Ukranian Airlines Flight PS752 Crash (See mod note/warning in post 270)

Nijmegen

CPTM wrote: »

Ok fair enough, maybe not flightradar24, but you know what I mean. To put it another way, if they aren't double checking for commercial flights using SOME kind of technology I'm surprised this kind of thing doesn't happen all the time.

Movies and TV shows give us this vision of military and intelligence services tapping away at consoles and getting perfect data. Not how it really is. The tor-m1 is a variant produced in the 1990s of a soviet system first designed in 1975. Look up pictures of the operators consoles and you’ll find green dots on CRTs. Another thing to bear in mind is that as a SAM operator, you’re very aware that if the country is under air attack you are second on the list after radar sites to be hit, well before actual strategic targets. So shooting something down is given urgency if you think it’s coming your conscripted way while you sit inside your vehicle staring at that green monitor all keyed up expecting the worlds largest Air Force to give you a go tonight.

Elmer Blooker

the_syco wrote: »

They hit the US, they expected retaliation. They probably thought the plane was a bomber.

If the Iranians were on high alert because they thought US bombers were in the Tehran area then why was the civilian airport open and flights allowed to take off in a potential war zone?

Letwin_Larry

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

If the Iranians were on high alert because they thought US bombers were in the Tehran area then why was the civilian airport open and flights allowed to take off in a potential war zone?

The Iranian regime shows a criminal disregard for the safety and well-being of its' own citizens and those of its' neighbours.
do you really think it will be that concerned about infidels and non-believers from North America & Europe?

Nijmegen

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

If the Iranians were on high alert because they thought US bombers were in the Tehran area then why was the civilian airport open and flights allowed to take off in a potential war zone?

They were probably on high alert because they anticipated a reaction, not because they specifically had one underway. As to your latter question, that’s a really pertinent one they should have thought of before they started firing missiles into Iraq, isn’t it. There might be a good reason why someone accidentally fired off a missile, but the leadership who put that person on high alert and then continued to let civilian traffic fly in the area were stupid or callous.

the_syco

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

If the Iranians were on high alert because they thought US bombers were in the Tehran area then why was the civilian airport open and flights allowed to take off in a potential war zone?

CPTM wrote: »

To put it another way, if they aren't double checking for commercial flights using SOME kind of technology I'm surprised this kind of thing doesn't happen all the time.

I'm thinking that the plane got blown out of the sky as it took off late. The guy operating the Tor probably checked the flight schedule, saw no flights scheduled, so shot down the plane. Keep in mind that Iran has shot down a few US drones over the past year, but mainly to the south.

irishgeo

The sudden ending of the retaliation says a lot.

scotchy

Listening to info being quoted on the news, the Americans pretty much knew straight away what happened.

bluelamp

Lufthansa LH600 from Frankfurt to Tehran turned around over Romania after the news broke. Now back in Frankfurt.

Tenger

skallywag wrote: »

How did the US Navy think that an Iranian airliner was an 'attacking enemy'?

At the time the airport was mixed civilian/military use.
So the airliner was mistaken for an F-14

skallywag

Tenger wrote: »

At the time the airport was mixed civilian/military use.
So the airliner was mistaken for an F-14

Correct. Though my response was meant as a response to the previous poster

Psychlops

RIP to all involved, I cant understand how you attack an aircraft that is climbing out from your own International Airport.



The "enemy" was hardly doing touch & go's :rolleyes:

fritzelly

I don't get this...
New contact coming from a known location (airport), ascending, transponder identifying it but still seen as a threat

All assuming the missile is proved to be correct

Do not the guys on the button have to get confirmation to fire? So someone else would have had to check his report?

Nijmegen

There’s reports, which come with a major twitter health warning, that the Iranians are bulldozing the wreckage https://twitter.com/gianfiorella/status/1215285384529182721?s=21

IE 222

Probably just removing it to the hanger.

Gatling

skallywag wrote: »

How did the US Navy think that an Iranian airliner was an 'attacking enemy'?

There was several issues that rarely got mentioned the captain of the ship veered off course to try get into a fight with some boats that were harassing another vessel,I know someone said they thought an Iranian F14 slid under the airliner but radar would have still seen the airliner clearly ,
I believe in the end they blamed this ships defence systems interface either it was confusing or didn't display enough information to make a snap decision whether they were under attack or not ,
But compare the shooting down of flight kal 007 over Russia which was engaged by a fighter jet , which was clearly identifiable to the pilot , the pilot said he fired warning shots from the gun which had no tracers shooting away from the aircraft in the dark so the kal pilots seen nothing before the russian fighter followed it for a few minutes at close range before locking on with a missile and shooting it down.

Were both mistakes or deliberate

IE 222

CNN reporting Iranians have invited Boeing to the investigation.

Nijmegen

IE 222 wrote: »

CNN reporting Iranians have invited Boeing to the investigation.

