No right wing alternative= No alternative

briany

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I believe no proper Conservative party can gain traction while the media is so overwhelmingly left wing

If there was an appetite for a 'proper Conservative party' there would be one. Simple as that. We've all pretty much got the Internet, now, and there are, if you want them, plenty of conservative/right-wing media outlets out there for our perusal. Not just from elsewhere, but also in Ireland. Traditional media can be bypassed.

Also, with the Irish mindset, it would be difficult for the emergent strain of right-wing thought to gain widespread momentum (though nothing's impossible, I guess). Our national identity is based on the underdog; that we were oppressed for our religion, our ethnicity, our identity. We were starved and were sometimes hated. The men chosen as our modern national heroes were figures advocating for a socialist republic in many cases. Contrast this to the USA or the UK where the right-wing mantra is 'we used to be great, but then we weren't great, so we must try to be great again'.

So, wannabe leaders of right-wing movements in Ireland would have to significantly change tac in how they present their message in order to make it presentable to the wider Irish public. Not that I'd be surprised if such potential leaders turned out to be sleazy, self-aggrandizing, and just using the right-wing tide to surf to power where'd they'd proceed to do sweet FA apart from lining their pockets, but still, that's what they'd have to do.

pjohnson

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Why has no vaguely conservative media outlet emerged in Ireland?

Is it a case of the place being too small.

I believe no proper Conservative party can gain traction while the media is so overwhelmingly left wing

Its never that the majority of voters just arent interested in voting for a Conservative party :pac:

Idbatterim

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/six-key-policy-areas-in-fine-gaels-election-manifesto-38892247.html

Fg dont want jsa or jsb raised. Great. Either do I , unless they reform it be based on what you paid in , determines what you get back out I.e actual pay related social insurance

Brussels Sprout

To answer the question of the thread I think one of the main reasons that we don't have a traditional socially and fiscally conservative party in this country is because we've never had a left-wing government which would fuel a right-wing reactionary backlash. That in turn gets us back to FF and FG. They are both centrist parties who borrow bits of left and right wing orthodoxy now and again when they see which way the wind is blowing. They have each other to bounce off and compete and against and up until now it has essentially locked out the smaller parties.

In a way it's similar to how when the UK had a referendum in 2011 to change the voting system away from First Past the Post both Labour and the Tories opposed it as they both knew that it was a mutual benefit. Well we have STV, but for most of our history it is as if we've lived in a FPP system with 2 parties. It's only in the past decade that Irish voters have really started to embrace the choice that our voting system offers. With each election the FF/FG combined vote shrinks and the Left-wing vote increases. It is inevitable that at some point there will be a left-wing government and at that time (if not before) I'd expect either a real right-wing party to emerge or the likes of FG will just shift more to the right.

ArmaniJeanss

sabat wrote: »

But a party could openly and honestly campaign in an election that if elected they would ban abortion, get a majority, and then follow through on their promise. There would be no legal route to stop them because the new amendment makes no reference to anything other than government power-no "will of the people", "rights" or any other abstract concepts or guarantees made by a particular group of politicians at a particular point in time.
If for example the amendment had read something like "the state recognises the right of all citizens to healthcare" (which it probably should have) then an appeal on that basis could be made.
It's an amateurish piece of legislation no matter what side of the debate you're on.

As someone who campaigned for Repeal, I'm happy with the current situation.
The abortion issue should never have been in the constitution, normal legislation was always the correct place for it.
If the public attitude changes and enough people vote for Renua/Aontu or similar parties who want to make the legislation stricter, then fair enough. I'd be sad but it would be democratic. And every few years there would be the chance to vote for parties who want to re-liberalise.

The long-term/generational effect of having it in the constitution was always the big issue for me.

ILoveYourVibes

Die Hard 2019 wrote: »

It's more nuanced this is a nice primer

www.politicalcompass.org

That's not nuanced. That is giving yourself a static label.

Public life in this day and age needs to be more dynamic.

There are social problems in this country that need ideas and weapons from all sides.

If your politics are not constantly evolving and progressing there is an issue.

Alt right and far right politics seems to want to 'go back'...reverse halt ...thus it has no future.

pjohnson

Idbatterim wrote: »

Voting this government , as appalling as it is. Keeps my vote to the least left possible ...

And that reduces your "brothers" tax obligations how?

Huntergonzo

As a matter of interest when people say they want right wing politics what exactly do they mean by that?

Ps, personally I favour right leaning economics. But when it comes social issues I don't identify with either side because I think the far right is highly conservative (we had decades of authoritarian rule under the iron fist of the catholic church and should never allow that to happen again)

As for the left I think they're currently obsessed with 'equality', but what the far left leaders really mean is they're obsessed with shuting down and marginalizing anybody who even questions their views. Basically the same type of people as the far-right, just with different views (see horseshoe theory).

