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Champions Cup 2019/20

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    #302
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,057 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Awful format. They should've just gone to a straight knock out tournament with top 4 teams in each league, with a bye or such


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    #303
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Awful format. They should've just gone to a straight knock out tournament with top 4 teams in each league, with a bye or such
    Why would you reduce the number of games by such a large amount?
    Its a terrible format but straight knock out would be far worse


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    #304
    Kevski
    Registered Users Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Kevski


    If each team will play two other teams, home and away, then would 8 groups of 3 teams not have been a more straightforward format...?


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    #305
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,901 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Crazy format. At least in other years if you won all your games you were guaranteed a quarter final spot. Now you could win all your games and still not qualify because another team you didn't even get to play had an easier draw.


    But if 8 teams qualify for the QFs and it's only possible for 6 to win all their games, then that's not correct.


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    #306
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,197 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    But if 8 teams qualify for the QFs and it's only possible for 6 to win all their games, then that's not correct.

    It's possible for 6 teams in each pool to win all of their games. 12 in total.

    But it's just a hypothetical situation and very unlikely.

    No matter what format they go with, people are going to complain.


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    #307
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    So basically its a competition to see how much the Tier 1 teams can hump the Tier 4 teams by to see who tops the pools?

    That's my take. Doesn't exactly introduce new opportunities like the explainer video implies.


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    #308
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,057 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    Why would you reduce the number of games by such a large amount?
    Its a terrible format but straight knock out would be far worse

    The season is already compacted,.with a Lions tour to boot. I'd rather an actual "Elite" tournament, than this Mickey mouse effort.


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    #309
    connachta
    Registered Users Posts: 7,965 ✭✭✭connachta


    So basically its a competition to see how much the Tier 1 teams can hump the Tier 4 teams by to see who tops the pools?

    Again, no.

    Sale won't "hamp" Montpellier at all, it might be the reverse.

    Connacht and revamped Dragons are 100% able to beat Bordeaux or Lyon at home too.

    Tiers don't mean anything, especially this year. Racing 2nd tier, Toulouse 3rd tier, they are not behind the above. Just haven't defended their chances after being weakened by international periods


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    #310
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    The season is already compacted,.with a Lions tour to boot. I'd rather an actual "Elite" tournament, than this Mickey mouse effort.
    A straight knock out with far less teams wouldnt be better though


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    #311
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    molloyjh wrote: »
    It isn't actually that confusing really, it's just the video goes through it too quickly. I also don't think it's actually skewed in favour of any tier either. The big teams that people want to avoid are the likes of Leinster, Exeter, Racing, Clermont and Toulouse. They are all scattered throughout the tiers. The way it is explained, i.e. tier 1 plays tier 4, sounds skewed. But when you look at the teams in those tiers you could be looking at Leinster playing Toulouse while Connacht play Edinburgh.

    It is a bit of a mess though for just the 1 less game.

    I’m sorry but that is absurd. It is 100% skewed in favour of tier 1 teams. They are playing teams that finished 7th and 8th in their domestic leagues and wouldn’t ordinarily even qualify for the competition! Toulouse are a stand out tier 4 team but even then we are assuming they will revert to form they didn’t show in the 2019-2020 season.


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    #312
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,901 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I’m sorry but that is absurd. It is 100% skewed in favour of tier 1 teams. They are playing teams that finished 7th and 8th in their domestic leagues and wouldn’t ordinarily even qualify for the competition! Toulouse are a stand out tier 4 team but even then we are assuming they will revert to form they didn’t show in the 2019-2020 season.

    That would be ECC home quarter finalists Toulouse who still had 9 league games to play and were the grand total of 2 points off 6th and 6 points off third place?

    Too much emphasis is being put on where they were in the table without looking at how tight it actually was between second and eight.

    Are you claiming that 6th place Clermont are going to be an easy touch too?


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    #313
    connachta
    Registered Users Posts: 7,965 ✭✭✭connachta


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    That would be ECC home quarter finalists Toulouse who still had 9 league games to play and were the grand total of 2 points off 6th and 6 points off third place?

    Too much emphasis is being put on where they were in the table without looking at how tight it actually was between second and eight.

    Are you claiming that 6th place Clermont are going to be an easy touch too?


    And Gloucester.
    Even Dragons when their "fabulous 4" arrive.


    There will be absolutely no "walkovers".

    London Irish, Worcester, Castres might have been, but not those 24


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    #314
    Rigor Mortis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭Rigor Mortis


    There are plenty of walkovers in there.

    The gap between the top 5 or 6 teams in Europe and the rest is substantial and widening.

    The reduction in the number of pool games means that the very rare surprise will have an exagerated impact.


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    #315
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,057 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    A straight knock out with far less teams wouldnt be better though

    I'd disagree with you on that point. Looking to the future, if a realigned season came to pass, a straightforward knockout Euro Comp would be my preference. After the completion of the leagues


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    #316
    connachta
    Registered Users Posts: 7,965 ✭✭✭connachta


    Rigor Mortis wrote: »
    There are plenty of walkovers in there.

    The gap between the top 5 or 6 teams in Europe and the rest is substantial and widening.

    The reduction in the number of pool games means that the very rare surprise will have an exagerated impact.




