previous admitted.
    PT isn't going to work for everyone but it can work for far more people

    The obvious solution would be to build a third track, but because trains need a relatively level course, this would mean significant, and I mean really significant, civil engineering. You would have to cut through many geologic formation, bridge many rivers, at some locations not even be able to run a track parallel to the existing rail lines. The cost of this would likely be very close to or exceeding the cost of building a new motorway and that is not even considering the cost of the new trains you want to put on these tracks.

    Even if you somehow managed to build this new rail line, you still have not eliminated the multiple deaths and serious injuries caused by a national road unfit for purpose. Nor have have you dealt with the issue of commuters getting to train stations.

    I suggest that you either live in a rural areas for a while, or actually think through thoroughly any proposed scheme the Green party had before making a fool of yourself.
    There is an extremely good reason why the Green party do not cost their manifesto's, its simply because they are currently totally both un-affordable an unfeasible. Hopefully in the future when the capital expenditure projects that should have been put in place a decade or more ago are consruct we can the think to how we can make the country more environmentally friendly. I would love nothing more personally than a environmentally friendly way of commuting, but first you must have the infrastructure in place to achieve those aims.

    Personally I have always given the Green party a transfer vote, not because I believe they could possibly deliver a fraction of what is in their manifesto, but because it make other parties think twice about the environment before proceeding with a capital expenditure.
    Sadly my logic was was proven totally wrong, if this project is cancelled the green party will ever get my vote or a transfer again, and no doubt thousands of people in Munster share that view.

    What the green party is currently doing is killing any support they might gather and more importantly any influence they might have on other parties that do hold the country's purse strings.


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