God has put us here for a reason

antiskeptic

hinault wrote: »

Of course they're not all right.

Jesus Christ only created one church and that church is the Catholic Church.

A case of 'they would say that wouldn't they'!

The case for the claim is what matters if folk are to evaluate.

- Scripturally, the case is weak. "You are Peter and on this rock.." requires a heavy dose of importing other elements of the argument into the text. You cannot extract the Catholic church from the text

- Tradition. This presupposes that what arose from tradition is God ordained / God planned / God wanted. The scriptural case for tradition requires an argument for what is being said about what is to be a tradition.

It seems to me that the first base is scripture and from that all else must derive.

What (to me) appears to happen is a circular argument + argument from authority. Peter is assumed to be the first head of the church and that assumption helps sustain the tradition which then helps to support the assumption.

The argument from authority stems from the authority the Catholic church has and had. Might is right.

There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
However salvation for those within the Catholic Church is not guaranteed either.

I was under the impression that RC allowed for salvation of non Catholics, like folk who would never hear the gospel according to Catholicism. It would be by 'God's mysterious grace' (a.k.a. 'our theology doesn't cover this problem but we simply can't push 'Sola Catholicism' that far).

Is there a right of centre wing of Catholicism which does hold to Sola Catholicism??

hinault

This Scripture that you continually cite here, the Catholic Church first codified the Bible in the 4th century. Scripture bears witness to the only Church instituted by Jesus Christ being the Catholic Church.

In terms of Salvation, the Church has always held that Salvation is only through the one church founded by Jesus Christ. However membership of that church doesn't automatically confer salvation. Indeed.
No other church was founded by Jesus Christ.

The Church has considered the question of those who are outside the Church. This consideration specifically concerns those who through no fault of their own have never heard of Jesus Christ or about His ministry. Could these same people be saved? The Church view is that if these same people in those specific circumstances have led a life which conforms to Christian teaching that they may well be saved by God's mercy.

uck51js9zml2yt

hinault wrote: »

This Scripture that you continually cite here, the Catholic Church first codified the Bible in the 4th century. Scripture bears witness to the only Church instituted by Jesus Christ being the Catholic Church.

In terms of Salvation, the Church has always held that Salvation is only through the one church founded by Jesus Christ. However membership of that church doesn't automatically confer salvation. Indeed.
No other church was founded by Jesus Christ.

The Church has considered the question of those who are outside the Church. This consideration specifically concerns those who through no fault of their own have never heard of Jesus Christ or about His ministry. Could these same people be saved? The Church view is that if these same people in those specific circumstances have led a life which conforms to Christian teaching that they may well be saved by God's mercy.

I looked in scripture for the place it referred to the Roman Catholic Church but couldn't find it!!

mosii

Hi Lads,where did this virus come from.What about the poor innocents dying from it.Again i ask ,why would a loving God allow this.?

theological

mosii wrote: »

Hi Lads,where did this virus come from.What about the poor innocents dying from it.Again i ask ,why would a loving God allow this.?

Hi mosii, perhaps you can help me with one thing.

Why do you think that Christianity is based on the belief that everything is good and perfect in the world?

Perhaps I can get more into it after you answer this question.

mosii

theological wrote: »

Hi mosii, perhaps you can help me with one thing.

Why do you think that Christianity is based on the belief that everything is good and perfect in the world?

Perhaps I can get more into it after you answer this question.

Hi,I dont think i mentioned Christianity,i said a Loving God.I question all religons,who are following a God,i only ask as i STILL havent had an answer that goes anyway to stop me asking this question.
Go on give it a go ,and keep it simple.

theological

mosii wrote: »

Hi,I dont think i mentioned Christianity,i said a Loving God.I question all religons,who are following a God,i only ask as i STILL havent had an answer that goes anyway to stop me asking this question.
Go on give it a go ,and keep it simple.

This post is on the Christianity forum. An answer to the question I asked you will help me work through my answer.

mosii

i didnt think i would get an answer,goodbye.

theological

OK - for everyone else. The answer is that Christianity doesn't say that the world that we inhabit is a perfect world. Objections like this one are based on the idea that if there is a God why isn't everything rosy and perfect? The assumption that underlies the question is that if there is a God everything must be perfect and wonderful. But Christianity doesn't hold to this assumption.

