Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

When will men get liberated from gender roles?

Options
1…468910

Comments

  • Options
    #152
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,011 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Valentino Old-fashioned Spacecraft wrote: »
    Feminism and mens rights are by definition the same thing.

    But Mens Rights badly needs rebranding.

    If rebranding would help then I'm fine with that. Ultimately we need men who care about mens issues, to focus on men's issues.

    Evidence on boards is that feminists the like of KiKi, Candie, Blue Wolf and most normal people, will support men campaigning FOR men's issues. And that's the difference between campaigning FOR men's issues and whinging about feminism.


  • Options
    #153
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Naggin Merchant wrote: »
    No doubt in your Department of Woke HR would be straight onto me.

    No can you explain why I would need to be a 'hard man' just to ask a question?

    The hard man bit refers to saying online all the stuff you would do when you’d actually do none of it. Shoulda woulda coulda.


  • Options
    #154
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Rathbool wrote: »
    It just so happens that that also benefits women, men can then do more chores around the house. It's funny that you don't hear feminists campaigning for equal judicial treatment.

    I haven’t seen anyone campaigning on equality in the family courts since the early to mid 00s. I don’t have kids so it’s not something that’s massively on my radar. Maybe it’s less of a problem these days due to equality legislation? Most couples I know who separate these days do shared custody.


  • Options
    #155
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,011 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Naggin Merchant wrote: »
    Like I said. A trade union for women.

    Yeah, a lobby group. That's how things happen. People lobby for things and,
    usually depending on the size and effectiveness of the lobby, things either change or they don't. Men need a lobby group to lobby for their issues.


  • Options
    #156
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Naggin Merchant wrote: »
    Except I don't need to be a hard man to ask Joe why he wore a dress to work. It's just a question.

    I guess my views are conflicting with your programming

    Sure, sure.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #157
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    If rebranding would help then I'm fine with that. Ultimately we need men who care about mens issues, to focus on men's issues.

    Evidence on boards is that feminists the like of KiKi, Candie, Blue Wolf and most normal people, will support men campaigning FOR men's issues. And that's the difference between campaigning FOR men's issues and whinging about feminism.


    You must surely be able to understand that feminist policies are an issue for men who disagree with them. I’m not surprised in the least that some people advocate feminism as a means to address men’s issues, because they’re not listening to men who don’t agree with their approach. They deign such disagreement as indicative of toxic masculinity, or as you put it - men whinging about feminism. I personally don’t care for the politics of feminism or anti-feminism or men’s/women’s rights either way tbh. I certainly wouldn’t refer to myself as “egalitarian” either.

    If I don’t agree with an approach I’ll express that disagreement, and if I feel someone isn’t listening when I’m trying to explain an issue, then that’s an indication they’re more interested in virtue signalling to their peers than they are in actually addressing issues which people are affected by.


  • Options
    #158
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,011 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Rathbool wrote: »
    It just so happens that that also benefits women, men can then do more chores around the house. It's funny that you don't hear feminists campaigning for equal judicial treatment.

    Yeah. Feminism is actively campaigning for issues that mostly impact women. Men don't have a similar movement to actively lobby for issues like father's rights.

    I think it would've great to support a men's movement to advocate for men's issues. Unfortunately lots of men only want to focus on feminism which is useless to father's rights, men's mental health and suicide rates etc. Pity.


  • Options
    #159
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Yeah, a lobby group. That's how things happen. People lobby for things and,
    usually depending on the size and effectiveness of the lobby, things either change or they don't. Men need a lobby group to lobby for their issues.

    feminists don't represent all women , they represent other feminists. If feminists got their way in everything they wanted lots of wives and mothers for example would have their interests damaged.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Options
    #160
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Yeah. Feminism is actively campaigning for issues that mostly impact women. Men don't have a similar movement to actively lobby for issues like father's rights.

    I think it would've great to support a men's movement to advocate for men's issues. Unfortunately lots of men only want to focus on feminism which is useless to father's rights, men's mental health and suicide rates etc. Pity.


    Fathers rights aren’t an issue that affects men though. That’s a common misunderstanding of family law in which parents have equal rights regardless of their sex. It was even that way before the marriage equality referendum, as was demonstrated in the case where the biological father was granted access to their child in spite of the objections of the child’s two mothers -


    Sperm donor wins access to son

    As I pointed out earlier - each case is decided on its individual merits with the welfare and the best interests of the child being of paramount consideration, not the rights of the parents.


