When will men get liberated from gender roles?

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m genuinely beginning to wonder do you come out with phrases like that in the hope that it will get a rise out of people.

Lots of men who claim to care about men’s issues and only want to whinge about feminism doesn’t mean men are left without representation. That’s like feminists pointing out that the vast majority of politicians are men, and so quotas must be introduced to increase female representation. It’s based upon the assumption that they represent women, when the reality is that they only represent a small minority of people who share their views.

Sure. And those who want to raise awareness of men's issues will do that. Those who want to whinge about feminism, will do that.

Mens issues will only be represented by one of those groups.

El_Duderino 09

Grass Fed Steak wrote: »

He looks for a reaction from people, he's carrying trauma with him from never feeling respected when in a group of lads. It has made him bitter. Hence he punctuates his discourse with "lol' and "whingeing" so frequently. He still feels attacked by the popular boys in school.

Ah, t'is my aul rereg. My biggest fan. Lol.

dark crystal

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

'Magine if he was wearing a skirt sitting like that!

:pac:

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

LOL. So father's rights isn't a problem. I'd say that men will take issue with that bit in reality, myself and KiKi are tho only ones to have expressed an interest father's rights in this thread. And you're saying its not a problem.

If there were megs rights advocates in this thread, they'd object. But instead of men's rights activists, this thread is full of bloke's who enjoy whingeing about feminism. Pity

And yet the only person who has taken issue with it so far has been you. That’s the second time btw in this thread you’ve name dropped other posters as if they support your opinions. I wouldn’t make that association as I don’t see their perspectives in any way similar to yours.

I have to question your claim that you are interested in fathers rights when you don’t appear to be aware that mothers and fathers are regarded equally in the family courts, and decisions are based upon the children’s welfare and what is in the best interests of the children, not their parents.

It stands to reason from a broader perspective that women would be regarded as the primary carer in most cases when in reality, women make up 98% of parents who choose to work in the home, men only make up 2%. Both fathers and mothers have the same legal obligation to provide for their children, so perhaps you could explain to me what rights you think mothers have that you think fathers should have?

ArchXStanton

dark crystal wrote: »

Many stereotypes tend to have their foundation in a fundamental truth, though, don't they?

By that I mean, in relation to the courts siding with mothers when it comes to custody cases, in my experience, it's women who generally do the lion's share of childcare, so it would follow that they would also get the lion's share of custody. Like, in my office alone, every person on part-time hours or who avail of worksharing are women. There isn't one man in the entire office who has opted do do this. There's nothing stopping them from doing so, they just tend to leave the bulk of the childcare burden to the woman. There are far more stay at home mothers than fathers in general.

Speaking of stereotypes, I was listening to a report on Newstalk radio the other day, wherein a reporter had interviewed a number of female candidates on the election campaign trail specifically about how they juggle their careers and their families. I found it remarkable that the focus was on female candidates only - the male candidates are never asked such questions.

Perhaps if there was true equality in matters such as childcare, you may begin to see the emphasis on mother's getting majority custody of the children start to level out more.

Most feminists would run a million miles from "true" equality..

El_Duderino 09

dark crystal wrote: »

True equality would be an equal number of men and women opting to be the stay at home parent or opting to work part-time/workshare.

True equality would be women not being the only gender asked about how they juggle career and family.

Something like that. What would true equality of childcare look like to you?

We'll, I'd say true equality in that sense would be all parents having the same rights to parental leave in the law. The social acceptance of men choosing parental leave would obviously lag being but that's just the way things change. People see bloke's take parental leave and chat about it and then it becomes normal.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Sure. And those who want to raise awareness of men's issues will do that. Those who want to whinge about feminism, will do that.

Mens issues will only be represented by one of those groups.

You’re still ignoring what I said - that feminism is an issue for some men, and they’re doing as you suggest - raising awareness of their issues with it as they see it.

