Will you travel? [Mod Note in Post #1 - Travel Discussion Only! Megathread]

Nijmegen

I think people are really underestimating what's going to happen down in Spain etc when the tourists arrive. All well and good to say they have low cases now, but what happens when a load of holidaymakers are at the beaches and in the bars and the hotels? We've seen in the UK for example how some plank headed individuals behave when the sun comes out and they get down to the beach. We've seen in the US a big spike in several states where they re-opened the bars.

I think the people going first are like the first wave on D-Day - Maybe you land on one of the beaches where they basically strolled inland. Or maybe you land on Omaha beach and it's a bloodbath. We don't know right now. All we know is that people who go abroad are either going to get to be smug about it or be deleting the photos in a few weeks time depending on whether or not Covid spikes and RTE is in James's doing another harrowing documentary.

Seems like a risk it's worth not taking, to be honest. But it's not just you taking the risk - I'll be taking it too if we brush past one another in Dunne's when you get back.

josip

Nijmegen wrote: »

Seems like a risk it's worth not taking, to be honest. But it's not just you taking the risk - I'll be taking it too if we brush past one another in Dunne's when you get back.

If you live near us, you were taking the same risk when you were in Dunnes in May and early June brushing past all the people not observing any social distancing on our local beach.

yoshimitsu

I'd take advice from the WHO and ECDC over Dr. Holohan's any day, on any medical matter.
I've lived in Italy, Switzerland, Spain, US and UK and Ireland ranks the lowest in terms of healthcare policies IMO. I dont want to single out GPs and consultants given that in 12 years living here I've dealt with some very professional and capable people but the broad policies per se, in some instances, are 10+ yrs behind other developed nations where I've had first hand experience. Quite shocking at times

Plumbthedepths

Nijmegen wrote: »

Seems like a risk it's worth not taking, to be honest. But it's not just you taking the risk - I'll be taking it too if we brush past one another in Dunne's when you get back.

When did the close contact definition change? Do you regularly brush past people in Dunnes?. You really should wear a mask if you can't or won't practice SD.

TheDriver

Nijmegen wrote: »

I think people are really underestimating what's going to happen down in Spain etc when the tourists arrive. All well and good to say they have low cases now, but what happens when a load of holidaymakers are at the beaches and in the bars and the hotels? We've seen in the UK for example how some plank headed individuals behave when the sun comes out and they get down to the beach. We've seen in the US a big spike in several states where they re-opened the bars.

I think the people going first are like the first wave on D-Day - Maybe you land on one of the beaches where they basically strolled inland. Or maybe you land on Omaha beach and it's a bloodbath. We don't know right now. All we know is that people who go abroad are either going to get to be smug about it or be deleting the photos in a few weeks time depending on whether or not Covid spikes and RTE is in James's doing another harrowing documentary.

Seems like a risk it's worth not taking, to be honest. But it's not just you taking the risk - I'll be taking it too if we brush past one another in Dunne's when you get back.

Spain's beaches are patrolled and controlled. Likewise the pools. Whereas in UK, the patrol turns up after the beach is packed.

OMM 0000

The wife and I are looking at how we can have a safe holiday at the moment. Our logic is very unscientific, but it goes like this:

* Choose a coastal location where there are no known cases of COVID so far (or at least, very few cases). For example, there are some small towns which haven't recorded any cases yet. (I know this doesn't mean there's no cases, but at least it suggests it's not a hotspot).

* Choose an airy, spacious hotel. For example, with a balcony and large hotel garden and access to the beach. Basically minimise the amount of shared indoor spaces.

* Clean our room on arrival with antiseptic wipes. Doesn't need to be perfect but get all the things we will obviously touch - door handles, taps, shower heads, bedside table, etc.

* Wear masks when walking around the hotel.

* Keep good hand hygiene.

That's it really. Not too troublesome and probably reduces our risk to almost zero.

Nijmegen

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

When did the close contact definition change? Do you regularly brush past people in Dunnes?. You really should wear a mask if you can't or won't practice SD.

I wear a mask out in shops, unlike most people. And the rate of infection is highly dependent on the amount of total cases floating around. You can pick it up anywhere you share a space with other people and often like driving you can be the safest in the world and get taken out by the idiot nonetheless. I was standing in a socially distanced queue in a shop the other day and a lad came up and leaned right in front of me to pick up something off the shelf, no mask. Didn't ask me to move or anything like that. The more covid we traipse back from other places, if that does occur, the more opportunities for interactions like that to spread the disease.

RoryMac

Nijmegen wrote: »

I think people are really underestimating what's going to happen down in Spain etc when the tourists arrive. All well and good to say they have low cases now, but what happens when a load of holidaymakers are at the beaches and in the bars and the hotels? We've seen in the UK for example how some plank headed individuals behave when the sun comes out and they get down to the beach. We've seen in the US a big spike in several states where they re-opened the bars.

