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Compulsory retirement and the rise in the State pension age.

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    #182
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    The only sure way to insulate oneself from not getting the benefit of decades of payment towards the state pension is be careful not to contribute to any private pension.

    There is no point paying into a private scheme, accumulating say 300k on the idea that you will double your state pension and have a decent retirement, if you are just going to make oneself ineligible for the state one, and end up living on the same as someone who saved nothing.

    Private pensions are dead for all but the superwealthy for whom the state pension is neither here nor there.

    This is the grift the govt is setting up - get suckers to pay for two pensions while they are working, but only give them the benefits of one of them, when the day comes. You may as well spend and enjoy now rather than saving for someone else's pension.


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    #183
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,325 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    There have been no increases in PS pensions or scales for some time, more than 15 years iirc. There has been some restoration of some cuts.



    Except that they don't have restoration of their pay thanks to the PRD, the additional pension deduction that doesn't go into a pension fund, has no link to your actual pension, and is deducted from low-wage staff who get no benefit for it beyond the standard state pension anyway.




    I'm 90% sure that this is incorrect. Do you have any source to support your claims that;


    - pensions did NOT get cuts
    - pensioners got restorations of cuts that they never suffered

    So many errors.

    For a start PRD isn't taken off anyone below 32k.

    Pensions did not get cuts? They did yeah, look up PSPR.

    But the three PS pay cuts (incl. PRD) didn't impact on pensioners.

    Not only has PSPR been broadly restored, but PS pensioners have gotten increases in each of the last four years (and will again in 2020) as their pensions are linked to the relevant service grade (which had always been the case).


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    #184
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,740 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    noodler wrote: »
    For a start PRD isn't taken off anyone below 32k.

    Isn't it €28,750 is the threshold? From http://www.cspensions.gov.ie/faq5.pdf
    noodler wrote: »
    Pensions did not get cuts? They did yeah, look up PSPR.
    Thanks for this clarification - very helpful. I stand corrected.
    noodler wrote: »
    But the three PS pay cuts (incl. PRD) didn't impact on pensioners.

    Not only has PSPR been broadly restored, but PS pensioners have gotten increases in each of the last four years (and will again in 2020) as their pensions are linked to the relevant service grade (which had always been the case).

    I'm still confused about this. If the cuts didn't impact them, then how come the restoration of those cuts impacted them.

    There have been in increases in grades in the last four years - just restoration of previous cuts. The grades haven't changed, so how can pensions linked to the grades have changed?


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    #185
    Nigel Fairservice
    Registered Users, Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 2,200 Mod ✭✭✭✭Nigel Fairservice


    I think PRD was replaced by ASC and the entry threshold for it was raised on 01/01/2020.


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    #186
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,325 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Nigel Fairservice wrote: »
    I think PRD was replaced by ASC and the entry threshold for it was raised on 01/01/2020.

    And previously on 01/2019.

    The document the poster linked to has a date of mid 2018 which strengthens my belief he/she is pretty uninformed on the issues being discussed.


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    #187
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,325 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Isn't it €28,750 is the threshold? From http://www.cspensions.gov.ie/faq5.pdf


    Thanks for this clarification - very helpful. I stand corrected.



    I'm still confused about this. If the cuts didn't impact them, then how come the restoration of those cuts impacted them.

    There have been in increases in grades in the last four years - just restoration of previous cuts. The grades haven't changed, so how can pensions linked to the grades have changed?

    The link between PS pay and existing PS pensioners is one way - upwards.

    The scales for the grades increased.

    With the LRA agreement (2015-2017) and the the PSSA agreement (2017-2020). Annual increases across the board.


    Therefore, the way the pensioners pension is calculated is adjusted.



    The legislation is there to change it so it's linked to the CPI which would be much cheaper but it has not been enacted.

    https://www.rte.ie/amp/871891/


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    #188
    Trigger Happy
    Registered Users Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭Trigger Happy


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    The only sure way to insulate oneself from not getting the benefit of decades of payment towards the state pension is be careful not to contribute to any private pension.

    There is no point paying into a private scheme, accumulating say 300k on the idea that you will double your state pension and have a decent retirement, if you are just going to make oneself ineligible for the state one, and end up living on the same as someone who saved nothing.

    Private pensions are dead for all but the superwealthy for whom the state pension is neither here nor there.

    This is the grift the govt is setting up - get suckers to pay for two pensions while they are working, but only give them the benefits of one of them, when the day comes. You may as well spend and enjoy now rather than saving for someone else's pension.

    Surely most private pensions would be giving more than a thousand a month? I would not want to live my old age on the state pension and will carry on putting money away for my retirement.
    Fck living in poverty on a state pension.


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    #189
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    Surely most private pensions would be giving more than a thousand a month? I would not want to live my old age on the state pension and will carry on putting money away for my retirement.
    Fck living in poverty on a state pension.

    They dont.The average is less than €500 a month.

