Could you have been lured into gangland crime as teenager/child?

Definitely.

There were around 160 kids in my year in secondary school. At the last count, around 30 are dead from drugs/accidental deaths/ suicides. I turn 40 this year.

And I'm from an ok area.

My house was in a council estate and every 5th neighbour or so was into dealing.

One poor lad hung himself (he was part of a gang) but he hung himself because he was gay and thought suicide was easier than what might have happened had he come out to the gang. He was only 17.

I got into youth theatre and music and slowly edged away from my estate. Services for young people work, and it's why I'm a big believer they need investing in properly. You wont save them all, but some is better than none.

Raconteuse

Lyan wrote: »

It's evolutionary science, not feelings.

Don't know if anyone said anything about feelings.

Yes it is about personality and choice of course but there is hardly absolutely no influence from environment. The kid who has been in and out of foster homes because of drug addicted parents is obviously far more likely to be a violent criminal than the one who has a stable, happy, loving home. Yeah the reverse can happen, but which is the more likely?

Plumbthedepths

I will post this here , the young lad that was murdered during the week and dismembered was a kid, a child who had his head turned by scum dangling easy money in front of him. No child of that age sees mortality in their future. I know he wasn't a saint, I have two sons one is 28 a serving Garda and my other son 20 a college student .

Rubberchikken

No. But then I'm not stupid.

Graces7

This thread makes hard reading to someone of my generation ie born in World War 2.

We grew up protected and sheltered in most areas . I never knew until boards etc what issues young folk grow up with.

Lillyfae

My parents were strict to the point of abusive until I was a teenager, then I was alone from the age of 15. My older sisters would have been stalked by my father at that age but they had run out of steam because there were too many of us I’d say. Mortifying for them when I moved out and dropped out of school to support myself because they liked to be perceived as respectable. I always think it was a miracle that I never ended up on drugs, pregnant or worse but I was quite ambitious about having a normal and calm life so I need to take credit for it myself. I had far more freedom than my peers but used it to work and put a roof over my head in sh*tty houseshares so that I could get back to education ASAP. Left the country not long after I did the LC and worked myself through a BSc and MSc.

Having a child myself now, I would never return to Ireland. There are far too many issues in and around cities, and no accountability. Where I live now would have been considered working class (with actual jobs I mean) but in the 15 years since I moved here has changed considerably due to housing prices and a change in demographic all over the city. The difference I see is that there is a level of respectability whether working class or middle class that just doesn’t exist in Ireland. The majority of people want to raise their children to be happy, decent members of society. Of course there is crime but it’s confined to certain known areas and is mitigated by effective policing.

mcgucc22

Lillyfae wrote: »

My parents were strict to the point of abusive until I was a teenager, then I was alone from the age of 15. My older sisters would have been stalked by my father at that age but they had run out of steam because there were too many of us I’d say. Mortifying for them when I moved out and dropped out of school to support myself because they liked to be perceived as respectable. I always think it was a miracle that I never ended up on drugs, pregnant or worse but I was quite ambitious about having a normal and calm life so I need to take credit for it myself. I had far more freedom than my peers but used it to work and put a roof over my head in sh*tty houseshares so that I could get back to education ASAP. Left the country not long after I did the LC and worked myself through a BSc and MSc.

Having a child myself now, I would never return to Ireland. There are far too many issues in and around cities, and no accountability. Where I live now would have been considered working class (with actual jobs I mean) but in the 15 years since I moved here has changed considerably due to housing prices and a change in demographic all over the city. The difference I see is that there is a level of respectability whether working class or middle class that just doesn’t exist in Ireland. The majority of people want to raise their children to be happy, decent members of society. Of course there is crime but it’s confined to certain known areas and is mitigated by effective policing.[/quote

I think you’ll find the majority of people in Ireland want the best for their children as well. Ireland is one of the safest countries in the world.

Lillyfae

mcgucc22 wrote: »

I think you’ll find the majority of people in Ireland want the best for their children as well. Ireland is one of the safest countries in the world.

That may be true now but this is changing and will continue to do so as long as a certain demographic (growing by the day) have children as a lifestyle choice, without having the desire to raise them.

Wanderer78

Lillyfae wrote:

That may be true now but this is changing and will continue to do so as long as a certain demographic (growing by the day) have children as a lifestyle choice, without having the desire to raise them.

Criminality is highly complex, it's not just due to the failures of the individuals involved, but our failures as society as a whole.

TimeUp

I think I could have been, yeah. I still could be if I were not an adult lol

ILoveYourVibes

No.

I have a really good gut instinct for sensing out bad people and I don't like being around them.

I don't like bad energy and atmospheres.

I always gravitated towards nice people.

My parents would have put a stop to it anyway had it happened.

