Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

fly_agaric

DubInMeath wrote: »

easy to talk about how great it's going to be now for the U.K. when you don't live there.

True. If living in this benighted country long enough you can even get a sneaky Irish passport at some point to sidestep any personal Brexit hassles.
Zero personal cost political cheerleading is wonderful.

Boredstiff666

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

You may also feed anti Brexit topics from people who live in the UK. So what is your point?

Pretty much what I said, not sure what part was cryptic to you.

By feed, I take it you mean Twitter or Facebook, not on them, prefer actually talking to mates who live over there.

RobMc59

DubInMeath wrote: »

Pretty much what I said, not sure what part was cryptic to you.

By feed, I take it you mean Twitter or Facebook, not on them, prefer actually talking to mates who live over there.

I live in Britain and I don't need anyone telling me brexit is a crock of sh*t-I know it already and so do millions of others

Boredstiff666

fly_agaric wrote: »

True. If living in this benighted country long enough you can even get a sneaky Irish passport at some point to sidestep any personal Brexit hassles.
Zero personal cost political cheerleading is wonderful.

More misinfo........You need to be an irish citizen which will cost you about a minimum of a grand........then you need to get your passport.

It's a great country.........pay taxes for years and get nowt not even dole if partner earns over limit even if not married...........then have to pay to become an Irish citizen. Refugee all is free.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_naturalisation.html#l62fd2

Boredstiff666

DubInMeath wrote: »

Pretty much what I said, not sure what part was cryptic to you.

By feed, I take it you mean Twitter or Facebook, not on them, prefer actually talking to mates who live over there.

Thread starters after starting thread sometimes are never seen again.

Some anti-brexiteers may be in UK. Not all in Ireland. So the sly digs at any English living here is just same as Anti-brexiteers living in UK.

Why do people start threads and never visit them again?

theological

DubInMeath wrote: »

We've repeatedly been told this by posters who say that they live here, easy to talk about how great it's going to be now for the U.K. when you don't live there.

RobMc59 wrote: »

I live in Britain and I don't need anyone telling me brexit is a crock of sh*t-I know it already and so do millions of others

For the record I'm Irish, and I live and work in Britain and I'm supportive of the UK leaving the European Union. I'm not convinced by the horror stories that people seem to believe. Britain is a major world economy, trade will continue with it even if the economy has to adjust and the sun will rise and set like any other day.

I think the hysteria is unwarranted.

Also - I voted for the Tories in December and so far that's turned out to be a good decision. Parliament is no longer paralysed and decisions are being made.

fly_agaric

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

More misinfo........You need to be an irish citizen which will cost you about a minimum of a grand........then you need to get your passport.

It's a great country.........pay taxes for years and get nowt not even dole if partner earns over limit even if not married...........then have to pay to become an Irish citizen. Refugee all is free.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_naturalisation.html#l62fd2

Yes, you have to be a citizen of a country before they'll let you have a passport. That does not contradict what I wrote (see the "if living in the country long enough" part).

I agree the fee is stiff...what do the UK charge for naturalisation as a matter of interest??

J Mysterio

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

More misinfo........You need to be an irish citizen which will cost you about a minimum of a grand........then you need to get your passport.

It's a great country.........pay taxes for years and get nowt not even dole if partner earns over limit even if not married...........then have to pay to become an Irish citizen. Refugee all is free.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_naturalisation.html#l62fd2

Shouldnt you be on your way to Brexit Britain to enjoy the new found freedom? Consider all the success you will be in a position to enjoy...

Boredstiff666

fly_agaric wrote: »

Yes, you have to be a citizen of a country before they'll let you have a passport. That does not contradict what I wrote (see the "if living in the country long enough" part).

I agree the fee is stiff...what do the UK charge for naturalisation as a matter of interest??

I havent a clue but for the two of us we reckon it would be in the region of 3000 when we have solicitors paid and passports in hand.

So after 25 years here its simply a no go. we dont know what will happen but thats just the way it goes. Being turned away from dole is the biggest bummer though.

Ireland is great for silly laws.

Boredstiff666

J Mysterio wrote: »

Shouldnt you be on your way to Brexit Britain to enjoy the new found freedom? Consider all the success you will be in a position to enjoy...

