Disabled passengers left behind

ExoPolitic

Hi there,

I am curious as to the legality of scheduled coach operators who accept the free travel pass leaving behind disabled people when the coach has been filled with prepaid tickets. - A person with a free travel pass can not pre pay their ticket as there is nothing to be paid etc.

Under paragraph 3 article 9, the relating legislation can be found on this link;

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2011:055:0001:0012:EN:PDF

Where do operators and disabled persons stand?

Does this mean if an operator offers advanced reservations, they must also offer FTP persons a chance to reserve as well?

I have seen many FTP passengers left behind in Dublin on a certain operators routes.


If so I would like to take it up with the new TD who ever represents transport in the next Dail.

Thanks.

Brian Lighthouse

I've seen this many a time and unfortunately if the bus is full with pre-booked tickets what can you do?

There is no requirement to pre-pay the ticket if you are a FTP holder however it is advisable to book in advance.
All the booking engines have a facility to accept the FTP to book the seat at a cost.
Follow the normal booking procedure and there are options when you are through the pay wall.

ExoPolitic

Brian Lighthouse wrote: »

I've seen this many a time and unfortunately if the bus is full with pre-booked tickets what can you do?

There is no requirement to pre-pay the ticket if you are a FTP holder however it is advisable to book in advance.
All the booking engines have a facility to accept the FTP to book the seat at a cost.
Follow the normal booking procedure and there are options when you are through the pay wall.

But the legislation states; "Article 9
Right to transport
1. Carriers, travel agents and tour operators shall not refuse
to accept a reservation from, to issue or otherwise provide a
ticket to, or to take on board, a person on the grounds of
disability or of reduced mobility.
2. Reservations and tickets shall be offered to disabled
persons and persons with reduced mobility at no additional
cost."

So they are breaking EU legislation on this by charging?

the_pen_turner

Surely they are not denying service, they have no capacity left.

If I have 10 of something to sell and I sell them to the first 10 customers can the 11 person complain because I didn't sell them one. It's not that I didn't it's more I couldn't sell it to them

Brian Lighthouse

ExoPolitic wrote: »

But the legislation states; "Article 9
Right to transport
1. Carriers, travel agents and tour operators shall not refuse
to accept a reservation from, to issue or otherwise provide a
ticket to, or to take on board, a person on the grounds of
disability or of reduced mobility.

Yes, this is correct, they are not refusing on the grounds of disability etc.

ExoPolitic wrote: »

2. Reservations and tickets shall be offered to disabled
persons and persons with reduced mobility at no additional
cost."

So they are breaking EU legislation on this by charging?

I suggest for this point to give them a call before you intend traveling. Tell them your story. Talk to one of the drivers on a quiet day. See what the lay of the land is.



I am not going to get involved in a legal debate, I don't have the auld knowledge, the wits or the inclination to begin splitting hairs.


I will say that I witnessed on a few occassions leaving Dublin Airport major outrage and frustration after people walked up to the bus only to find that it was full with pre-booked seats. What can a person do there? I felt sorry for the driver each time as he had to explain over and over again.


So, overall, have a chat with the driver or the firm and discover what the best procedure for a person with reduced mobility is.

Best of luck with it.

ExoPolitic

the_pen_turner wrote: »

Surely they are not denying service, they have no capacity left.

If I have 10 of something to sell and I sell them to the first 10 customers can the 11 person complain because I didn't sell them one. It's not that I didn't it's more I couldn't sell it to them

But say a FTP holder wishes to make a reservation of one of those seats early when they are available and told no or charged an additional fee to what the company already get paid from the government to carry the FTP holder (This is the adult fare minus 30%). Surely the they should not be declined to do so based upon them trying to use their disability free travel pass?

ohnonotgmail

ExoPolitic wrote: »

But say a FTP holder wishes to make a reservation of one of those seats early when they are available and told no or charged an additional fee to what the company already get paid from the government to carry the FTP holder (This is the Adult fare minus 30%). Surely the they should not be declined to do so based upon them trying to use their disability free travel pass?

is that happening? it is a very different to your OP.

ExoPolitic

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

is that happening? it is a very different to your OP.

I said; "Does this mean if an operator offers advanced reservations, they must also offer FTP persons a chance to reserve as well?" in my OP.

Another poster commented that you can pay for a reservation, which is certainly against legislation.

ohnonotgmail

ExoPolitic wrote: »

I said; "Does this mean if an operator offers advanced reservations, they must also offer FTP persons a chance to reserve as well?" in my OP.

Another poster commented that you can pay for a reservation, which is certainly against legislation.

i would be surprised if it was. Irish rail do it

ExoPolitic

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i would be surprised if it was. Irish rail do it

The above legislation that I linked to, is only for bus and coach operations. Rail can charge, this is correct.

28064212

A disabled passenger has the same rights here as any other FTP passenger. They can pay for a reserved seat, or they can take a chance that no seat will be available. They're not being treated differently on the basis of their disability

ohnonotgmail

ExoPolitic wrote: »

The above legislation that I linked to, is only for bus and coach operations. Rail can charge, this is correct.

if everybody is charged the same fee for making a reservation then no law has been broken. "at no additional cost." means at no additional cost to that charged to non-disabled people i.e. there is no extra charge just because a person is disabled.