I think the people going first are like the first wave on D-Day - Maybe you land on one of the beaches where they basically strolled inland. Or maybe you land on Omaha beach and it's a bloodbath. We don't know right now. All we know is that people who go abroad are either going to get to be smug about it or be deleting the photos in a few weeks time depending on whether or not Covid spikes and RTE is in James's doing another harrowing documentary.

Seems like a risk it's worth not taking, to be honest. But it's not just you taking the risk - I'll be taking it too if we brush past one another in Dunne's when you get back.

A lot of the issues you have outlined will be an even bigger risk staying in Ireland when places like Killarney and Wexford get busy but in Spain it's mandatory to wear face masks in public places where social distance can't be ensured and on the beaches they have marked out areas and are patrolling them to ensure guidelines are being kept to. The Spanish police are dishing out on the spot fines to people not adhering to the rules.

We have no such restrictions and tbh I'd feel far safer in Spain than I would here when peak season arrives and pubs are packed to the gills

snotboogie

SimonTemplar wrote: »

What about ferries?

If it was a roll on roll off within a few hours ferry it would likely greatly reduce risk however all of the ferries to mainland Europe take 15 hours+ and have people leaving their cars to mull around onboard like its a cruise ship.

TheDriver

We had rules that aren't being adhered to:
a) funerals: there have been big funerals lately with key people at them and no distancing observed
b) Public transport: I'm seeing plenty being allowed onto buses without masks even though it is now mandatory
c) Dressing rooms/pubs/hardware/clothes: even since the start in March, you could buy clothes in tesco but not a clothes shop, you can try on things in 1 shop but not another, hardware shops open when they shouldn't etc etc.

From middle of March, the rules have been bent and bent by suppliers/retailers/general public.

But now to add to the list of Chinese, Italians, rugby matches, berry pickers from Bulgaria etc etc, we now have foreign travel to hate for a few days until the next craze comes along.

Nijmegen

RoryMac wrote: »

A lot of the issues you have outlined will be an even bigger risk staying in Ireland when places like Killarney and Wexford get busy but in Spain it's mandatory to wear face masks in public places where social distance can't be ensured and on the beaches they have marked out areas and are patrolling them to ensure guidelines are being kept to. The Spanish police are dishing out on the spot fines to people not adhering to the rules.

We have no such restrictions and tbh I'd feel far safer in Spain than I would here when peak season arrives and pubs are packed to the gills

I think that's a fair comment. But statistically if we go back a few months to all of the great explainers about how pandemics operate, a key thing I came away with was the opportunity for the virus to jump between otherwise separated groups. So yes in inter-Irish travel, we risk bringing cases from Dublin to Killarney. But we also risk bringing cases from Spain to Ireland via the UK, and the total number of live infections drives exponentially the rate of expansion.

It is true that we could be doing better, eg mandatory masks. But saying "Well they have them and we don't" is still separate to the amount of opportunities for spread you create when you have active travel abroad.

josip

snotboogie wrote: »

If it was a roll on roll off within a few hours ferry it would likely greatly reduce risk however all of the ferries to mainland Europe take 15 hours+ and have people leaving their cars to mull around onboard like its a cruise ship.

You've obviously never done Landbridge.

boetstark

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

I have as much chance of contacting it in Portugal than I do have here. Portugals alot safer as face masks are mandotary, social distancing is observed and the police are everywhere ensuring rules are adhered too, the opposite to Ireland

Yeah right. You will be mixing with nationalities that were riddled with c19. How is social distancing going to be enforced in check in queues.
Look each to their own but ground level medical opinion , not holohan are asking people not to travel

Plumbthedepths

TheDriver wrote: »

We had rules that aren't being adhered to:
a) funerals: there have been big funerals lately with key people at them and no distancing observed
b) Public transport: I'm seeing plenty being allowed onto buses without masks even though it is now mandatory
c) Dressing rooms/pubs/hardware/clothes: even since the start in March, you could buy clothes in tesco but not a clothes shop, you can try on things in 1 shop but not another, hardware shops open when they shouldn't etc etc.

From middle of March, the rules have been bent and bent by suppliers/retailers/general public.

But now to add to the list of Chinese, Italians, rugby matches, berry pickers from Bulgaria etc etc, we now have foreign travel to hate for a few days until the next craze comes along.

It's almost like a certain cohort wish to latch on to something and shout 'second wave ' ad nauesuem.

faceman

Nijmegen wrote: »

I think people are really underestimating what's going to happen down in Spain etc when the tourists arrive. All well and good to say they have low cases now, but what happens when a load of holidaymakers are at the beaches and in the bars and the hotels? We've seen in the UK for example how some plank headed individuals behave when the sun comes out and they get down to the beach. We've seen in the US a big spike in several states where they re-opened the bars.