Does that mean you want to send all us Brits back to england?

J Mysterio

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Does that mean you want to send all us Brits back to england?

Do all the Brits live in England?

Boredstiff666

J Mysterio wrote: »

Do all the Brits live in England?

No but you havent answer the question so I will ask again..........Do you want to send all us British back to UK?

Irishmale0399

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

No but you havent answer the question so I will ask again..........Do you want to send all us British back to UK?

Lets put the question the other way.....if you find the current UK so wonderful and dislike the EU so much why are you not back in the UK???

J Mysterio

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

No but you havent answer the question so I will ask again..........Do you want to send all us British back to UK?

No. I wouldnt mind if you left the country though.

My question to you was why arent you going to Britain to enjoy all the success you seem to imagine will be there to be had under the new 'regime'? Don't forget that Ireland is a committed EU nation and you seem to really not like the EU.

Boredstiff666

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Lets put the question the other way.....if you find the current UK so wonderful and dislike the EU so much why are you not back in the UK???

No lets not put it the other way because he can answer himself being as he has been sniping the same stuff for a while.

But to answer you question..........its not easy to just drop everything and return but I actually think it would be pointless because I dont think the EU will be here in its present form very soon...........but not to distract from what JM is banging on about so let him answer.

Boredstiff666

J Mysterio wrote: »

No. I wouldnt mind if you left the country though.

My question to you was why arent you going to Britain to enjoy all the success you seem to imagine will be there to be had under the new 'regime'? Don't forget that Ireland is a committed EU nation and you seem to really not like the EU.

To correct you what I have always said is........Britain will not disappear down a hole as some claim here..........Britain will be ok but I can see things getting nasty from outside interferrance and the EU will not last in its present form.........so dont confuse my sayings with others.

So you want all British people out then?

J Mysterio

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

No lets not put it the other way because he can answer himself being as he has been sniping the same stuff for a while.

But to answer you question..........its not easy to just drop everything and return but I actually think it would be pointless because I dont think the EU will be here in its present form very soon...........but not to distract from what JM is banging on about so let him answer.

Haha, my point was exactly that of the poster you responded to.

Ireland are not going to be leaving the EU anytime soon. It has a 90%+ approval rating. You really must be a slow learner.

So, the point is if you hate the EU, and Britain will be so successful without, should be a no brainer for you? No brain may be part of the problem though.

So you want all British people out then?

Already clarified that's not the case.

Irishmale0399

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

No lets not put it the other way because he can answer himself being as he has been sniping the same stuff for a while.

But to answer you question..........its not easy to just drop everything and return but I actually think it would be pointless because I dont think the EU will be here in its present form very soon...........but not to distract from what JM is banging on about so let him answer.

Its not that hard....apply for jobs in the wonderful new UK economy (I assume they will be better paid and plentiful), sell you house in Ireland (before the EU kills our economy) and rent a van..ferry will take you all the way to paradise from a number of ports on this wonderful island. If you believe in something as much as you seem to do, its a small sacrifice to make to secure your future.

Boredstiff666

J Mysterio wrote: »

Haha, my point was exactly that of the poster you responded to.

Ireland are not going to be leaving the EU anytime soon. It has a 90+ approval rating. You really must be a slow learner.

So, the point is if you hate the EU, and Britain will be so successful without, should be a no brainer for you? No brain may be part of the problem though.

No you have completely misinterpreted what I said...........i never said Ireland would leave the EU............I never said I hated the EU...........and again your attacks on me are they because I am British? A slow learner and no brain being part of my problem.

fly_agaric

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

I havent a clue but for the two of us we reckon it would be in the region of 3000 when we have solicitors paid and passports in hand.

So after 25 years here its simply a no go. we dont know what will happen but thats just the way it goes. Being turned away from dole is the biggest bummer though.

Ireland is great for silly laws.

Fair enough, your political views getting put into practice in the UK could actually be harming you...(e.g. if you wish to travel to other parts of the EU fairly regularly + can't afford naturalisation).

After having a look the UK seems to charge similar amounts to Ireland (between £1,000-1,300 roughly?)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/visa-regulations-revised-table/home-office-immigration-and-nationality-fees-2018.