Black boxes wiped, wreckage bulldozed and still talking about how it’s “scientifically impossible” for it to be a missile, invite in the foreigners to pick over what’s left.

wcooba

fritzelly wrote: »

I don't get this...
New contact coming from a known location (airport), ascending, transponder identifying it but still seen as a threat

All assuming the missile is proved to be correct

Do not the guys on the button have to get confirmation to fire? So someone else would have had to check his report?

They were on high alert anticipating ballistic missile strike from US or their allies. Decision window for protecting their infrastructure / capital was probably something like ~30 seconds - if system wasn't set to automated response. I think the main question is why civil plane wasn't automatically recognised as friendly by IFF. Would the fact that plane was Ukrainian and system Russian had anything to do with that?

fritzelly

wcooba wrote: »

They were on high alert anticipating ballistic missile strike from US or their allies. Decision window for protecting their infrastructure / capital was probably something like ~30 seconds - if system wasn't set to automated response. I think the main question is why civil plane wasn't automatically recognised as friendly by IFF. Would the fact that plane was Ukrainian and system Russian had anything to do with that?

Fair enough but there was lots of traffic at the same altitude from the same location - something doesn't add up (not going the conspiracy route)

wcooba

fritzelly wrote: »

Fair enough but there was lots of traffic at the same altitude from the same location - something doesn't add up (not going the conspiracy route)

See my last sentence - maybe other traffic was correctly recognised as friendly. The fact this flight was delayed and probably updated list wasn't passed to the military didn't help either...

fritzelly

Lots of new videos coming out now - making it definitely look like a missile strike (uncorroborated)

Nijmegen

The fault needs to turn and lay with the leadership of Iran who kept commercial flights going whilst going to their highest hair trigger state of readiness, and then lying about it.

Unfortunately for the victims it feels like the international community just wants to de-escalate with Iran now and so aren’t willing to push this. Let them look like idiots and leave it at that.

fritzelly

Nijmegen wrote: »

Unfortunately for the victims it feels like the international community just wants to de-escalate with Iran now and so aren’t willing to push this. Let them look like idiots and leave it at that.

Didn't the same happen with the other Ukrainian flight...no justice

CrankyHaus

fritzelly wrote: »

Fair enough but there was lots of traffic at the same altitude from the same location - something doesn't add up (not going the conspiracy route)

Simple operator error of a complex system during a very tense time cannot be discounted.
If it were a missile the Iranian operators may have lacked sufficient experience and adequate training.
The S300 system was only delivered by Russia to Iran in 2016.

For example with the flight 655 shoot-down in 1988 a hitherto unflagged user interface issue with Aegis recycling tracking nunbers arose while the crew were tense and under pressure. The tracking number assigned to flight 655 was suddenly recycled to a distant fighter seconds before the missiles launched.

Of course this is all conjecture for now. Aviation accidents are complex and take time to investigate even if the waters aren't being deliberately muddied. But Iranian declarations within hours of the crash that it was definitely mechanical failure are no less dubious, more so in fact.

THE_SHEEP

Maliyah Agreeable Software wrote: »

Had Trump not ordered the killing last week, these innocent people would be alive. Terribly sad.

Big bad Trump's fault again , Lol !!

wcooba

Nijmegen wrote: »

The fault needs to turn and lay with the leadership of Iran who kept commercial flights going whilst going to their highest hair trigger state of readiness, and then lying about it.

IMO they deliberately (and cynically) kept the airport open for civil operation to make it less likely target.

Letwin_Larry

wcooba wrote: »

IMO they deliberately (and cynically) kept the airport open for civil operation to make it less likely target.

like all terrorists they like to hide behind innocent women & children, and then cry foul when something awful happens.

fritzelly

More like if he came out and said they shot the plane down no-one would believe him
Played a good game and let the evidence speak for itself and then confirmed it when things started coming out

Irish Steve

OK, this will be hard for some people, but we've reached the threshold of irritability in this thread. A number of off topic or just plain trolling posts have been deleted, for a number of reasons.

It is a discussion thread about the crash of Ukrainian PS752. It is not a speculation thread for posting wild theories about what might have happened, Pprune is the place for them.

IT IS NOT a thread for political diatribe about the relevance or otherwise of Trump's recent actions, or about the political situation in the Middle East, they are subjects for the Political arena, or the conspiracy forum, depending on your viewpoint.

It is also not the right thread for the sort of Boeing bashing that some have been indulging in, and also not the place for the Boeing versus Airbus differences. There are very significant numbers of 737-800 aircraft in service across the globe, and while all types have issues, I am not aware of any major issues outstanding on the 800 series that would easily explain the accident that has happened in this case.

A significant number of people have lost their lives in what is beginning to look like another mistaken identity of the aircraft type and purpose.

Future posts that are off topic will be deleted, and may also incur an infraction

smurfjed

Probably just removing it to the hanger.

Don’t you think that it might have taken a little bit more time to remove the bodies and map the location of the aircraft parts for analysis, so its a little bit early to have a JCB moving stuff to the hangar.