What have we come to

freshpopcorn

I don't think there is party loyalty there anymore compared to the past. If we have a Sinn Fein lead government and they don't deliver on their promises I doubt they'd be voted in again after an Election or two.
The past referendums also have engaged more people in politics.

drunkmonkey

Cupatae wrote: »

My heart bleeds for people earning 105k per year and crying about of bit of extra tax, how would you survive on 90 k a year ohhh the humanity! hang on there till i change my vote.

Those people earning 105k are paying another 105k in tax. You want to tax them even more to give out more welfare payments to the do nothings. Best of luck with that strategy. I won't be hanging around.
Your basically trying to kill ambition via tax, welcome to a Socialist Shangri la, you'd be better off in Cuba at least they have decent healthcare and a free ice cream every afternoon.

Cupatae

Deleted User wrote: »

With that kind of logic, you must be a SF supporter... hilarious (in a frightening kind of way).

You re right we should keep voting the same way and hope for different results. You must be FF& FG completely out of touch with reality.

I see sheep

A great day for Ireland, my Mam voted not FF for the first time in her life in her 60s.
All over for FF dominance , they're never coming back that strong again thank god!

wexfordman2

El Tarangu wrote: »

There are plenty of other parties that espouse very similar leftish-populist policies to Sinn Féin, but who haven't been complicit in murdering Gardaí, members of the Defence Forces, members of the Oireachtas, children, census-takers, the Collie Club... I could go on.

Did you vote for the gfa ?

I did, and knowing that this would and had the aim of bringing sf and other parties with similar links to paramilitary organisations, in from the cold, in to government and in to the Democratic process fully .

I voted for the gfa, knowing that it would introduce power sharing in the north, knowing that it would bring the likes of SF into normal politics, and expecting the north to live with this.

Now, can someone explain to me

1) Why did we "impose" SF as a political party in the northern power sharing executive, and why is it good for them, but not something that we should tollerate?
2) Considering every party SF,Ff,FG has its origins in armed conflict, what do people view as an adequate time frame in which we should begin to oveook that fact and normalise them ?

banie01

Wesser wrote: »

The young people don't remember the troubles or any violence in the North. It's a new generation coming through.

We can't expect to foist coalition with SF on the Unionists in the 6 counties, without our being open to the same possibility in the 26.

It's a new political paradigm, the immediate response to what is a dramatic shift in the landscape will be whether or not the leadership of FFG can actually deal with the outcome.

Is it to be the coalescence of FF/FG into the actual single party of the centre right that many perceive them to be?

Or will one of them grasp the nettle?
Step into the brave new world and see how tempering leftist policy with fiscal reality plays out?

It is the most seismic electoral result I can recall, and if a Government can't be formed the only winners in the next election will be SF!

BanditLuke

threeball wrote: »

Have they turned over the paedophiles they were protecting yet?

FFG protected the church pedos for years.

Balf

DM1983 wrote: »

Generational wealth has to be redistributed in society. The typical FFG base won't like it but that's the answer to protect the country for the future.

Can't blame populism if you choose to ignore root cause.

I think you have correctly identified the core issue.


I'd just add that another part of the mix is realism over what regional development means. Which large parts of the country, containing a good number of voters, don't want to hear.

Fann Linn

omega man wrote: »

Some people just don’t want to work hard anymore to achieve a better standard of living. Some want the state to provide this for them. They rightly or wrongly believe SF will deliver this.

You'd really want to examine the demographics of those who voted SF. They're not all track suit wearing single parent drug takers who want foreva homes.
Despite that continual generalisation.

I love those bitter lemons.

Cupatae

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Those people earning 105k are paying another 105k in tax. You want to tax them even more to give out more welfare payments to the do nothings. Best of luck with that strategy. I won't be hanging around.
Your basically trying to kill ambition via tax, welcome to a Socialist Shangri la, you'd be better off in Cuba at least they have decent healthcare and a free ice cream every afternoon.

They are only paying that amount because it is benifical to them in some way shape or form, dont try sell it like they are here out of the goodness of there heart, anyone on the money willing to leave over money, is only about one thing... MONEY and you can be sure they are taking out a hell of alot more than they put in

macwal

Balf wrote: »

That's worth thinking about.


We might label it the Margaret Cash factor. You can give her a house and supports worth literally hundreds of thousands, but she'll still probably have the hump and, if she votes at all, will vote for SF.


Yet, she's a product of our society not producing an answer to what's admittedly a very difficult question. What could we colletively do, what policies could our State adopt, that would make Margaret Cash turn out more like, I dunno, Michelle Obama (just picking a reasonably competent human at random)?