J Mysterio

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

No you have completely misinterpreted what I said...........i never said Ireland would leave the EU............I never said I hated the EU...........and again your attacks on me are they because I am British? A slow learner and no brain being part of my problem.

Look, seeing as you have acknowledged it, i'll leave you alone.

rogue-entity

blinding wrote: »

Scotland , well some Scottish people call themselves a country. Yet only a few years ago they rejected the chance to become an Independent Country.

And only a few years ago, they were told that if they left they'd lose their membership in the EU (vs staying in the EU via the status quo). A majority of Scotland voted to remain part of the EU and many feel they earned a new Independence Referendum which Westminster is strenuously denying them - how democratic of them.

fash wrote: »

They didn't though. The majority who voted in the brexit referendum voted to remain in the single market and customs union and since then every opinion pole indicates that 55- 60% want to remain in the EU - the desires of the majority are being ignored. Why do you hate democracy so much?

The desires of the majority being ignored is a consistent theme, only ~33% of the UK voted to leave (17.4m) and only 44% voted in the Conservatives in December -- the original referendum Bill should perhaps have included a minimum turnout or minimum threshold to head off the kind of counter-arguments over the validity of the result -- much harder to ignore a Vote to Leave if the result was from 52% of the voting population.

Similarly the electoral system allowed 44% to elect a majority to the Parliament leaving 66% under-represented which doesn't seem particularly democratic to me.

Sadly it won't matter as for some, at least, the only thing that matters is "we won" and "we got what we want" no one is allowed to express any dissension, criticism or disapproval; democracy apparently distils down to: "We won, now suck it, loser".

Even reading some of the posts in this thread, brexit-supporting posters come across as angry, aggressive, 'sore winners'; had the decision gone the other way and the UK voted to remain, I am not convinced those same folks would have abstained from dissension, criticism or disapproval.


With that all said, the decision was made and executed so now all that remains is to see what the UK Government achieves in the transition period and how things pan out once the transition period ends. While I'd have preferred (for my UK friends) that the decision didn't pan out as it had, equally for my UK friends I hope for the best.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

On the one hand I am happy that this snake (who blatantly tried and failed to circumvent the peoples democratic voice) should not get such a privilege but on the other, I would seriously enjoy referring to him as "Lord Cuck"

Your criticism reads, as someone who feels that laws, conventions and rules should be ignored - so long as - you get what you want (i.e. ends justify the means); that the Executive should have been able to 'Brexit by any means necessary' regardless of established rules and laws in place.

That type of attitude was also displayed when the UK Judiciary were asked whether the Executive could unilaterally trigger Article 50 or whether that was the sole competence of the Legislature (Parliament) -- they were branded 'Enemies of the People' for daring to uphold UK Law.

The unfortunate problem with that particular attitude (and I have observed this in the United States too), is that, the pendulum can swing both ways and when (not if) the pendulum swings away from the Conservatives and they fall into a minority, the same tactics can (and may well be) used against them and their supporters and those very checks and balances are designed to curtail the Executive so that the Government is always held to account.

blinding wrote: »

The Democracy of the People respected, finally.:D

Any guesses on how long before Parliament is renamed 'The Peoples Parliament' and the UK becomes 'The Democratic Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'?

fly_agaric wrote: »

True. If living in this benighted country long enough you can even get a sneaky Irish passport at some point to sidestep any personal Brexit hassles.
Zero personal cost political cheerleading is wonderful.

Or if you happen to have a few million in spare change, you can obtain a passport from Cyprus or Malta; but surely well-heeled members of the Tory party who voted for Brexit wouldn't be so traitorous as to do that, would they?

fly_agaric

fly_agaric wrote: »

Yes, you have to be a citizen of a country before they'll let you have a passport. That does not contradict what I wrote (see the "if living in the country long enough" part).

I agree the fee is stiff...what do the UK charge for naturalisation as a matter of interest??

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/visa-regulations-revised-table/home-office-immigration-and-nationality-fees-29-march-2019

Boredstiff666

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

More misinfo........You need to be an irish citizen which will cost you about a minimum of a grand........then you need to get your passport.