  • Options
    #161
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,011 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    You must surely be able to understand that feminist policies are an issue for men who disagree with them. I’m not surprised in the least that some people advocate feminism as a means to address men’s issues, because they’re not listening to men who don’t agree with their approach. They deign such disagreement as indicative of toxic masculinity, or as you put it - men whinging about feminism. I personally don’t care for the politics of feminism or anti-feminism or men’s/women’s rights either way tbh. I certainly wouldn’t refer to myself as “egalitarian” either.

    If I don’t agree with an approach I’ll express that disagreement, and if I feel someone isn’t listening when I’m trying to explain an issue, then that’s an indication they’re more interested in virtue signalling to their peers than they are in actually addressing issues which people are affected by.

    Totally beside the point of addressing men's issues. That will happen if men campaign to promote men's issues and find solutions, or it won't happen. It definitely won't happen because loads of blokes whinge about feminism.

    Think about the idea of it. The obvious way to solve a problem in society (the rate of men dying by suicide for exam) is to promote it, raise public awareness of it as a problem and the impact it has, make it real for people and get the public on side so the public supports it and wants solutions and so the politicians are inclined to spend public money to address it. Simple and direct.

    This notion that focusing on feminism is going to actually address the Completely separate issues affecting men, is genuinely fascinating. The idea that such an oblique approach an issue will have much impact, is baffling.

    In reality, some people just like the sport of gender wars. Other people would like to help solve the issues. There's little overlap.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #162
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,011 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Fathers rights aren’t an issue that affects men though. That’s a common misunderstanding of family law in which parents have equal rights regardless of their sex. It was even that way before the marriage equality referendum, as was demonstrated in the case where the biological father was granted access to their child in spite of the objections of the child’s two mothers -


    Sperm donor wins access to son

    As I pointed out earlier - each case is decided on its individual merits with the welfare and the best interests of the child being of paramount consideration, not the rights of the parents.

    LOL. So father's rights isn't a problem. I'd say that men will take issue with that bit in reality, myself and KiKi are tho only ones to have expressed an interest father's rights in this thread. And you're saying its not a problem.

    If there were megs rights advocates in this thread, they'd object. But instead of men's rights activists, this thread is full of bloke's who enjoy whingeing about feminism. Pity


  • Options
    #163
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Totally beside the point of addressing men's issues. That will happen if men campaign to promote men's issues and find solutions, or it won't happen. It definitely won't happen because loads of blokes whinge about feminism.

    Think about the idea of it. The obvious way to solve a problem in society (the rate of men dying by suicide for exam) is to promote it, raise public awareness of it as a problem and the impact it has, make it real for people and get the public on side so the public supports it and wants solutions and so the politicians are inclined to spend public money to address it. Simple and direct.

    This notion that focusing on feminism is going to actually address the Completely separate issues affecting men, is genuinely fascinating. The idea that such an oblique approach an issue will have much impact, is baffling.

    In reality, some people just like the sport of gender wars. Other people would like to help solve the issues. There's little overlap.


    In reality, most people don’t care one way or the other about issues that don’t affect them. Then there are some people who identify issues as a means to promote their ideology - creating a problem to which their ideology is the solution. Then there are people who disagree with that approach. Then there are people who promote a different approach, then there are some people for whom someone else’s approach is itself an issue.

    That’s what’s behind the objection to feminist approaches to social issues. What you refer to as whinging about feminism is people expressing a difference of opinion whether it’s that they don’t agree that feminism is the best way to approach a social issue, or whether a feminist approach is causing more harm to men than it does men any favours.

    I don’t see feminism as doing either men or women any favours. I think feminism has fallen out of favour among women in the West because it no longer represents their interests, and it certainly doesn’t represent the majority of women. It got wrapped up in the gender wars and attacking men, whereas women in reality actually care deeply about the men in their lives, and so can’t relate to an ideology which has always been critical of men.


  • Options
    #164
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,011 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    silverharp wrote: »
    feminists don't represent all women , they represent other feminists. If feminists got their way in everything they wanted lots of wives and mothers for example would have their interests damaged.

    And lots of men who claim to care about men’s issues only want to whinge about feminism. So men are left completely with out representation.

    Wouldn’t the most obvious solution be to focus on men’s issues? But nope. The solution is always to focus on feminism and never on men’s issues. The only ones who give a fig about men’s issues on these threads, is the few feminist.


  • Options
    #165
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,189 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    And lots of men who claim to care about men’s issues only want to whinge about feminism. So men are left completely with out representation.