I think the people going first are like the first wave on D-Day - Maybe you land on one of the beaches where they basically strolled inland. Or maybe you land on Omaha beach and it's a bloodbath. We don't know right now. All we know is that people who go abroad are either going to get to be smug about it or be deleting the photos in a few weeks time depending on whether or not Covid spikes and RTE is in James's doing another harrowing documentary.

Seems like a risk it's worth not taking, to be honest. But it's not just you taking the risk - I'll be taking it too if we brush past one another in Dunne's when you get back.

I think you’re underestimating the preparation Spain (and quite frankly, most of the EU) have put in to reopening borders and their lockdowns. Mandatory enforced social distancing and mask wearing. Neither of which are in place in Ireland. Look at the farce with bars in Ireland. No enforcement or fines for bars found in breach. Reduced social distancing etc.

Spain’s borders have been reopened since 21st June. There was a pilot scheme with tourists from Germany prior to that.

Regional presidents have powers to roll back areas if there is an outbreak to ensure swift controls are in place. Hundreds of people have been enrolled to patrol beaches and we have seen how effective this has been when a beach closed in Ibiza recently as it was reaching capacity. Social distance spacing is marked on beaches.

Spanish airports have automated temperate machines and will start testing incoming travellers with the new “spit test” that is being trialled in labs across Europe if it gets approved.

Ireland appears to have done very little other than provide unenforced guidelines.

Spikes in the virus will happen until it’s eradicated. It took 5 years to eradicate smallpox in the 70’s from when the western world started manufacturing a vaccine. The reality is we can’t close countries and economies for anything close to that. Spain and Germany have already demonstrated how they are managing any potential spikes and outbreaks. Can we say that Ireland will have similar speedy responses at a local level?

Nijmegen

faceman wrote: »

I think you’re underestimating the preparation Spain (and quite frankly, most of the EU) have put in to reopening borders and their lockdowns. Mandatory enforced social distancing and mask wearing. Neither of which are in place in Ireland. Look at the farce with bars in Ireland. No enforcement or fines for bars found in breach. Reduced social distancing etc.

Spain’s borders have been reopened since 21st June. There was a pilot scheme with tourists from Germany prior to that.

Regional presidents have powers to roll back areas if there is an outbreak to ensure swift controls are in place. Hundreds of people have been enrolled to patrol beaches and we have seen how effective this has been when a beach closed in Ibiza recently as it was reaching capacity. Social distance spacing is marked on beaches.

Spanish airports have automated temperate machines and will start testing incoming travellers with the new “spit test” that is being trialled in labs across Europe if it gets approved.

Ireland appears to have done very little other than provide unenforced guidelines.

Spikes in the virus will happen until it’s eradicated. It took 5 years to eradicate smallpox in the 70’s from when the western world started manufacturing a vaccine. The reality is we can’t close countries and economies for anything close to that. Spain and Germany have already demonstrated how they are managing any potential spikes and outbreaks. Can we say that Ireland will have similar speedy responses at a local level?

These are all very fair points. Though I think arguing that Ireland is less well prepared than other European countries is an argument for restricting travel another few weeks to see exactly what does happen to those who land first on the beaches. The reality is that it will only be in the coming weeks that we will see if it is safe or not. People with itchy feet, as I say, will either get to be smug - I went, had fun, and no harm done - or they'll be quietly deleting the photos when NPHET publishes the transmission data and says "We've gone from nobody in ICU to X in ICU and this many cases were imported, driving the spike."

faceman

Nijmegen wrote: »

These are all very fair points. Though I think arguing that Ireland is less well prepared than other European countries is an argument for restricting travel another few weeks to see exactly what does happen to those who land first on the beaches. The reality is that it will only be in the coming weeks that we will see if it is safe or not. People with itchy feet, as I say, will either get to be smug - I went, had fun, and no harm done - or they'll be quietly deleting the photos when NPHET publishes the transmission data and says "We've gone from nobody in ICU to X in ICU and this many cases were imported, driving the spike."

You know, you’re absolutely right in your assessment. The government’s tactic is teeing up blame culture.

Not all people travelling are off on holiday. Not everyone travelling are flouting personal responsibility.

I think if anything Irish people are in for a bit of a culture shock on arrival in Spain and witnessing the new normal there.

Dante7

I'm sitting on a plane to Lanzarote now. There's about 30 people on it. Terminal 2 was very quiet. Had to go to T1 for McDonald's. In a few hours I'll be by the pool in a place that is covid free.

bladespin

Dante7 wrote: »

I'm sitting on a plane to Lanzarote now. There's about 30 people on it. Terminal 2 was very quiet. Had to go to T1 for McDonald's. In a few hours I'll be by the pool in a place that is covid free.

Enjoy, deeply envious

Thelonious Monk

faceman wrote: »

You know, you’re absolutely right in your assessment. The government’s tactic is teeing up blame culture.