I didn't like the tough kids.

maninasia

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

Easily. I’m from Drogheda, minutes walk away from where young Keane lived. It’s always been a rough area. I turned to sport, and later, education to get out of it. I still go to Mountjoy a few times a year to visit friends who weren’t so lucky.

They made their own bed too. Nobody forced then to commit crimes.

Wanderer78

maninasia wrote:

They made their own bed too. Nobody forced then to commit crimes.

Again, criminality is highly complex, the needs of those involved were probably never met, as they were growing up

manonboard

Absolutely.
I grew up in drimnagh in Dublin. There were two boy. Andrew n Derek.
They were destined to be criminals giving their behaviour n who their friends were. Interacting with 25yr olds..35 or old.. of who were always with police.

I wanted to feel like somebody n tough at age 8 or 9. I started playing with them n trying to act tough. 3 weeks later my mum grounded me n forbid me from spending time with them. In hindsight she organised stuff for me to be busy so I didn't have time that summer to try see them.

By summers end, my urge had passed and they had other friends in different streets.

I have no doubts that moment stopped me from getting pulled into a bad teenage life start.

Andrew got hit by a car luckily n suffered terrible injuries. When he came out of his coma a year later he was too damaged to be tough. He got compo n turned out ok in the end. Friendly chap.

Derek was in n out of prison immediately after 18. Sure he is still in it.

Most of their friends are dead n in prison. Many in the gang war in that area.

The 25 year old..now 50 I say.. groomed those kids n the parents didnt stop it. What's 8 n 9 yr olds doing with a 25 yr old man. Ringing his bell..running somewhere a few minutes later.

My mum saved me by intervening. I respect her eternally for that guidance n we've talked frequently about it.

BeerWolf

"Want the latest iPhone? Carry this over to that place!"

Not exactly hard to persuade a child with something. More so on poorer families that can't afford, with a high desire for materialism that they couldn't get otherwise.

The law seriously needs to be harsh and come down hard on people that exploit children.

Montage of Feck

Designer track suits don't appeal to me, pure scuzy looking. Maybe if a more style conscious gang along.

BeerWolf

Montage of Feck wrote: »

Designer track suits don't appeal to me, pure scuzy looking. Maybe if a more style conscious gang along.

You can be those in the top hats in the top left corner...

Hellrazer

Deleted User wrote: »

Definitely.

There were around 160 kids in my year in secondary school. At the last count, around 30 are dead from drugs/accidental deaths/ suicides. I turn 40 this year.

And I'm from an ok area.

My house was in a council estate and every 5th neighbour or so was into dealing.

One poor lad hung himself (he was part of a gang) but he hung himself because he was gay and thought suicide was easier than what might have happened had he come out to the gang. He was only 17.

I got into youth theatre and music and slowly edged away from my estate. Services for young people work, and it's why I'm a big believer they need investing in properly. You wont save them all, but some is better than none.

Same story here--I grew up in Dublin 8 and by the time I did my leaving cert out of a class of 60 20 were dead from heroin.
This was in the late 80s early 90s. The dealers used to deal outside the school gates and they used the teenagers to sell the stuff for them. They got their own heroin free or got paid really well for selling to their class mates.

More than once I was asked to just bring packages from one place to another--never did it though. We lived right next door to one notorious family and my dad protected me from the worst of it by having words with the main man so to speak. Not in a confrontational way but just asked that I not be approached to do this stuff for them.

Truthfully I had more sense about me and got into music and didn't hang around the area. But you can see quite how easily it is for a teenager to get sucked into that life.

Absolutely. Grew up in some dodgy estates. Hung around with some of the biggest drug traffickers in the west sisters. Partied with same, in mansions that were abandoned in the middle of the night due to CAB coming! . Mother as good as she was wouldn't have noticed anything I done or didn't do. It was myself who choose a better path. One day. Not sure why just went a different way. Didn't like school but have a bachelors degree now and a masters in the pipeline. It's all about the person and how strong willed they are and what they want in life, I still could be there, I often shudder, with 3 or 4 kids and a husband that is in and out of prison.

Lyan

Raconteuse wrote: »

Don't know if anyone said anything about feelings.

Yes it is about personality and choice of course but there is hardly absolutely no influence from environment. The kid who has been in and out of foster homes because of drug addicted parents is obviously far more likely to be a violent criminal than the one who has a stable, happy, loving home. Yeah the reverse can happen, but which is the more likely?

Bull**** is a feelings argument to me.

I don't think the family life explanation ever stands up to scrutiny. You always seem to get into a neverending cycle of broken families. Why was Johnny bad? Johnny's Dad was bad. Why was Johnny's Dad bad? Well Johnny's Dad's Grandad was bad... as so on back to the Cambrian period. I actually don't deny that environment has zero influence, but honestly if we are talking about a kid in a criminal gang then the genetics are most definitely of the unsavoury variety. We aren't talking about some simple playground misbehaviour.