You call that whingeing, but you’re not whinging of course. Well, according to you you’re not.

Silentcorner

KiKi III wrote: »

For a start, these guidelines were not developed by feminists. Secondly, I’d imagine moving away from the “boys don’t cry” style of parenting is in fact good for kids given that the male of the species are born with emotions and functioning tear ducts.

The ideology in the piece is blatant...I'll leave to more articulate women to discuss the potential harm in the guidelines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uotH7DZb0Q

These guidelines were published just before the now infamous Gillette "Toxic Masculinity" ad, and advert that suggested that men were inherently toxic...an advert produced by a Radical Feminist, that would go on to do €8 billion worth of damage to a global brand.

In case you forgot....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koPmuEyP3a0&t=13s

Radical feminism is a toxic presence in today's world where men and women have long enjoyed the same rights...now it is aimed at undermining men and or masculinity....men need to keep well away from this wave of feminism.

https://www.amhf.org.au/male_psychology_what_s_wrong_with_apa_s_masculinity_guidelines

dark crystal

dark crystal wrote: »

Many stereotypes tend to have their foundation in a fundamental truth, though, don't they?

A fundamental truth, and yet, you next talk about your experience. A fundamental truth would be something that couldn't be argued against because it would be true regardless of the argument. ie. Women can get pregnant. Men can't. A fundamental truth.

However, better parenting based solely on the gender of the parent is not a fundamental truth, but a stereotype promoted because of traditional gender stereotypes. Feminists are awfully selective about what gender stereotypes are wrong, and which ones shouldn't be argued against for fear of losing benefits received based on gender.

By that I mean, in relation to the courts siding with mothers when it comes to custody cases, in my experience, it's women who generally do the lion's share of childcare, so it would follow that they would also get the lion's share of custody.

In most of those cases, the male is the one working and providing the monetary support for the female to live like that. If the male had the option to raise children, and the woman support his lifestyle choice, then would that make him a better parent?

Like, in my office alone, every person on part-time hours or who avail of worksharing are women. There isn't one man in the entire office who has opted do do this. There's nothing stopping them from doing so, they just tend to leave the bulk of the childcare burden to the woman. There are far more stay at home mothers than fathers in general.

Social conditioning. For all the push to remove such conditioning, there is still the expectation for the male to work while the female does the parenting.

My parents were the opposite, with my mother being career driven, and my father choosing work which allowed him to finish early to look after us. He did the cooking, the cleaning of the house, went to teacher-parent meetings, etc.

Couples make certain choices, and while there are benefits within society and from the State for a woman to leave the workplace to look after children, there are extremely few similar benefits for males to do the same. That has an impact on people choosing who should stay at home and who should build the career to bring in the cash.

Speaking of stereotypes, I was listening to a report on Newstalk radio the other day, wherein a reporter had interviewed a number of female candidates on the election campaign trail specifically about how they juggle their careers and their families. I found it remarkable that the focus was on female candidates only - the male candidates are never asked such questions.

Because the push is for more female politicians? Like there was a tv show recently, showing Irish women who became successful in spite of the difficulties in society at the time. All the examples were from at least 70 years ago. By your logic, it would be interesting that I've never seen a similar show for Irish males who became successful in spite of their challenges..

There is a massive push to keep women, and the challenges they do, or supposedly face in society within the view of everyone. There's a constant need to reinforce the need for quotas, or the huge funding that female organisations receive compared to what's allocated to males.

Perhaps if there was true equality in matters such as childcare, you may begin to see the emphasis on mother's getting majority custody of the children start to level out more.

I doubt it. TBH that kind of logic has been borne out in other areas of society, as women have gained equality with males, but retained the biases that benefited them before equality. It has been well known for decades that females receive lesser sentencing in similar cases, but nothing has changed.

s7ryf3925pivug

Someone who says feminism is evil marginalises themselves and undermines whatever else they say.