    Wouldn’t the most obvious solution be to focus on men’s issues? But nope. The solution is always to focus on feminism and never on men’s issues. The only ones who give a fig about men’s issues on these threads, is the few feminist.

    Ok...let's put it a different way.

    Misandry is a huge issue facing men these days, having influenced a number of area's in ordinary people's lives including work, media, culture and politics...am I allowed to whinge about misandry?


  • Options
    #166
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    And lots of men who claim to care about men’s issues only want to whinge about feminism. So men are left completely with out representation.

    Wouldn’t the most obvious solution be to focus on men’s issues? But nope. The solution is always to focus on feminism and never on men’s issues. The only ones who give a fig about men’s issues on these threads, is the few feminist.

    debunking feminism works too

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Options
    #167
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,011 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    In reality, most people don’t care one way or the other about issues that don’t affect them....

    ...whereas women in reality actually care deeply about the men in their lives, and so can’t relate to an ideology which has always been critical of men.

    You say most people don’t care about issues that don’t affect them. But they can care about lots of those issues - how else did feminism become such a powerfully and effective movement (whether or not you agree with the achievements of the movement, you have to know it has had a massive impact).

    Likewise, people can care about issues like men’s suicide rate but they have to know about it in order for them to care about it. And people find out about issues when those issues are promoted. This is so obvious it’s weird to have to say it to an adult.

    People would naturally care about men’s issues if those issues are promoted. Whinging about feminism is just sport for people who enjoy whinging about feminism. The rate of suicide amongst men is a real issue that most normal people would care about when it’s promoted. Whinging about feminism, isn’t.


  • Options
    #168
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    And lots of men who claim to care about men’s issues only want to whinge about feminism. So men are left completely with out representation.

    Wouldn’t the most obvious solution be to focus on men’s issues? But nope. The solution is always to focus on feminism and never on men’s issues. The only ones who give a fig about men’s issues on these threads, is the few feminist.


    I’m genuinely beginning to wonder do you come out with phrases like that in the hope that it will get a rise out of people.

    Lots of men who claim to care about men’s issues and only want to whinge about feminism doesn’t mean men are left without representation. That’s like feminists pointing out that the vast majority of politicians are men, and so quotas must be introduced to increase female representation. It’s based upon the assumption that they represent women, when the reality is that they only represent a small minority of people who share their views.


  • Options
    #169
    TiGeR KiNgS
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭TiGeR KiNgS


    When will men get liberated from gender roles?
    When women demand work on building sites hauling cement blocks around. i.e when pigs fly.


  • Options
    #170
    Snails pace
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭Snails pace


    mr_fegelien wrote: »
    Why does it disgust you more than a woman wearing masculine clothing?

    I was with friends the other evening, male and female and the conversation somehow came to the topic of men in women's clothes. None of them thought it was right, including myself. I wouldn't be upset over it, but I just dont think it's right. Whatever about dressing in drag but going around day to day in women's clothes wouldn't be for me.


  • Options
    #171
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,011 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    silverharp wrote: »
    debunking feminism works too

    It gets you excited, no doubt about that. But it does naff all for men’s issues.

    Promoting men’s issues would help with men’s issues. Whinging about feminism helps with whinging about feminism. It’s about bc as simple as that.

    So one fact is that you enjoy giving out about feminism, so that’s what you do. And that’s grand. It’s a harmless activity. The only problem is when you pretend to yourself that it’s doing anything for men’s issues.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #172
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Yeah.. notice the kind of sneering undercurrent to his posts too..


  • Options
    #173
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Grass Fed Steak wrote: »
    Feminism vilifies masculinity, it is in the interest of men's mental health to expose the nonsense of the modern feminist.

    This just isn’t true.


  • Options
    #174
    dark crystal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If males wish to stop the spread of misandry then, they should take every opportunity to call feminism out on its' double standards, hypocrisy, and BS. It'll be the only way to oppose the stereotypes that feminists are comfortable promoting about males, which are held up within the law especially in the family courts.

    Many stereotypes tend to have their foundation in a fundamental truth, though, don't they?

    By that I mean, in relation to the courts siding with mothers when it comes to custody cases, in my experience, it's women who generally do the lion's share of childcare, so it would follow that they would also get the lion's share of custody. Like, in my office alone, every person on part-time hours or who avail of worksharing are women. There isn't one man in the entire office who has opted do do this. There's nothing stopping them from doing so, they just tend to leave the bulk of the childcare burden to the woman. There are far more stay at home mothers than fathers in general.