ExoPolitic

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

if everybody is charged the same fee for making a reservation then no law has been broken. "at no additional cost." means at no additional cost to that charged to non-disabled people i.e. there is no extra charge just because a person is disabled.

Yes, but I'm not talking about rail, there is no additional cost to reserve a seat on a coach or a bus journey. I don't understand where you're coming from here?

sexmag

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

if everybody is charged the same fee for making a reservation then no law has been broken. "at no additional cost." means at no additional cost to that charged to non-disabled people i.e. there is no extra charge just because a person is disabled.

Thats what I was going to say, you can't double up on the free travel as it where if everyone else has to pay for prebooking, you are not being f charged anymore than anyone else,its an additional service they do not have to offer but they do at a cost which so not additional to FTP over anyone else

ohnonotgmail

ExoPolitic wrote: »

Yes, but I'm not talking about rail, there is no additional cost to reserve a seat on a coach or a bus journey. I don't understand where you're coming from here?

there is no issue with charging a fee if the same fee is charged to all. If reservations are possible it must be on the same basis to all. You have not demonstrated that this is the case and i would be surprised if it was. and, again, it is very different to what you described in your OP.

sexmag

ExoPolitic wrote: »

Yes, but I'm not talking about rail, there is no additional cost to reserve a seat on a coach or a bus journey. I don't understand where you're coming from here?

I am not aware of a pre booking for a coach or bus journey? They dont have assigned settings on buses?

the_syco

ExoPolitic wrote: »

I am curious as to the legality of scheduled coach operators who accept the free travel pass leaving behind disabled people when the coach has been filled with prepaid tickets.

A coach can only take so many seated people. Once this number has reached, there would probably be an issue with them taking on more people.

Looking at jjkavanagh.ie for an example. You sign in with your FTC here; https://smartcard.jjkavanagh.ie/FT.aspx

ExoPolitic wrote: »

2. Reservations and tickets shall be offered to disabled
persons and persons with reduced mobility at no additional
cost."

So they are breaking EU legislation on this by charging?

Charge what? A free travel card means free travel. JJKavanagh & BusEireann both accept it, and both allow you to book using the Free Travel Pass.

=-=

If you want a seat on a busy route, you must pre-book it. It seems that you demand that someone who has pre-booked their seat gets thrown off, because you didn't pre-book your seat?

the_syco

sexmag wrote: »

I am not aware of a pre booking for a coach or bus journey? They dont have assigned settings on buses?

You book a seat. Usually not an assigned seat. So you'll be booking one of 52 seats, for example, which are allocated on a first-come first-served basis. Fairly sure I was able to ore-book a seat on a JJKavanagh bus back in 2005.

28064212

ExoPolitic wrote: »

A person with a free travel pass can not pre pay their ticket as there is nothing to be paid etc.

Your logic mistake is here. A person with an FTP absolutely can prepay for a ticket, getting the same service as anybody else. What they can't do is get the benefit of the FTP while also guaranteeing a seat. That's not discrimination

sexmag

the_syco wrote: »

You book a seat. Usually not an assigned seat. So you'll be booking one of 52 seats, for example, which are allocated on a first-come first-served basis. Fairly sure I was able to ore-book a seat on a JJKavanagh bus back in 2005.

This would mean just buying or getting a ticket on the FTP? People pay or get the free pass on the site which gives them a valid ticket and then they can get on the bus.

If someone doesnt do this they run the risk of the bus service be full before they get there

the_syco

sexmag wrote: »

This would mean just buying or getting a ticket on the FTP? People pay or get the free pass on the site which gives them a valid ticket and then they can get on the bus.

If someone doesnt do this they run the risk of the bus service be full before they get there

Yup. They pre-book the ticket. They either get it for free with the Free Travel Card, or they pay for it. This gets them a ticket, and a seat on the bus. On busy routes, this ensures that they have a seat.

The OP seems to want bus companies to give a person with a Free Travel Card a seat on the bus, even after said bus is full.

ExoPolitic

the_syco wrote: »

Yup. They pre-book the ticket. They either get it for free with the Free Travel Card, or they pay for it. This gets them a ticket, and a seat on the bus. On busy routes, this ensures that they have a seat.

The OP seems to want bus companies to give a person with a Free Travel Card a seat on the bus, even after said bus is full.

No, I would like them to have the opportunity the same as non FTP users to reserve a seat before the date of travel if they would like.

Re-read my OP.

The only question in the whole thing is this;

"Does this mean if an operator offers advanced reservations, they must also offer FTP persons a chance to reserve as well?"

ExoPolitic

[QUOTE=the_syco;


Charge what? A free travel card means free travel. JJKavanagh & BusEireann both accept it, and both allow you to book using the Free Travel Pass.
[/QUOTE]


I didn't mention the carrier, but it's neither of them and it is a big name which refuse to accept any FTP reservations, unlike those two who do.

sexmag

ExoPolitic wrote: »

No, I would like them to have the opportunity the same as non FTP users to reserve a seat before the date of travel if they would like.