Someone who argues in favour of feminism gives themselves credibility in arguing against discriminatory practices against men.

This point was already made, and the people who don't get it are too entrenched in their viewpoints to communicate with. ...But I've already typed this all out so I might as well click that Post Quick Reply button down there...

One eyed Jack

Valentino Old-fashioned Spacecraft wrote: »

Someone who says feminism is evil marginalises themselves and undermines whatever else they say.

Someone who argues in favour of feminism gives themselves credibility in discussing discriminatory practices against men.

This point was already made, and the people who don't get it are too entrenched in their viewpoints to communicate with. ...But I've already typed this all out so I might as well click that Post Quick Reply button down there...

Only amongst feminists who already agree with their point of view :pac:

Sarcozies

dark crystal wrote: »

True equality would be an equal number of men and women opting to be the stay at home parent or opting to work part-time/workshare.

True equality would be women not being the only gender asked about how they juggle career and family.

Something like that. What would true equality of childcare look like to you?

Is having 50/50 actually equality tho? That's equality of outcome, which I don't believe to be equality at all.

Wouldn't it be better to have equality of opportunity i.e whatever the man and woman decide? Who's wants to do it? Who's better at it??

Valentino Old-fashioned Spacecraft

Valentino Old-fashioned Spacecraft wrote: »

Someone who says feminism is evil marginalises themselves and undermines whatever else they say.
.

The problem is that the world and the internet has swung to extremes. You cannot be allowed to be a moderate anymore.

The first three waves of feminism, for the most part, had reasonable things to fight against, and that's why it received so much support from both genders.

Modern feminism though tends swing towards the more radical side of feminism which seems more intent in punishing the male gender for practices that happened before most of them were born.

I believe and want equality. Equality of opportunity for both genders. Equal benefits and protections for the genders. If a person chooses to be the primary parent, then the benefits should be available for either gender to avail of. And the other party, regardless of gender, should not be penalised in divorce or child custody because of those choices. TBH I'd love to see people being treated as adults and held responsible for the choices/decisions they make in life.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

And yet the only person who has taken issue with it so far has been you. That’s the second time btw in this thread you’ve name dropped other posters as if they support your opinions. I wouldn’t make that association as I don’t see their perspectives in any way similar to yours.

I have to question your claim that you are interested in fathers rights when you don’t appear to be aware that mothers and fathers are regarded equally in the family courts, and decisions are based upon the children’s welfare and what is in the best interests of the children, not their parents.

It stands to reason from a broader perspective that women would be regarded as the primary carer in most cases when in reality, women make up 98% of parents who choose to work in the home, men only make up 2%. Both fathers and mothers have the same legal obligation to provide for their children, so perhaps you could explain to me what rights you think mothers have that you think fathers should have?

Great if you feel there’s no issue with fathers rights. I also support addressing the causes of the suicide rate amongst men. And I support addressing men’s rates of homelessness, and domestic violence against men to name a few issues.

It’s genuinely fascinating that you’re taking issue with me for supporting addressing men’s issues. But that’s one of the reasons why the men’s movement struggles to get going.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don’t agree that it is a powerful movement in the first place as it hasn’t achieved anything noteworthy for women, simply because it doesn’t have the influence you appear to think it does.

Then why oh why oh why, is debunking feminism so much more important for some blokes than actually advocating for men’s issues?

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Suicide is a tricky one as we know from statistical data that while the male suicide rate has plateaued (not as a result of anything feminism has or hasn’t done btw), the female suicide rate has risen exponentially in the last number of years, yet feminists are more interested in banging on about how feminism is going to address the male suicide rate.

Would it be weird for you if I asked you to explain to me how that works? How has feminism addressed the female suicide rate? It looks to me like they took their eye off the ball in going after promoting their ideology among men.

I don’t expect feminism to address Male suicide rates. I would expect a men’s rights movement to address men’s suicide rates but such a movement doesn’t really exist, unfortunately.