Doctor Nick

Lyan wrote: »

Bull**** is a feelings argument to me.

I don't think the family life explanation ever stands up to scrutiny. You always seem to get into a neverending cycle of broken families. Why was Johnny bad? Johnny's Dad was bad. Why was Johnny's Dad bad? Well Johnny's Dad's Grandad was bad... as so on back to the Cambrian period. I actually don't deny that environment has zero influence, but honestly if we are talking about a kid in a criminal gang then the genetics are most definitely of the unsavoury variety. We aren't talking about some simple playground misbehaviour.

When I said Bull**** it was nothing to do with feelings. More so that my own personal experience and observations with others most definitely was not due to genetics. I grew up in a loving family. Traditionally Irish at the time in that my father worked to provide and my mother stayed home to watch the kids. There was never any criminality in my family when I was younger.

As I stated, after being nearly drowned, stabbed and kicked to death by multiple people on too many occasions by a gang of scumbags getting with another group of people who the original scumbags feared meant I no longer had to worry about being battered. That sense of security and protection means a lot to a terrified child who thought they were going to die at the hands of these animals.

So yes, bull**** to your genetics argument.

Raconteuse

Saying environment has absolutely zero influence in any case whatsoever is highly dishonest. Nobody is saying choice and personality traits don't play a role either though.

the beer revolu

There's a very unsavoury tone to some posts here. A real sense of superiority and smugness.
Essentially saying that they didn't and wouldn't have gotten into crime because they are so fcuking brilliant.

iamwhoiam

the beer revolu wrote: »

There's a very unsavoury tone to some posts here. A real sense of superiority and smugness.
Essentially saying that they didn't and wouldn't have gotten into crime because they are so fcuking brilliant.

We reared three kids , we put time effort and energy into them . We drove them to clubs and sports and activities , we took them to parks and up thr mountains on a weekend . We sat with them and talked to them about everything . We went without so they had what they needed
We showed by example that to work hard is satisfying , we encouraged friends to come here and gave them space .
So call me smug or superior if you like but Yeh my kids wouldn’t dream of getting into crime because they are actually brilliant . And call me anything you like when I say “ yeh I did well “
Proper parenting is the absolute key to preventing a child being bad

Lyan

Doctor Nick wrote: »

When I said Bull**** it was nothing to do with feelings. More so that my own personal experience and observations with others most definitely was not due to genetics. I grew up in a loving family. Traditionally Irish at the time in that my father worked to provide and my mother stayed home to watch the kids. There was never any criminality in my family when I was younger.

As I stated, after being nearly drowned, stabbed and kicked to death by multiple people on too many occasions by a gang of scumbags getting with another group of people who the original scumbags feared meant I no longer had to worry about being battered. That sense of security and protection means a lot to a terrified child who thought they were going to die at the hands of these animals.

So yes, bull**** to your genetics argument.

Personal anecdotes are not an argument against evolutionary psychology.

the beer revolu

iamwhoiam wrote: »

We reared three kids , we put time effort and energy into them . We drove them to clubs and sports and activities , we took them to parks and up thr mountains on a weekend . We sat with them and talked to them about everything . We went without so they had what they needed
We showed by example that to work hard is satisfying , we encouraged friends to come here and gave them space .
So call me smug or superior if you like but Yeh my kids wouldn’t dream of getting into crime because they are actually brilliant . And call me anything you like when I say “ yeh I did well “
Proper parenting is the absolute key to preventing a child being bad

I obviously wasn't referring to you as you hadn't posted in the thread.

But now that you have.......
Thinking that your children are brilliant is charming.
Thinking that it is all down to you, is extremely smug and arrogant.

iamwhoiam

the beer revolu wrote: »

I obviously wasn't referring to you as you hadn't posted in the thread.

But now that you have.......
Thinking that your children are brilliant is charming.
Thinking that it is all down to you, is extremely smug and arrogant.

I didn’t think you were referring to me , but I had a point to make to you
At no stage did I say it was “ all down to me “ but I and my husband sure as hell contributed to their sense of decency and respect for others
And I am glad you think its charming because yes all three are brilliant !

Doctor Nick

Lyan wrote: »

Personal anecdotes are not an argument against evolutionary psychology.

Personal anecdotes are proof it is not as black and white as you say it is. There is lot more to it.

the beer revolu

iamwhoiam wrote: »

At no stage did I say it was “ all down to me “ !

You didn't need to.

iamwhoiam

the beer revolu wrote: »

You didn't need to.

You hear what you want to hear . So don’t tell me what I meant