Not all people travelling are off on holiday. Not everyone travelling are flouting personal responsibility.

I think if anything Irish people are in for a bit of a culture shock on arrival in Spain and witnessing the new normal there.

Yeah my ma was telling me only one of her and my dad could go out to the shops at a time, and wearing a mask, and had to have a letter stating where you were going and timestamped. The police pulled her over a couple of times, this a woman in her 60s, and the region they're in had very few cases.
I know it has nothing to do with travel bans but the difference between Spain and Ireland and the rules implemented is chalk and cheese. It was a personal choice to follow the rules here but in Spain it was actually upheld by the law.
As I said in another thread, I have friends who have already spent the whole day in pubs, drunk, here in Dublin. I don't think travel to safer EU countries is going to cause the 2nd wave.

Tenzor07

faceman wrote: »

Spikes in the virus will happen until it’s eradicated. It took 5 years to eradicate smallpox in the 70’s from when the western world started manufacturing a vaccine. The reality is we can’t close countries and economies for anything close to that. Spain and Germany have already demonstrated how they are managing any potential spikes and outbreaks. Can we say that Ireland will have similar speedy responses at a local level?

That's what people don't get, it could be another 2 years at least before an effective vaccine is available, and by then the rates of Covid will be extremely low.. and many people won't be in a rush to line up for it either.

Ireland went from Stay 2k from home, then 20k, then national, with no spikes in the virus, despite demonstrations, mass gathering house parties, and open borders with the UK..

Stay at home if you want, nothing will ever happen to you when your sat at home alone in front of your laptop until a cure is found, and let others get on with living their own life.

I just hope the new Government can get to work and get Ireland lots and lots more money from the EU to keep paying the heath service as well as Unemployment payments for the 100's of thousands of people who are on benefits now.

jonnny68

Dante7 wrote: »

I'm sitting on a plane to Lanzarote now. There's about 30 people on it. Terminal 2 was very quiet. Had to go to T1 for McDonald's. In a few hours I'll be by the pool in a place that is covid free.

super stuff, enjoy , wish i was going now have to wait another 2 months

Tenzor07

faceman wrote: »

You know, you’re absolutely right in your assessment. The government’s tactic is teeing up blame culture.
Not all people travelling are off on holiday. Not everyone travelling are flouting personal responsibility.
.

Very easy for the HSE/Government to blame Joe Public for there failures in tackling the pandemic, just like they blamed the cancer screening scandal on an "I.T glitch"

faceman

Dante7 wrote: »

I'm sitting on a plane to Lanzarote now. There's about 30 people on it. Terminal 2 was very quiet. Had to go to T1 for McDonald's. In a few hours I'll be by the pool in a place that is covid free.

Funny enough my only fear about flying this weekend is that the pilot will have forgotten how to fly because he’s been grounded for so long!

Bon voyage!

Dante7

The preflight safety routine has a new section on removing your mask before putting on oxygen mask.

copeyhagen

dont forget, in maniland spain (not sure about there) you need to have a mask on your eprsons at all times or its a 100e fine. theyre mandatory on public transport and shops.

under 6s exempt from masks

Strazdas

What's causing confusion is the mixed messages coming from the health authorities and the government. It's up to the Govt. to come out with a very clear position on travel in and out of the country.

It's a bit of a dilemma though. Banning normal flights in and out of the country for the rest of the year seems quite extreme, given that we are an island nation and have no land border with any EU state.

DulchieLaois

If the health authorities want us to stay home rather than travelling abroad, then ensure a system that allows me to get my money back And I be happy to do so, otherwise, stop talking about it.....actions speak louder than words

Zonda999

Strazdas wrote: »

It's a bit of a dilemma though. Banning normal flights in and out of the country for the rest of the year seems quite extreme, given that we are an island nation and have no land border with any EU state.

It would be and the government will not be taking that decision. In that case though, the government has to provide leadership and issue clear recommendations.

There are flights now going and as posters have said above, if flights are going then people will travel to a certain extent no matter what.

HalloweenJack

faceman wrote: »

I think if anything Irish people are in for a bit of a culture shock on arrival in Spain and witnessing the new normal there.

You can't enter supermarkets without a mask and washing your hands with gel or wearing gloves. This is enforced quite strictly. Lines pointing out distances everywhere. The gym is similar.

Bars/restaurants won't go beyond capacity. Any that do are quickly shut down or fined heftily. A lot of businesses have 'mask only' service.

The campaign here has been co-operation and shared responsibility and its worked wonders. I had my doubts about how Spaniards would take to being told what to do but I reckon how serious it got has convinced them.

The wearing of masks and using hand gel is done by the vast majority. Social distancing is harder as Spaniards are very touchy-feely but there is a noticeable and unfamiliar 'coldness' when greeting Spaniards now.