    To equal the state pension would require having a fund of over 300k at retirement.
    And if you have that, then, the state may well say "you're OK, you have your 1k a month so no need to give you a state pension as well, sorry we cant afford it, we need it to give something to all those who have no private pension at all and will starve if we dont give them a 1000 a month".
    Making people work to 68 is just another way of reducing when they would have to start paying.


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    #190
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,325 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    They dont.The average is less than €500 a month.

    To equal the state pension would require having a fund of over 300k at retirement.
    And if you have that, then, the state may well say "you're OK, you have your 1k a month so no need to give you a state pension as well, sorry we cant afford it, we need it to give something to all those who have no private pension at all and will starve if we dont give them a 1000 a month".
    Making people work to 68 is just another way of reducing when they would have to start paying.

    Of course it is?

    Was there ever another reason?

    4 workers supporting each pensioner now, will be 2 in the next 30 years.


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    #191
    acalmenvoy
    Registered Users Posts: 882 ✭✭✭acalmenvoy


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    The only sure way to insulate oneself from not getting the benefit of decades of payment towards the state pension is be careful not to contribute to any private pension.

    There is no point paying into a private scheme, accumulating say 300k on the idea that you will double your state pension and have a decent retirement, if you are just going to make oneself ineligible for the state one, and end up living on the same as someone who saved nothing.

    Private pensions are dead for all but the superwealthy for whom the state pension is neither here nor there.

    This is the grift the govt is setting up - get suckers to pay for two pensions while they are working, but only give them the benefits of one of them, when the day comes. You may as well spend and enjoy now rather than saving for someone else's pension.

    Thats a scary thing to read, but sadly, probably true.


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    #192
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,325 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    It costs about 230m a year for the State Pension at a static rate with the additional numbers of retired coming onboard.

    It's already a difficult to sustain at current PSRI rates

    What's really making it unsustainable is adding a further 200m a year cost onto that every time they decide to increase it universally by a fiver regardless of whether your a person with three pension schemes alongside your State one or if you are living one with it as your sole means of income.


    I don't believe it'll ever be the case someone wouldn't be eligible at all (he'll, even now someone without the required stamps gets a huge chunk of the 250 p.m) but what they could do as money gets tight is means-test any future increase.


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    #193
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,528 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    I know it's mad....

    So many in my job haven't even made it to retirement or just out few months and they die.

    My dad looked forward to his pension and retirement, brought us out for dinner when he got it. Then died suddenly 6 months later.


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    #194
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,740 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    noodler wrote: »
    The link between PS pay and existing PS pensioners is one way - upwards.

    The scales for the grades increased.

    With the LRA agreement (2015-2017) and the the PSSA agreement (2017-2020). Annual increases across the board.
    There were no increases - only restoration of previous cuts.


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    #195
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    There were no increases - only restoration of previous cuts.

    Angels. Heads. Pins.


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    #196
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    _Brian wrote: »
    My dad looked forward to his pension and retirement, brought us out for dinner when he got it. Then died suddenly 6 months later.

    "past performance is not an indicator of future performance"


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    #197
    Doctor Nick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,506 ✭✭✭Doctor Nick


    punisher5112 wrote: »

    This is the same bull I hear that drug addicts don't get free travel as they do....

    ???

    Nonsense. As a now recovered drug addict I never got free travel when active. Nor did any of my addict "mates" from that time. I was aware of some addicts using fake travel passes (pre PSC) so maybe that's what you're thinking of. Even they were a minority.


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    #198
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    elperello wrote: »
    Worth noting that TD's and Senators can happily work away over 65.

    If they did some fecking work before they turned 65 we'd be in a better place now.


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    #199
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,740 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Angels. Heads. Pins.
    Facts directly relevant to the question of pension cuts/restoration.


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    #200
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,325 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Facts directly relevant to the question of pension cuts/restoration.

    By definition, it's an increase.

    2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 and again in 2020.

    (Ignoring increments of course).


    There's alot you don't seem to know but again, even the cuts have been paid back in full and then some for all but the highest paid.


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    #201
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    I just read an article on another site that reports 89 pensioners in emergency accommodation in Dublin. Jesus H. Christ. You expect a bit of comfort at that stage of your life.


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    #202
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Doctor Nick wrote: »
    ???

    Nonsense. As a now recovered drug addict I never got free travel when active. Nor did any of my addict "mates" from that time. I was aware of some addicts using fake travel passes (pre PSC) so maybe that's what you're thinking of. Even they were a minority.

    Eh no, they have legitimate as they claim disability.

    Of course there were loads of takes on the older ones.

    Not every drug addict has them but many do and that includes most on methadone for example.

    Look don't believe me, I work as a bus driver I see it all.


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    #203
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    I know one addict on a methadone programme who has free travel, but it is not because of his addiction. Its because he is on disability allowance due to his disagnosis of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.


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    #204
    Doctor Nick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,506 ✭✭✭Doctor Nick


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Eh no, they have legitimate as they claim disability.

    Of course there were loads of takes on the older ones.

    Not every drug addict has them but many do and that includes most on methadone for example.