I wouldn’t expect the ones who enjoy whinging about feminists to address it either. I don’t see how whinging about feminism could address men’s mental health. Now, promoting men’s mental health and lobbying for funding to study and arrests it with evidence based interventions. That’s something that could help address the issues.

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Then why oh why oh why, is debunking feminism so much more important for some blokes than actually advocating for men’s issues?

It is actually very important to, it is a toxic ideology.

Imagine if media, culture and politics were being infested by Catholicism, it was everywhere and nobody criticized it if you did you were ridiculed or quietened...this place would be lighting up with "whingers"....this is no different.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don’t agree that it is a powerful movement in the first place as it hasn’t achieved anything noteworthy for women, simply because it doesn’t have the influence you appear to think it does.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You’re still ignoring what I said - that feminism is an issue for some men, and they’re doing as you suggest - raising awareness of their issues with it as they see it.

You call that whingeing, but you’re not whinging of course. Well, according to you you’re not.

Here you say feminism is an issue, then you say feminism isn’t an influential movement. I can’t honestly say I know what you really think about it because you’re giving two contradictory accounts.

Basically, I gather that you’re interested in giving out about feminism whether it’s effective or not and you have no interest in advocating for men’s issues whether it would be effective or not.

Just for the sake of clarity: you’ve said YOU think feminism isn’t an effective movement and OTHER men think it is effective so the spend time opposing it. So what do you think is the more effective way to help with men’s issues? Talking about feminism or actually lobbying for solutions to men’s issues

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

It is actually very important to, it is a toxic ideology.

Imagine if media, culture and politics were being infested by Catholicism, it was everywhere and nobody criticized it if you did you were ridiculed or quietened...this place would be lighting up with "whingers"....this is no different.

Funny that you and the other poster above have opposing views on the influence of the feminism movement but you both would never think to discuss it between you.

The avoidance of discussing anything of substance that would help men’s issues, in favour of making up uses for whinging about Feminism, is genuinely fascinating.

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Funny that you and the other poster have opposing views on the influence of the feminism movement but you both would never think to discuss it between you.

The avoidance of discussing anything of substance that would help men’s issues, in favour of making up uses for whinging about Feminism, is genuinely fascinating.

I'd say you bang your head off walls a lot!!

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

I'd say you bang your head off walls a lot!!

Ah yeah but what about the thing I said in the post?

You and OEJ are arguing with me and both making contradictory arguments. But I hasn't occurred to you to voice your disagreement between you. That's interesting if nothing else.

But I suppose the Important thing it to all agree to get together and discuss the hypocrisy of feminism until men's issues are sorted. Bloody feminism just can't get its story straight. Amirite?

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah yeah but what about the thing I said in the post?

I think it is fair to say, you are one of the most thick skulled posters I have ever encountered on here....

El_Duderino 09

OK fine. Now can you address the thing I said in the post you quoted?

Just for clarity, I'm referring to this:

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Funny that you and the other poster above have opposing views on the influence of the feminism movement but you both would never think to discuss it between you.

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK fine. Now can you address the thing I said in the post you quoted?

Jesus....

It has been addressed, over and over again...and over again.

Many men, myself included, believe that this wave of feminism, is one of the biggest issues facing men in this day and age...it is in classrooms, colleges, work, media, politics and culture...it is a loud minority of headbangers who believe women at this point in time are somehow oppressed....I use the term headbangers deliberately because they are so indoctrinated they believe they are some kind of righteous equality movement (as most radicals do it should be said) when in actual fact they are more like Radical Feminists indulging in more man hating/shaming than is healthy for any society.

You can see the words I have typed...you know what the words mean...but you still don't get it...

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK fine. Now can you address the thing I said in the post you quoted?

Just for clarity, I'm referring to this:

And suddenly the thread dries up. Perhaps feminism isn't the only movement that is confused.

In any Whinging, bitching and moaning about feminism is completely beside the point of helping address men's issues.