Christianity is predicated on the Fall. The Fall was the result of man's rebellion against God, and as a result of our sin and our rebellion against God sickness and death entered the world. Two passages where we can see this quite clearly are in Genesis 3 and Romans 5. I'll link to these chapters in full so that you can read them in your own time.

Genesis 3 tells us that the Fall brought death into the world. God told Adam and Eve should they eat of the tree they should surely die. Adam and Eve disobeyed God and as a result throughout the generations death has entered the world.

Paul in Romans 5 explains this as follows:

Romans 5:12-14 wrote:

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

I'm quite happy that Christianity is a realistic worldview. It sets realistic expectations of the world that we live in. It doesn't tell us that everything will be rosy all of the time. If it did I would have chucked it in a long time ago.

What Christianity does do is give us hope in an uncertain world. Jesus Christ came into the world to die in our place and save us from our sins if we accept it. Jesus' death overcomes sin the world and the devil. Jesus' resurrection overcomes death and gives us eternal life. As Jesus died we died with Him, our sinful existence died with Him, and as Jesus was resurrected we were raised with Him and He is working in us until He returns (Philippians 1:9).

Christianity gives us the hope of a new start and a new life and a new world without the curse of the Fall because Jesus has stood in our place to deal with the root problem. Our sin.

Romans 6:5-11 wrote:

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

The Bible is the living word of God. That's why we see that questions like this are cogently anticipated and answered in it.

THE_SHEEP

mosii wrote: »

Hi Lads,where did this virus come from.What about the poor innocents dying from it.Again i ask ,why would a loving God allow this.?

It's the price we pay for our " freedom " .

Our true freedom .

Free to live our lives . Good or bad .

Free to follow the teachings of Jesus , or not .

Free to be the kind of person you want to be !!

Free to live , free to die !!

God cannot intervene , as that would not be freedom !!

mosii

Christianity is predicated on the Fall. The Fall was the result of man's rebellion against God, and as a result of our sin and our rebellion against God sickness and death entered the world.


So we are been punished?:cool:

mosii

mosii wrote: »

Christianity is predicated on the Fall. The Fall was the result of man's rebellion against God, and as a result of our sin and our rebellion against God sickness and death entered the world.


So we are been punished?:cool:

So we are been punished?

smacl

mosii wrote: »

So we are been punished?

Mod warning: Please note that this is not a forum where it is acceptable to be either intentionally inflammatory towards Christians, nor to soapbox your opinion. Discussions that blame Covid-19 on religion for the sake of point scoring against religion are insensitive to the point that I consider them trolling and will be dealt with accordingly. I'd recommend reading and understanding the charter before posting again. Thanks for your attention.

tuxy

THE_SHEEP wrote: »

It's the price we pay for our " freedom " .

Our true freedom .

Free to live our lives . Good or bad .

Free to follow the teachings of Jesus , or not .

Free to be the kind of person you want to be !!

Free to live , free to die !!

God cannot intervene , as that would not be freedom !!

But if you read the bible you will see that he did intervene frequently in the past.
At what point exactly did he stop?

theological

tuxy wrote: »

But if you read the bible you will see that he did intervene frequently in the past.
At what point exactly did he stop?

God has intervened and continues to intervene in the way that matters. He sent His Son to deal with the root cause of death. That is our sin. He asks us to repent and turn from our sin and trust in Jesus. Humanity continually ignores God and rejects this message.

One video I love on this that drives the point home.

How do I ask it properly?

Here's how you ask that question properly.

You look me in my eyes and you ask me this:
How on earth can a holy and righteous God know what I did and thought and said on yesterday and not kill me in my sleep last night?

You ask it that way and we can talk.

He helpfully turns the question on its head. Instead of asking why on earth doesn't God take away all our problems and all our difficulties in this life, it is asking how on earth could God forgive my sin and rebellion against Him every day and show me His grace.

It is a provocative and even an offensive point, but it is a true point. We demand things of God while ignoring Him every single day.

We even reject the ultimate solution that He has provided in Jesus. How entitled we are.