Michelle seems to have gotten through life without ever feeling the need to turn up in a police station with a half-a-dozen kids in tow looking for a house. (And then getting one, in case we forget.)

I don't think it's the question that's difficult, but more so the answers.



The problem goes back several generations. People shouldn't be "rewarded" when they drop a few sprongs, they should be rewarded in their later life when they raise decent, contributing human beings. In most cases like the one you referenced, it's unlikely to be the case.

BanditLuke

I see sheep wrote: »

A great day for Ireland, my Mam voted not FF for the first time in her life in her 60s.
All over for FF dominance , they're never coming back that strong again thank god!

Massive mistake running Martin as leader in this election. Tainted by association and it's not the distant past. We are all still paying for his and his pals mistakes.

I see sheep

Still waters wrote: »

Because people are never happy, we live in a buoyant economy, near full employment, a high quality of living, a high life expectancy but parties like sinn fein appeal to the lowest common denominator, people only think we have it bad, while it's no utopia we rank as one of the happiest/successful/wealthiest countries in the world, just because cynthia and her childers can't get a house near her mammy and oisin has to work in spar because he went to college and did an arts degree doesn't mean everyone else has to suffer through a few years of lunatics like sinn fein in power

Short version: You've been lucky in life and are happy so that's all that matters.
If anybody is struggling it's their fault.

bunderoon

rtron wrote: »

Let's just get it over with.
Vote them in.
Watch them feck up the country.
Then revote FF in 4 or 7 years whatever it is.

You do realise that the country is still f**ked dont you?
As soon as we were forced to take on the debts of foreigners, money was then lent to us again. We are paying back 6,000 million a year ALONE in interest.
As we are not allowed to print out own money and control interest rates, we get hit when the EU central bank decides to stop printing...

My hope for SF is to sort out as much of the Corporate corruption and local government waste as possible.
One of many many examples one be to have seen O'Doherty oversee the costings of the NCH. I'd bet it wouldn't be the 1,500 million that its going to end up costing. The same types of hospitals in other similar countries costing no more than 200 million...
And you must remember, all of this money is borrowed AT interest...

I would fear though that SF wouldnt tackle the lifers on the dole and other social handouts. A huge section of society that also breeds social unrest and additional work for the councils and Gardai. Social welfare is supposed to be temporary until you get back on your feet, not the generational income that it's become.

We are fooling ourselves if we think that too much could change regardless of who is in power. But it would be great to make a start in undoing the great damage that FFG have done to us.

is_that_so

Ubbquittious wrote: »

They're the only decent size party that havn't screwed us massively before. Give them a chance

The manifesto is right out of the FF playbook of 1977! One can see how we might be quite easily screwed.

Balmed Out

Earthhorse wrote: »

It's a very naïve vote. Sinn Féin are basically FF lite. No real political convictions. What way is the wind blowing? Grand we'll go with that. If they do get into power it won't be the disaster some are expecting but it won't be the change others think they've voted for.

I think ff are less shamelessly populist as they had been under Bertie but sf have pretty much just copied his approach. Let's hope the media etc have learned something as the electorate hasn't.

BanditLuke

Fann Linn wrote: »

You'd really want to examine the demographics of those who voted SF. They're not all track suit wearing single parent drug takers who want foreva homes.
Despite that continual generalisation.

I love those bitter lemons.

Funny thing is those people in tracksuits and the druggies don't vote. The attempt SF as a party representative of them is pathetic.

noodler

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Now, can someone explain to me

2) Considering every party SF,Ff,FG has its origins in armed conflict, what do people view as an adequate time frame in which we should begin to oveook that fact and normalise them ?

It's an interesting, if utterly deranged, case of whataboutery right there.

The attempt to talk away SF's role in recent and even present criminality is quite disingenuous.

Cupatae

Cupatae wrote: »

You re right we should keep voting the same way and hope for different results. You must be FF& FG completely out of touch with reality.

Nope. I'm not a supporter of either party... But I don't expect SF to be any better than FF/FG. In many respects, especially for long-term effects, I expect them to be worse. Oh, sure, there will be short-term benefits, but they're probably going to kneecap the Irish economy.

threeball

Strumms wrote: »

They are quite right of center, they even have multiple members attending YAF conferences, there is nothing center about them...

They could have members attending Nazi rallies, doesn't make the party or the policies they implemented right wing. As was pointed out to you they are actually far to far to the left.

suicide_circus

As with Brexit, this is the democratic will of the people and it is for the "establishment" now to do some soul searching and figure out why this happened.

This is a cry for help by those who feel left behind and those who quite reasonably wanted an end to the duopoly of FFG.

It's not my personal preference but i hope they do the state some service because i want this country to do well.

RonanG86

I'm finding a certain duality here.