Re-read my OP.

The only question in the whole thing is this;

"Does this mean if an operator offers advanced reservations, they must also offer FTP persons a chance to reserve as well?"

But the_syco showed that JJ kavanagh offer probooked tickets for people on the FTP. If you are aware of a service provider that offers pre bookings but but doesn't have an FTP option then contact them about it, maybe they arent aware?

I mean why go in guns blazing with EU regulations if you havnt contacted them about it but the only coach providers I personally know are bus eireann and JJ Kavanagh and they would offer this service.

ExoPolitic

sexmag wrote: »

But the_syco showed that JJ kavanagh offer provoked tickets for people on the FTP. If you are aware of a service provider that offers pre bookings but doesnr have an FTP option then contact them about it?

I mean why go in guns blazing with EU regulations if you havnt contacted them about it but the only coach providers I know are bus eireann and JJ Kavanagh and they would offer this service.

I have contacted them and they flat out refused, I did do the ground work first, trust me there.

And as I say, I have seen FTP holders left behind multiple times because they refuse to do so as well.

I showed them the legislation after they declined, and they just stated company policy rather than look at it.

the_syco

ExoPolitic wrote: »

No, I would like them to have the opportunity the same as non FTP users to reserve a seat before the date of travel if they would like.

I have given examples of companies that do provide this.

ExoPolitic wrote: »

Re-read my OP.

The only question in the whole thing is this;

"Does this mean if an operator offers advanced reservations, they must also offer FTP persons a chance to reserve as well?"

Please provide the name of the operator. PM me it to me if you wish. Otherwise we'll continue to around in circles.

ExoPolitic

the_syco wrote: »

I have given examples of companies that do provide this.


Please provide the name of the operator. PM me it to me if you wish. Otherwise we'll continue to around in circles.

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Peregrinus

ExoPolitic wrote: »

I didn't mention the carrier, but it's neither of them and it is a big name which refuse to accept any FTP reservations, unlike those two who do.

I don't think the legislation requires them to accept FTP reservations. The rule is that they have to allow passengers with a disability the opportunity to reserve at no additional cost - i.e. additional to the cost they would charge a passenger without a disablity for a reservation.

In accepting the FTP for unreserved passengers with a disability (subject to availability) they are going beyond what the legislation requires, which is just that they should carry unreserved passengers with a disability on the same terms as they carry unreserved passengers without a disablity. But if they go beyond what the law requires for unreserved passengers, they are not compelled also to go beyond what the law requires for reserved passengers, so they can continue to charge all passengers the same amount for a reservation, whether or not they have a disability.

rock22

Unless you name the carrier it is almost impossible to respond.
I reserved two seat on Citylink two weeks ago. One was an ordinary ticket and one was for FTP ticket. There was a charge for both reservations but the cost of travel was €0 for FTP.
We had no reservation on return and the bus was almost full at the airport, but we did manage to get seats in the end and again the cost was €0 for the FTP ticket.
I also checked out other services and the same arrangements seemed to apply.

ELM327

Cost of travel is negated with the free travel pass, same as if you buy a non specific ticket.
You can then pay over and above for a reservation. Either group (private or FTP) has the option to do this.

Think about the question. Not only are you getting free travel, you want to boot someone out that's paid for their ticket and paid to reserve a seat?

ExoPolitic

ELM327 wrote:

Think about the question. Not only are you getting free travel, you want to boot someone out that's paid for their ticket and paid to reserve a seat?

It has nothing to do with booting anybody out of a seat, I'm speaking about legislation. So with the operator they sell the ticket for 10€ with a seat reservation, and 10€ for the walk up fare, non reserved. Thus the reservation costs zero, according to the legislation a FTP holder should also be able to reserve for "no additional cost" if reservations are available to the general public.

28064212

ExoPolitic wrote: »

It has nothing to do with booting anybody out of a seat, I'm speaking about legislation. So with the operator they sell the ticket for 10€ with a seat reservation, and 10€ for the walk up fare, non reserved. Thus the reservation costs zero, according to the legislation a FTP holder should also be able to reserve for "no additional cost" if reservations are available to the general public.

Where does the legislation you've referenced mention anything about an FTP holder? A disabled person has exactly the same rights and access as an able-bodied person

ExoPolitic

28064212 wrote:

Where does the legislation you've referenced mention anything about an FTP holder? A disabled person has exactly the same rights and access as an able-bodied person

And some operators are denying disabled people this.

28064212

ExoPolitic wrote: »

And some operators are denying disabled people this.

In the exact situation you've outlined, a disabled person has exactly the same rights as an able-bodied person

ExoPolitic

28064212 wrote:

In the exact situation you've outlined, a disabled person has exactly the same rights as an able-bodied person

28064212 wrote:

In the exact situation you've outlined, a disabled person has exactly the same rights as an able-bodied person

On the other hand, the operator I had in mind have just told me they will now implement a reservation system for FTP holders when I showed them the legislation.

GM228

Agree with Peregrinus that the Regulation simply says that a person with a disability can't be charged any more than an able bodied person, the issue of holding an FTP pass is neither here, nor there.

the_syco

ExoPolitic wrote: »

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