Macdarack

Why bother pray if God can't intervene, these days, has he lost power?
I imagine most of his most loyal followers are the over 75s in Italy who would have prayed all their lives who have died in their thousands,, whatever about all the over 75s who have prayed all their lives in Spain, France, Germany etc, tens of thousands of God's most solid followers who gasped to their deaths in the most awful ways.
Were they put on this world to die like that?

THE_SHEEP

Macdarack wrote: »

Why bother pray if God can't intervene, these days, has he lost power?
I imagine most of his most loyal followers are the over 75s in Italy who would have prayed all their lives who have died in their thousands,, whatever about all the over 75s who have prayed all their lives in Spain, France, Germany etc, tens of thousands of God's most solid followers who gasped to their deaths in the most awful ways.
Were they put on this world to die like that?

For me, " intervene " is the wrong word . I think God tries to guide us / steer us in the right direction . Through prayer / praying / spending some time thinking of God / Jesus , you are acknowledging to God your belief in his existence and your openness to him .

As for death . Well , after losing loved ones , friends , neighbours etc , l have ( after a lot of thinking and soul searching ) , come to the conclusion that you cannot live without excepting death . It's like you form a " contract " when you are born , that in order to live , you will die .

How and when it happens ( death ), is not an option in the contract . You just got to except the clause !!

hinault

Macdarack wrote: »

Why bother pray if God can't intervene, these days, has he lost power?
I imagine most of his most loyal followers are the over 75s in Italy who would have prayed all their lives who have died in their thousands,, whatever about all the over 75s who have prayed all their lives in Spain, France, Germany etc, tens of thousands of God's most solid followers who gasped to their deaths in the most awful ways.
Were they put on this world to die like that?

Physical death is a reality in this existence. Death is a fact of life, in this existence.

Macdarack

Lads, by telling me I'm going to die isn't an explanation, that's a fact of nature, I know good living people who pray and pray and have died roaring,others who prayed and watched their children get raped, murdered, others who prayed, devoted Catholics, devoted to God and jesus and the holy spirit and have lost themselves to suicide and their children to suicide.
We keep hearing that God is all powerful! All healing.
On that note, Loudes and knock etc take a lot of credit for healing thousands of people, God takes credit when it suits though.

theological

Macdarack wrote: »

Lads, by telling me I'm going to die isn't an explanation, that's a fact of nature, I know good living people who pray and pray and have died roaring, others gasping for breath,others who prayed and watched their children get raped, murdered, others who prayed, devoted Catholics, devoted to God and jesus and the holy spirit and have lost themselves to suicide and their children to suicide.
We keep hearing that God is all powerful! All healing.
On that note, Loudes and knock etc take a lot of credit for healing thousands of people, God takes credit when it suits though.

What explanation do you want that my answer didn't cover a few days ago?

Christianity doesn't say that people are never going to die, or that there will never be illnesses, or wars, or other forms of suffering, nor does it pretend that the world is perfect. In fact it gives a pretty strong reason as to why it isn't perfect.

Jesus actually tells us explicitly that these things will happen.

Mark 13:3-8 wrote:

And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are about to be accomplished?” And Jesus began to say to them, “See that no one leads you astray. Many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and they will lead many astray. And when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. This must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places; there will be famines. These are but the beginning of the birth pains.

What explanation do you offer instead?

Macdarack

theological wrote: »

What explanation do you want that my answer didn't cover a few days ago?

Christianity doesn't say that people are never going to die, or that there will never be illnesses, or wars, or other forms of suffering, nor does it pretend that the world is perfect. In fact it gives a pretty strong reason as to why it isn't perfect.

Jesus actually tells us explicitly that these things will happen.



What explanation do you offer instead?

So, so
These birth pains include millions to die and suffer unimaginably over millennia so some may live in glory at some stage, God has put those millions who suffed to suffer?

theological

Macdarack wrote: »

So, so
These birth pains include millions to die and suffer unimaginably over millennia so some may live in glory at some stage, God has put those millions who suffed to suffer?

It is one thing to sit and point at what you feel are flaws in the Christian worldview, but atheists rarely posit an alternative that is any better.

The Christian worldview posits that death and suffering entered the world through the Fall. You may disagree with that, but the disagreement is baseless if we're not willing to discuss what secular alternative does a better job of meaningfully explaining it.