To conclude, while the left are pretty irritating (and love an aul smear campaign with their uninformed hashtags movements, eg #NotMyCaptain), going the other way is not the answer. It just creates a constant yo-yo type of politics where people get fed up and swing over and back time and time again and little is achieved.

Mad_maxx

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

To answer the question of the thread I think one of the main reasons that we don't have a traditional socially and fiscally conservative party in this country is because we've never had a left-wing government which would fuel a right-wing reactionary backlash. That in turn gets us back to FF and FG. They are both centrist parties who borrow bits of left and right wing orthodoxy now and again when they see which way the wind is blowing. They have each other to bounce off and compete and against and up until now it has essentially locked out the smaller parties.

In a way it's similar to how when the UK had a referendum in 2011 to change the voting system away from First Past the Post both Labour and the Tories opposed it as they both knew that it was a mutual benefit. Well we have STV, but for most of our history it is as if we've lived in a FPP system with 2 parties. It's only in the past decade that Irish voters have really started to embrace the choice that our voting system offers. With each election the FF/FG combined vote shrinks and the Left-wing vote increases. It is inevitable that at some point there will be a left-wing government and at that time (if not before) I'd expect either a real right-wing party to emerge or the likes of FG will just shift more to the right.

I view FF and FG as centre left

Wanderer78

Mad_maxx wrote:

I view FF and FG as centre left

That's interesting, as theyre largely economically to the right, and it's well known they're traditionally more conservative

Eric Cartman

Wanderer78 wrote: »

That's interesting, as theyre largely economically to the right, and it's well known they're traditionally more conservative

But how , what right wing economic things have they done ?

Eric Cartman

alastair wrote: »

Nope - they’re not letting them enter the state - which is keeping them in / sending them back on the same plane. If they were in a position to get the next plane, they would be also able to claim asylum. That’s far from an asylum investigation. It also only applies to those travelling on fake documents.

We should start doing this for those claiming to be syrians

Idbatterim

pjohnson wrote: »

And that reduces your "brothers" tax obligations how?

It certainly doesn’t. But it’s lsughabke isn’t it. Many of us up to our tits in debt , get a pay rise , fifty percent of it gone. Spent on the likes of the luxury apartments in Dundrum , that he couldn’t afford and can you afford three thousand a month for some of them ? Doubt it. But here you are defending it ...

Idbatterim

Eric Cartman wrote: »

But how , what right wing economic things have they done ?

Outrageous welfare state ? Check ! Outrageous marginal rate ? that hits low income earners ? Check. Surprised workers here aren’t required to be stamped with a euro sign on our foreheads!

Tony EH

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I view FF and FG as centre left

Well, I'll put this bluntly. You're just wrong.

These parties, from time to time, may pinch ideas from a left leaning sphere when it suits them. But they are, as organisations, more wedded to a right wing perspective, both historically and in their contemporary forms.

Eric Cartman

Tony EH wrote: »

Well, I'll put this bluntly. You're just wrong.

These parties, from time to time, may pinch ideas from a left leaning sphere when it suits them. But they are, as organisations, more wedded to a right wing perspective, both historically and in their contemporary forms.

How though . What have FG done under leo that is in any way right wing . And i mean changes, not ‘they didnt undo this policy’

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Eric Cartman wrote: »

How though . What have FG done under leo that is in any way right wing . And i mean changes, not ‘they didnt undo this policy’

I think they've drifted slightly left recently in order to follow the will of the people, but there's no way they'd be economically left.

Have a lot at the welfare, tax rates and minimum wages of Scandinavian countries. That's centre left. Then cube Bush and tell me where you think FF and FG are.

facehugger99

Peter Casey's vote during the presidential election seemed to suggest there is appetite among the electorate for some form of alternative to the overwhelmingly left-leaning parties that we have to choose from now.

Let's face it Cassey was/is a bumbling fool with questionable views and he still managed to get nearly 25% of the vote.

What surprises me is that no one has formed a party to fill the void. They would have an almost clear-run if they came up with some sensible policies that supported the private-sector workers who pay for almost everything in this country.

Renua were the last party to have a crack at it but they were fcuking hopeless TBH. There is no way I could bring myself to vote for them.

Wanderer78

facehugger99 wrote: »

Peter Casey's vote during the presidential election seemed to suggest there is appetite among the electorate for some form of alternative to the overwhelmingly left-leaning parties that we have to choose from now.

Let's face it Cassey was/is a bumbling fool with questionable views and he still managed to get nearly 25% of the vote.

What surprises me is that no one has formed a party to fill the void. They would have an almost clear-run if they came up with some sensible policies that supported the private-sector workers who pay for almost everything in this country.

Renua were the last party to have a crack at it but they were fcuking hopeless TBH. There is no way I could bring myself to vote for them.

where?

would they really?

Eric Cartman

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I think they've drifted slightly left recently in order to follow the will of the people, but there's no way they'd be economically left.