    Speaking of stereotypes, I was listening to a report on Newstalk radio the other day, wherein a reporter had interviewed a number of female candidates on the election campaign trail specifically about how they juggle their careers and their families. I found it remarkable that the focus was on female candidates only - the male candidates are never asked such questions.

    Perhaps if there was true equality in matters such as childcare, you may begin to see the emphasis on mother's getting majority custody of the children start to level out more.


  • Options
    #175
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,011 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Grass Fed Steak wrote: »
    Feminism vilifies masculinity, it is in the interest of men's mental health to expose the nonsense of the modern feminist.

    Which would be more effective for men's mental health; exposing feminism as is happening now, or actually campaigning FOR men's mental health issues to be addressed, promoting resilience, helping those who need help?

    Honestly, which is more effective when it comes to men's mental health?


  • Options
    #176
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,189 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    KiKi III wrote: »
    This just isn’t true.

    It actually is true.

    This was a guideline published by the American Psychological Association (renowned for it's feminist influences), it explicitly states that traditional masculininty is harmful...it was published in the NY Times.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/10/science/apa-traditional-masculinity-harmful.html

    These people are deranged headbangers....imagine some guy, who has just gotten done in the family courts and cleaned out in a divorce went to one of these seeking help.


  • Options
    #177
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,011 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Grass Fed Steak wrote: »
    You do realise this is just a chat forum, you don't have to actually care about the underlying topic to enjoy discussing and debating a topic.

    It's perfectly reasonable to not particularly care about men's issues and at the same time enjoy pointing out the hypocrisy of modern feminism.

    Sure. I'm not asking you to do anything.


  • Options
    #178
    dark crystal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    Grass Fed Steak wrote: »
    What would true equality in the area of child care look like?

    True equality would be an equal number of men and women opting to be the stay at home parent or opting to work part-time/workshare.

    True equality would be women not being the only gender asked about how they juggle career and family.

    Something like that. What would true equality of childcare look like to you?


  • Options
    #179
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    You say most people don’t care about issues that don’t affect them. But they can care about lots of those issues - how else did feminism become such a powerfully and effective movement (whether or not you agree with the achievements of the movement, you have to know it has had a massive impact).


    I don’t agree that it is a powerful movement in the first place as it hasn’t achieved anything noteworthy for women, simply because it doesn’t have the influence you appear to think it does.

    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Likewise, people can care about issues like men’s suicide rate but they have to know about it in order for them to care about it. And people find out about issues when those issues are promoted. This is so obvious it’s weird to have to say it to an adult.


    It’s just as weird from my perspective to have to explain to another adult that people are aware of suicide, they already know about it. That’s so obvious it shouldn’t have to be explained to an adult, but here we are explaining to an adult that adults have their own issues which are a priority for them, which do not necessarily correlate with the importance you place on certain issues, let alone do they share your approach in how to address those issues. We both agree for example that men taking their own lives is an issue, but whereas my approach is more about prevention, yours appears to be adopting suicide as a cause to further your own ideology.

    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    People would naturally care about men’s issues if those issues are promoted. Whinging about feminism is just sport for people who enjoy whinging about feminism. The rate of suicide amongst men is a real issue that most normal people would care about when it’s promoted. Whinging about feminism, isn’t.


    They don’t though, you don’t care for example that feminism presents issues for men, you deign those men as ‘whinging’ about feminism, instead of listening to their concerns they have about an approach which they feel is being imposed upon them, which isn’t helpful to men. Suicide is a tricky one as we know from statistical data that while the male suicide rate has plateaued (not as a result of anything feminism has or hasn’t done btw), the female suicide rate has risen exponentially in the last number of years, yet feminists are more interested in banging on about how feminism is going to address the male suicide rate.

    Would it be weird for you if I asked you to explain to me how that works? How has feminism addressed the female suicide rate? It looks to me like they took their eye off the ball in going after promoting their ideology among men.


  • Options
    #180
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    It actually is true.

    This was a guideline published by the American Psychological Association (renowned for it's feminist influences), it explicitly states that traditional masculininty is harmful...it was published in the NY Times.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/10/science/apa-traditional-masculinity-harmful.html

    These people are deranged headbangers....imagine some guy, who has just gotten done in the family courts and cleaned out in a divorce went to one of these seeking help.

    For a start, these guidelines were not developed by feminists. Secondly, I’d imagine moving away from the “boys don’t cry” style of parenting is in fact good for kids given that the male of the species are born with emotions and functioning tear ducts.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #181
    Irish Guitarist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,736 ✭✭✭Irish Guitarist




Advertisement