It's a great country.........pay taxes for years and get nowt not even dole if partner earns over limit even if not married...........then have to pay to become an Irish citizen. Refugee all is free.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_naturalisation.html#l62fd2

Re the dole etc, you've said a few times that you don't want to live in a socialist society so what's your problem with the current rules, which are pretty much like the ones in the U.K.?

Boredstiff666

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Thread starters after starting thread sometimes are never seen again.

Some anti-brexiteers may be in UK. Not all in Ireland. So the sly digs at any English living here is just same as Anti-brexiteers living in UK.

Why do people start threads and never visit them again?

What are you on about plenty of people start threads on here post for a while then move on.

Bit cynical

rogue-entity wrote: »

The desires of the majority being ignored is a consistent theme, only ~33% of the UK voted to leave (17.4m) and only 44% voted in the Conservatives in December -- the original referendum Bill should perhaps have included a minimum turnout or minimum threshold to head off the kind of counter-arguments over the validity of the result -- much harder to ignore a Vote to Leave if the result was from 52% of the voting population.

However when in 1975 the UK government, seeking a mandate for their decision to join, held a referendum on whether to continue membership of the then EEC. In this referendum, the yes side won with 68% of votes cast with turnout at 65% meaning that only 43% of the total electorate voted yes to remain.

Applying the same principle, should the UK not have left the EEC at that point given that just under 65% did not vote yes to remain?

theological

theological wrote: »

For the record I'm Irish, and I live and work in Britain and I'm supportive of the UK leaving the European Union. I'm not convinced by the horror stories that people seem to believe. Britain is a major world economy, trade will continue with it even if the economy has to adjust and the sun will rise and set like any other day.

I think the hysteria is unwarranted.

Also - I voted for the Tories in December and so far that's turned out to be a good decision. Parliament is no longer paralysed and decisions are being made.

I've friends living over here have decided not to return to the U.K. while I spent a week at the start of the month helping a mate move his family move over here after his second job loss in the last three years.

It may work out for some, the likes of who moved portfolios over here and other countries, but not for all.

theological

DubInMeath wrote: »

I've friends living over here have decided not to return to the U.K. while I spent a week at the start of the month helping a mate move his family move over here after his second job loss in the last three years.

It may work out for some, the likes of who moved portfolios over here and other countries, but not for all.

Not all job losses are Brexit related and more jobs are being created than are being lost. The UK also has high employment.

Losing a job is tough but when considering political topics like this we need to see the overall picture and not anecdotes.

rogue-entity

Bit cynical wrote: »

However when in 1975 the UK government, seeking a mandate for their decision to join, held a referendum on whether to continue membership of the then EEC. In this referendum, the yes side won with 68% of votes cast with turnout at 65% meaning that only 43% of the total electorate voted yes to remain.

I did say "minimum turnout or minimum threshold", but I take your point.

Bit cynical wrote: »

Applying the same principle, should the UK not have left the EEC at that point given that just under 65% did not vote yes to remain?

If a minimum turnout of 51% was set, then yes they should have left in 1975.
If a minimum threshold (of say 60%) was set, then staying was the right decision.

I raised this point, precisely, because there is a lot of loud noise about 'respecting democracy' and 'will of the people' which disingenuously ignores the fact that a majority of the people did not vote Leave, they either voted Remain, did not vote at all or were disenfranchised.

If the positions were reversed, it would be equally true to say that a majority of the people did not vote to Remain and I strongly believe that in this scenario those who voted Leave would not just let the issue drop, and I am equally confident that the referendum result would be challenged.


In any case, the bigger issue for me isn't the decision to Leave, it is the angry, bitter, divisive and even toxic atmosphere that has surrounded it like a permanent malaise - of which - I don't believe Johnson's platitudes about 'coming together' will be paid any amount of attention.

Bit cynical

rogue-entity wrote: »

I did say "minimum turnout or minimum threshold", but I take your point.


If a minimum turnout of 51% was set, then yes they should have left in 1975.
If a minimum threshold (of say 60%) was set, then staying was the right decision.

But this means that by setting the threshold at whatever level you can achieve any desired result. The UK government did not want Brexit to pass so they could have set the threshold at 70% to ensure this result.