Obviously anyone is free to whinge all they want about feminism. It's a completely harmless sport.

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And suddenly the thread dries up. Perhaps feminism isn't the only movement that is confused.

In any Whinging, bitching and moaning about feminism is completely beside the point of helping address men's issues.

Obviously anyone is free to whinge all they want about feminism. It's a completely harmless sport.

You are a f##k##g nutter...I should have known better!

Silentcorner

Silentcorner wrote: »

You are a f##k##g nutter...I should have known better!

Haha..I was going to tell you a few pages back..said I'd leave you off though..

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

Jesus....

It has been addressed, over and over again...and over again.

Many men, myself included, believe that this wave of feminism, is one of the biggest issues facing men in this day and age...it is in classrooms, colleges, work, media, politics and culture...it is a loud minority of headbangers who believe women at this point in time are somehow oppressed....I use the term headbangers deliberately because they are so indoctrinated they believe they are some kind of righteous equality movement (as most radicals do it should be said) when in actual fact they are more like Radical Feminists indulging in more man hating/shaming than is healthy for any society.

You can see the words I have typed...you know what the words mean...but you still don't get it...

Sure. And then the other poster One eye Jack, argues that feminism isn't an influential movement at all. I get it. You guys disagree, but you only want to discuss your disagreement through me.

It's genuinely amusing that I'm expected to argue with two people making contradictory arguments but it has never occurred to you that you two are in disagreement on one of the fundamental aspects of the whole discussion: whether giving out about feminism is the best way to achieve solutions to the issues that face men.

One of you says feminism is the biggest issue facing men. The other says feminism isn't even an influential movements. The only thing you both agree on is that you both don't see any point to advocating for solutions to the problems men face, apart from giving out about feminism.

It's genuinely interesting to see what's happening. I'm just interested in supporting men's issues and somehow I'm in the wrong. That's pretty incredible.

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

You are a f##k##g nutter...I should have known better!

I was referring to you and OEJ not responding and to be fair, I was wrong and you did respond even if you Completely avoided the fact that you and OEJ are in complete disagreement on the influence of feminism.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah yeah but what about the thing I said in the post?

You and OEJ are arguing with me and both making contradictory arguments. But I hasn't occurred to you to voice your disagreement between you. That's interesting if nothing else.

But I suppose the Important thing it to all agree to get together and discuss the hypocrisy of feminism until men's issues are sorted. Bloody feminism just can't get its story straight. Amirite?

Silentcorner if not I would be among the first to inform you that you are misinformed. We have often, and I mean often discussed issues men are faced with, from a number of different perspectives, in many many threads. And y’know what? We do it without behaving like condescending arseholes to each other, and we have far more robust discussion than the sort of shìt stirring you engage in trying to turn people against each other and lord it over everyone as though only you and those who agree with you care about addressing issues which affect men.

You still don’t seem to be able to grasp the concept that people can disagree in their approaches and have different approaches and the advantages and disadvantages or benefits of one or even a number of approaches over your one single-minded approach which for the most part only appears to be concerned with co-opting social issues to promote feminism.

I asked you what has feminism done to address the issue of the rising female suicide rate, and you didn’t answer. Feminism can’t get it’s story straight because it’s trying to be all things to all people, it’s whatever anyone who calls themselves a feminist decides it is. That’s why it’s not going to address anything, because it can’t address anything when feminists can’t even agree among themselves on what issues are a priority for them.

You tried earlier (unsuccessfully it has to be said), to virtue signal to your peers, for what I can only assume was the hope that they would support you. So far, that hasn’t happened. That’s why I’m not the least bit concerned about your views, as they are only credible in feminist echo chambers among feminists who already share your opinions.

Outside of that they’re of no value whatsoever, they’re regarded as whinging, the very same thing you accuse others of doing while at the same time attempting to portray yourself as caring about men’s issues.