Can you give me an indication of how your worldview offers a better explanation for this?

tuxy

It's worth noting that god fully understood the failings of humanity when he put the consequences of this in place.

The final book in the bible(Book of Revelation) is a warning of not what might happen but what will happen. This is the faith of humanity and how it is supposed to be.

nthclare

tuxy wrote: »

It's worth noting that god fully understood the failings of humanity when he put the consequences of this in place.

The final book in the bible(Book of Revelation) is a warning of not what might happen but what will happen. This is the faith of humanity and how it is supposed to be.

I read the book of revelations and I find it interesting.
Although I'm a pagan and no one can prosterlize me as I've made my bed and that's final.

Like a Muslim I believe that jesus was/is a prophet and a lot of biblical text has been manipulated.

Catholics are very pagan like and lost their way somewhere along history.

The church of Ireland are more faithful than the catholics who are sinners left right and center.
I think the rot comes straight from Rome.

Jesus was pariah in the eyes of his Jewish teachers and they didn't like him one bit.

He was tortured and crucified died and the word was made flesh and he dwelt amongst us.

Meaning if you live a good life and emulate jesus
as best you can there's a possibility you'll be saved if not you'll be shut out from the light of God and in my opinion there's a lot of realms in the afterlife.

I got warned here before for expressing my opinion, but I believe that the abrahamic god is a sand demon from the middle East and is no different from pazuzu the bringer of plagues etc and pazuzu rides on the wind...

Jesus never according to my reading of holy books never mentioned hell, or the abrahamic god.
He suggested that there's a loving forgiving god who's a great listener and if you decide that you want what jesus has, then you give your will and your life to that God jesus suggested you love.
Then you will be able to arrive at a place of light, love and eternal life in the ever after.

I go fishing with a really nice Christian man, and we could be driving from Ennis to Waterville for a few days fishing and we sit out light a campfire eat and drink tea and have friendly debates about lesous, yeshua and jehova.
And paganism and he's sincere in telling me unless I'm a Christian I won't see him at the other side of the pearly gates.

I tell him there's other places I'm going and it ain't pearly gates or molten hell fire.

That's my choice, I'm a heathen, into earth spirits, nature and our heritage of pagan rituals and magic.

Since I opted away from the Catholic Church and a brief stint for a year as a born again Christian, my life has enhanced.
I let go of the shackles that held me down since I was going to mass.

I often talk to Ibrahim Noonan in Galway and the born again Christian Phillip on shop street and we all get along and respect each other.

Ibrahim and Philip are sound guys, and sometimes atheism Ireland have a stall too and they're a nice bunch of lads.

They all get along.

Going back to the book of revelations Its quite interesting and I believe there's power in holy books and if used for the wrong reasons they can be a tool of destruction.

Yeshua/Pazuzu and Satan are from the middle East and very powerful but in my opinion they're not too different from each other.

They combined brought pain, suffering and depression to people in all corners of the world.
Their followers love crusades and division, conquering and mass genocidal acts of depravity.

Satan offers free will and the delights of the universe, knowledge, sensuality and joy in the lust for knowledge.
Let's everyone experiment with their wants and desires.

Satan doesn't suggest that we harm anyone or kill people, or cross personal boundaries.
He just says go out there and enjoy yourselves and live flamboyantly.
The horned God's are getting popular again.

After all the world is belonging to Lucifer the angel of light..

tuxy

nthclare wrote: »

Jesus never according to my reading of holy books never mentioned hell, or the abrahamic god.
He suggested that there's a loving forgiving god who's a great listener and if you decide that you want what jesus has, then you give your will and your life to that God jesus suggested you love.
Then you will be able to arrive at a place of light, love and eternal life in the ever after.

I think it's very clear that the god that Jesus talks about is nothing like the god of the old testament.
It always confused me how christians believes the god of the old and new testament was the same god.
God changing his mind and deciding he no longer wants to be vengeful and jealous and now wants to help humanity never made any sense and I don't see how these very different set of book are part of the same religion.

nthclare

tuxy wrote: »

I think it's very clear that the god that Jesus talks about is nothing like the god of the old testament.
It always confused me how christians believes the god of the old and new testament was the same god.
God changing his mind and deciding he no longer wants to be vengeful and jealous and now wants to help humanity never made any sense and I don't see how these very different set of book are part of the same religion.