Apparently the country is doing brilliantly and we have full employment blah, blah, blah, but at the same time it's full of Social Welfare scabs who want everything for nothing and they all vote for Sinn Fein's pie in the sky promises? Aren't those two things at least a bit incompatible with each other?

Now, I'm aware that unemployment by definition only deals with people who are fit, able and willing to work and excludes those in third level education, but I'm pretty sure if you're on Jobseekers, the state considers you willing to work. I'm pretty sure from my line of work, that most 'generational' Social Welfare families that FG and FF supporters are getting butthurt about are actually on Jobseekers rather than 'faking' a disability or two. So there actually can't be that many of them if we have full employment? (Also my experience is that said class of individual is less likely to vote than the populace in general anyway)

And I don't think there are enough college students to make up the numbers for SF, even if every single one of them voted for SF (which they don't).

So maybe, just maybe, there's a sizeable contingent of hard working, employed people, who because of the ass backwardness of the housing market, the health system, childcare, insurance etc. etc. voted for Sinn Fein?

Nah, that can't be it. It's the scabs, isn't it?

I see sheep

Trying to explain Irish politics abroad is finally going to get easier.

It's always been - 'There's no proper left wing party and one of two centre right parties with exactly the same policies run the government every time.'

At least there's a serious left wing option finally!

Absolutely delighted

Elessar

I see sheep wrote: »

Short version: You've been lucky in life and are happy so that's all that matters.
If anybody is struggling it's their fault.

Translation: "The struggles in my life are always somebody else's fault"

The inability of certain Irish people to accept any kind of personal responsibility is astounding.

I see sheep

Deleted User wrote: »

Nope. I'm not a supporter of either party... But I don't expect SF to be any better than FF/FG. In many respects, especially for long-term effects, I expect them to be worse. Oh, sure, there will be short-term benefits, but they're probably going to kneecap the Irish economy.

Ha ha good lad, keep making IRA jokes, that went well for ye/media this time :P Up the shinners

Cupatae

Deleted User wrote: »

Nope. I'm not a supporter of either party... But I don't expect SF to be any better than FF/FG. In many respects, especially for long-term effects, I expect them to be worse. Oh, sure, there will be short-term benefits, but they're probably going to kneecap the Irish economy.

So whats the alternative ? vote in FF or FG again and keep the status quo going? pander to the high earners and corporations? and everything else is secondary ? I can see how 100k+ earners think theirs nothing wrong with the country it d be hard to see the misery from there ivory towers.

boetstark

Cupatae wrote: »

Best of luck to them then, we arent benifiting by having them here and we shouldnt be held hostage to keep em here by voting a certain way either, economies go up and down but always rise for the most part,

My heart bleeds for people earning 105k per year and crying about of bit of extra tax, how would you survive on 90 k a year ohhh the humanity! hang on there till i change my vote.

M90k per year, maths isn't your strong point

I see sheep

Elessar wrote: »

The inability of certain Irish people to accept any kind of personal responsibility is astounding.

I agree, The inability of FF/FG cowboys to accept any kind of personal responsibility in running the country like a **** show for 100 years is astounding.

Cupatae

boetstark wrote: »

M90k per year, maths isn't your strong point

It was a figure thrown out to make a point, clearly common sense isnt your strong point.

wexfordman2

omega man wrote: »

Some people just don’t want to work hard anymore to achieve a better standard of living. Some want the state to provide this for them. They rightly or wrongly believe SF will deliver this.

Some people are working exceptionally hard, and handing over 20k of their hard earned wages in rent, then another 10k in childcare.l, before they can think about actually livingz saving for the future, saving for retirement etc.

Your lazy generalisation is what has put SF where they are today denial of the obvious, a refusal to tackle the day to day issues that working people are struggling with every day if their lives.

I am heading towards my fifties, have worked all my life, have been a floating voter, am in a relatively comfortable position, earn a good wage, have a negligable mortgage, and am relatively secure.

I look at the position people ten years younger than me or more are in. People making a start in life, starting a family, starting a career, and looking to start a home. I look at these people and wonder in awe what keeps them going against all the odds, never mind the struggles they will face in trying to provide for their own retirement.

Your assumptions are lazy, ignorant and I'll informed.

I voted FG this time round, and SF second pre intacticly voted to keep ff out, and to try and put manners on fg. I have huge respect for much of what FG have done since the econimicly, and socially. I have huge respect for them finally tackinling SSM and abortion, and for the way they represented Ireland in the brexit negotiations.

I abhore their right wing economic stance, the creation of a child care industry, and an industry of landlords and shared living. I abhore their stance on retirement, and the increase in retirement age.

You keep up with your simplistic analysis of the voter, it will serve you well I am sure.