Have a lot at the welfare, tax rates and minimum wages of Scandinavian countries. That's centre left. Then cube Bush and tell me where you think FF and FG are.

Thats drifting or an attitude, I asked for actual factual things that have been done, bills, laws, tax rates, what right wing things have they done.


North korea is far left
Scandanavia is moderate left
FG is centre left

A party that prioritised abortion legalisation, providing them for free and marraige equality over any kind of tax cut which they promised and were elected to do is not right wing

Tony EH

Eric Cartman wrote: »

How though . What have FG done under leo that is in any way right wing . And i mean changes, not ‘they didnt undo this policy’

Well, for instance they cut job seekers benefit from 12 months to just 9 and at the worst possible time too, when loads of people were getting laid off of work. Although that was Enda, not Leo.

However, traditionally they have always been a party of the right. Just because they may poach some ideas from "the left", it doesn't make them left wing.

They even identify as centre right parties, with FG being more to the right and they are commonly considered as such. Although, these days they revolve around a more right leaning neo-liberal conservative model, as do much of the western world's political entities.

Just because these parties are not right wing enough for you Eric, it doesn't make them left wing.

coolshannagh28

FG and FF are not ideological parties ; they gravitate towards where power emanates from, currently the left . They may have been socially conservative in the past but are happy to follow the left consensus which now prevails in Ireland

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

facehugger99 wrote: »

Peter Casey's vote during the presidential election seemed to suggest there is appetite among the electorate for some form of alternative to the overwhelmingly left-leaning parties that we have to choose from now.

Let's face it Cassey was/is a bumbling fool with questionable views and he still managed to get nearly 25% of the vote.

What surprises me is that no one has formed a party to fill the void. They would have an almost clear-run if they came up with some sensible policies that supported the private-sector workers who pay for almost everything in this country.

Renua were the last party to have a crack at it but they were fcuking hopeless TBH. There is no way I could bring myself to vote for them.

There isn't because the last time we tried moderare right-wing, they gave too much power to religion and nearly bancrupted the country. Voters remember that.

Casey got votes better the position he was running for had the failsafes of not allowing him to do that.

Eric Cartman

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

FG and FF are not ideological parties ; they gravitate towards where power emanates from, currently the left . They may have been socially conservative in the past but are happy to follow the left consensus which now prevails in Ireland

+1 Weather vane populists , both of them

biko

"Right versus left" is getting old
People are more nuanced than that.

Look at the core issues you have and try to find a good fit for those.
The party of your choice won't be a perfect fit but it will be a good fit.

These are the promises from the various parties in 2016
Do you agree with these promises?
Did the parties keep them?
https://www.irishtimes.com/election-2016/party-promises

Eric Cartman

Tony EH wrote: »

Well, for instance they cut job seekers benefit from 12 months to just 9 and at the worst possible time too, when loads of people were getting laid off of work. Although that was Enda, not Leo.

However, traditionally they have always been a party of the right. Just because they may poach some ideas from "the left", it doesn't make them left wing.

They even identify as centre right parties, with FG being more to the right and they are commonly considered as such. Although, these days they revolve around a more right leaning neo-liberal conservative model, as do much of the western world's political entities.

Just because these parties are not right wing enough for you Eric, it doesn't make them left wing.

So you can only name 1 thing and enda did it.

Your notions of fg’s space on the spectrum is far too rooted in history and attitude rather than factual political implementation in modern times

Tony EH

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

FG and FF are not ideological parties ; they gravitate towards where power emanates from, currently the left .

How can you even type with a straight face? How in the name of fuck are the left in power? In nearly every western country there are various flavours of the right in power. There are no truly left leaning political parties pulling the levers at the moment.

Even Macron, who is often called a leftie, isn't really one. He's more of a centrist Liberal.

Eric Cartman

Tony EH wrote: »

How can you even type with a straight face? How in the name of fuck are the left in power? In nearly every western country there are various flavours of the right in power. There are no truly left leaning political parties pulling the levers at the moment.

Even Macron, who is often called a leftie, isn't really one. He's more of a centrist Liberal.

Poland and the uk are being led by moderate right parties, the rest of europe is basically centerists and liberal leaning centerists.

facehugger99

Wanderer78 wrote: »

where?

Explained in post

Wanderer78 wrote: »

would they really?

Yes

Tony EH

Eric Cartman wrote: »

So you can only name 1 thing and enda did it.

Your notions of fg’s space on the spectrum is far too rooted in history and attitude rather than factual political implementation in modern times

I'm not going to through a list of FG policies for you Eric. Fine Gael (nor Fianna Fail) are not left wing parties and to call them such is ridiculous.

Their absolute failure to tackle the public housing problem in this country should be an obvious indicator of where their ideology lies.

Your problem is that they aren't right wing enough for you. Frankly, you may have to go back to the last century to find one of those.