The god of the old testament is a different machine than what Jesus thought about.
The irony is Jesus had a more new age look at religion and the Jews still don't accept that he was the messiah.

But yet people mix Judaism and Christianity with a similar god head.

They're totally different religious beliefs and if jesus spoke about Abraham it was more metaphorical than factual.
He was just telling parables rather than preaching.

It was the people of the Abrahamic god who's a psychopath, who nailed jesus to the cross, following the abrahamic god called EI.
Jesus was blasphemous according to the Jews and they had him crucified for not abiding by their religious laws.

Jesus was calling them out on their lack of compassion, draconian laws etc and they were not having it.

He was a rebellious activist, and bless him they tortured him, nailed him to a cross, mocked him and he eventually died and supposedly rose again.

Actually from typing this I think ill check out the king James bible again.
And try to figure out more about Jesus.

Because I find it all confusing, Judaism, Christianity and Islam being abrahamic.
But there's no sign of fire and brimstone etc in the new testament.

makeandcreate

nthclare wrote: »

The god of the old testament is a different machine than what Jesus thought about.
The irony is Jesus had a more new age look at religion and the Jews still don't accept that he was the messiah.

But yet people mix Judaism and Christianity with a similar god head.

They're totally different religious beliefs and if jesus spoke about Abraham it was more metaphorical than factual.
He was just telling parables rather than preaching.

It was the people of the Abrahamic god who's a psychopath, who nailed jesus to the cross, following the abrahamic god called EI.
Jesus was blasphemous according to the Jews and they had him crucified for not abiding by their religious laws.

Jesus was calling them out on their lack of compassion, draconian laws etc and they were not having it.

He was a rebellious activist, and bless him they tortured him, nailed him to a cross, mocked him and he eventually died and supposedly rose again.

Actually from typing this I think ill check out the king James bible again.
And try to figure out more about Jesus.

Because I find it all confusing, Judaism, Christianity and Islam being abrahamic.
But there's no sign of fire and brimstone etc in the new testament.

Look at the time frame the New Testament was written in comparison to the existence of Jesus. It is not contemporary by any stretch.

tuxy

makeandcreate wrote: »

Look at the time frame the New Testament was written in comparison to the existence of Jesus. It is not contemporary by any stretch.

Yes but the word of god remains constant. God does not transform into a completely different god just because some time has past.

Malachi 3:6

I the Lord do not change.

theological

tuxy wrote: »

I think it's very clear that the god that Jesus talks about is nothing like the god of the old testament.
It always confused me how christians believes the god of the old and new testament was the same god.
God changing his mind and deciding he no longer wants to be vengeful and jealous and now wants to help humanity never made any sense and I don't see how these very different set of book are part of the same religion.

Jesus does talk about hell in the New Testament. This search is of the exact word match hell in the Bible. Pretty much all of them are in the New Testament.

Jesus also uses other phrases to describe hell in the New Testament also. God is a God of love and a God of justice. He holds out His mercy in Jesus Christ that we might run to Him. If we don't however He acknowledges our decision and gives us over to an eternal life without Him and without His common grace in hell.

Of course the God of the Bible is the God of the whole Bible. The promises and prophecies of the Old Testament find their fulfilment in the New Testament. As you quite rightfully pointed out Malachi says that God never changes. The same in the New Testament, Hebrews says that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8).

tuxy

theological wrote: »

Jesus does talk about hell in the New Testament. This search is of the exact word match hell in the Bible. Pretty much all of them are in the New Testament.

Jesus also uses other phrases to describe hell in the New Testament also. God is a God of love and a God of justice. He holds out His mercy in Jesus Christ that we might run to Him. If we don't however He acknowledges our decision and gives us over to an eternal life without Him and without His common grace in hell.

Of course the God of the Bible is the God of the whole Bible. The promises and prophecies of the Old Testament find their fulfilment in the New Testament. As you quite rightfully pointed out Malachi says that God never changes. The same in the New Testament, Hebrews says that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8).

Do you think it may be possible that god is moving back into a phase where he creates plagues,floods and other disasters?