    Look don't believe me, I work as a bus driver I see it all.

    I'm sorry but that is not my experience of it. When I ended up on a clinic and, being in that cycle of selfishness, made an appointment with the welfare officer I asked about both disability and free travel and was told I would qualify for neither of them. He told me it is a myth that addiction automatically qualifies you for disability. I'd heard I'd get both from many people over the years and was very surprised this wasn't the case.

    Of course, it may be the case that long term addicts who have failed to kick the habit may eventually qualify for disability. I'm fortunate to have "only" spent five years on a methadone clinic before returning to a normal life of employment and responsibilities. In the 6/7 years I spent in active addiction very few had legitimate free travel passes. Emphasis on legitimate.

    Don't want to derail thread any further.


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    #205
    Doctor Nick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,506 ✭✭✭Doctor Nick


    AulWan wrote: »
    I know one addict on a methadone programme who has free travel, but it is not because of his addiction. Its because he is on disability allowance due to his disagnosis of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.

    Very good point. A lot of addicts have preexisting mental health problems.


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    #206
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,128 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Eh no, they have legitimate as they claim disability.

    Of course there were loads of takes on the older ones.

    Not every drug addict has them but many do and that includes most on methadone for example.

    Look don't believe me, I work as a bus driver I see it all.

    But as a bus driver you have no idea what their disability is . ? Being on Methadone does not eliminate other mental health or indeed physical disabilities .


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    #207
    Trigger Happy
    Registered Users Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭Trigger Happy


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    They dont.The average is less than €500 a month.

    To equal the state pension would require having a fund of over 300k at retirement.
    And if you have that, then, the state may well say "you're OK, you have your 1k a month so no need to give you a state pension as well, sorry we cant afford it, we need it to give something to all those who have no private pension at all and will starve if we dont give them a 1000 a month".
    Making people work to 68 is just another way of reducing when they would have to start paying.

    So your argument is that there is no point saving in a private pension because a future government might deny you the state pension?
    I much prefer not to be at the mercy of future governments and have sufficed private pension to be happily comfortable with or without the state pension.
    The 500 figure you mention is surprisingly low. I would have thought it higher but trust you. How can people live comfortably on that plus the state pension?


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    #208
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,659 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    So your argument is that there is no point saving in a private pension because a future government might deny you the state pension?
    I much prefer not to be at the mercy of future governments and have sufficed private pension to be happily comfortable with or without the state pension.
    The 500 figure you mention is surprisingly low. I would have thought it higher but trust you. How can people live comfortably on that plus the state pension?

    I find the €500 figure surprisingly low too.

    However the state pension plus €500 per month is the basis for quite a comfortable life for many people.

    Most older people are mortgage/rent free and don't have the same outgoings as a person working ie. transport, clothing, lunches.

    Of course it all depends on the style of life you want


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    #209
    Trigger Happy
    Registered Users Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭Trigger Happy


    elperello wrote: »

    Of course it all depends on the style of life you want

    I think that is the key. Some people will be happy with a simple cut down vers5of their current lives.
    When I retire I want to be able to do all the things I dont have time for now. Travel, hobbies etc. I want to be able to afford to drive, insure myself, private health insurance etc.
    The state pension, whatever it will be worth when I retire, won't fund that. So I am building up a private pension that will hopefully cover me. Also want to retire early...but we will see if that is possible.


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    #210
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Oh Christ on a bike.....

    I'm done, absolute scum bags have free travel, drug addicts do get them has nothing to do with social as they get signed off by the doctor.

    I carry them every day.....

    I know others work in health care with them and also in welfare.

    Obviously it's not meant to be easy but it's also the same as others state kids don't get them as they sure as hell do under certain circumstances.

    I carry school kids and they also have companions passes.... Funny as welfare site even states this isn't possible but hey it is....


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    #211
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    elperello wrote: »
    I find the €500 figure surprisingly low too

    €4800/an from 120k pot.
    https://www.businessworld.ie/financial-news/New-survey-reveals-Irish-people-s-views-on-a-good-retirement-572802.html

    €3000/an
    https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/60-a-week-thats-all-your-pension-will-be-worth-34968732.html

    €6000/an
    https://www.thejournal.ie/pension-cover-ireland-2565427-Jan2016/

    Depends on the details, how the pension is cashed, annuity values, increasing annually or not etc. A lot have higher of course, but the average is still no more than 500 a month. And that figure more likely to decrease than in crease in the coming decades as people have been essentially saving less with the widespread changeover from defined benefit schemes to defined contributions.

    The point is you would have to exceed savings of 300k by retirement to roughly equal the current state pension. Which is still a challenging enough sum for many, but puts you in the twilight zone of whether the bet of saving is worthwhile if it risks being eroded back by a means tested cut in your state pension.

    Different story of course if you are in the world of heading for a pension fund in the million range - income of 40k ish a year. So the state pension is a very nice addition to that, but if trimmed, is not that big an impact on your overall standard of retirement. But the vaste majority is not on the road for a €1M pension pot, or anywhere near it.


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