    I 100% disagree


    I bet Connacht/Dragons to beat Sale and Lyon and Bordeaux at home


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    #317
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    I'd disagree with you on that point. Looking to the future, if a realigned season came to pass, a straightforward knockout Euro Comp would be my preference. After the completion of the leagues
    So we have fewer teams represented in europe and closing off game to the top elite. Why is that a good thing. We need to be looking at expanding the sport not looking inwards.
    Its the same with international game and Ireland and 6 Nations need to do a lot more for Georgia etc and Rugby championship sides need to do way more for fijis etc


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    #318
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    That would be ECC home quarter finalists Toulouse who still had 9 league games to play and were the grand total of 2 points off 6th and 6 points off third place?

    Too much emphasis is being put on where they were in the table without looking at how tight it actually was between second and eight.

    Are you claiming that 6th place Clermont are going to be an easy touch too?

    They had a pretty easy group.

    The French will always throw things for a loop a bit, particularly given their varying degrees of attachment to the Euro cup. But tier 1 teams will now avoid racing, Toulon and Clermont completely. Gloucester a much easier scalp than Bristol also. The glut of teams in 2-6 that tier 1 teams now miss completely is what we need to compare to tier 4 teams and the difference is noticeable.


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    #319
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    connachta wrote: »
    I 100% disagree


    I bet Connacht/Dragons to beat Sale and Lyon and Bordeaux at home

    Bordeaux are guaranteed 2 games against Connacht or Dragons instead of potentially against Munster. They’ll be laughing.


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    #320
    connachta
    Registered Users Posts: 7,965 ✭✭✭connachta


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Bordeaux are guaranteed 2 games against Connacht or Dragons instead of potentially against Munster. They’ll be laughing.




    Yeah they should laugh a wee bit less coming down at the Sportsground, like Toulouse, Montpelier, Gloucester, Harlequins, Sale, Wasps, before them


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    #321
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,057 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    So we have fewer teams represented in europe and closing off game to the top elite. Why is that a good thing. We need to be looking at expanding the sport not looking inwards.
    Its the same with international game and Ireland and 6 Nations need to do a lot more for Georgia etc and Rugby championship sides need to do way more for fijis etc

    I'd rather the Euro be an elite comp. There's enough scope with the leagues and Challenge cup for broadening the game at club level. There's also the simple fact that the calender is too full anyway, with the top level players absent far too often from their clubs. You can argue that it helps bring on new players, which has its merits, but it devalues the quality of the league when the best players don't play.


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    #322
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    I'd rather the Euro be an elite comp. There's enough scope with the leagues and Challenge cup for broadening the game at club level. There's also the simple fact that the calender is too full anyway, with the top level players absent far too often from their clubs. You can argue that it helps bring on new players, which has its merits, but it devalues the quality of the league when the best players don't play.
    It would still be an elite competition and have best playing. Straight knockout two legged affairs works well in soccer and other sports but just wouldnt work as well in rugby


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    #323
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    They had a pretty easy group.

    So did Exeter and, in the end, Leinster.

    Difficult draws happen. Look at Munsters pool in the 19/20 HEC. Slightly easier draws happen too.

    Leinster playing Toulouse is not an easy draw. Munster could get Northampton and La Rochelle. Connacht could get Sale and Lyon. I'd take either of those over Harlequins and Toulouse any day.

    Theres not much between a lot of the English sides at this stage. Its the French teams that we should all be looking at. And the likes of Lyon and La Rochelle have shown little interest in Europe to date. So yeah, one of Munster or Ulster will draw a tough French side. The other will draw a handy one. Leinster could just as easily draw either a tough one or a handy one too. Theres not a whole lot in it really.


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    #324
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Bordeaux are guaranteed 2 games against Connacht or Dragons instead of potentially against Munster. They’ll be laughing.

    Surely Bordeaux could be playing a Tier 4 team from England?


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    #325
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Former Former wrote: »
    Surely Bordeaux could be playing a Tier 4 team from England?

    Both. They are up against Connacht/Dragons and Harlequins/Gloucester.

    We've no idea how bothered they'll be with Europe though. Just look at La Rochelle and Lyon in recent years.


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    #326
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,057 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    It would still be an elite competition and have best playing. Straight knockout two legged affairs works well in soccer and other sports but just wouldnt work as well in rugby

    I understand this year is a aberration, but you can hardly say that having 8 teams from each league represents the elite. I also think that if you have it as a straight knockout, you're more apt to get better motivation for the competition from the French teams, than you do currently.


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    #327
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,249 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    It would still be an elite competition and have best playing. Straight knockout two legged affairs works well in soccer and other sports but just wouldnt work as well in rugby


    any competition where 60% of the possible teams which can qualify for it, qualifies for it... can certainly not be considered an elite competition.

    I accept its an once off for next season, but even a 20 team comp has 50% of the possible teams qualifying for it..... very hard to consider than an elite competition either.


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    #328
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Former Former wrote: »
    Surely Bordeaux could be playing a Tier 4 team from England?

    Bordeaux will play a tier 4 team from England. And one from PRO14. And if they are in any way competent they will qualify for the QFs ridiculously easily.


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    #329
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Leinster playing Toulouse is not an easy draw. Munster could get Northampton and La Rochelle. Connacht could get Sale and Lyon. I'd take either of those over Harlequins and Toulouse any day.

    Why? Sale seem pretty comfortably better than Quins at the moment. The only reason Toulouse seems like a worse draw is because they generally take the competition more seriously. Considering how easily the French Tier 1 teams should be able to qualify this time I’m not sure they’ll be so abject. But let’s see.

    The benefit for Irish teams is definitely less but there is a massive disparity in the way this is being run for everyone.


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    #330
    connachta
    Registered Users Posts: 7,965 ✭✭✭connachta


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Bordeaux will play a tier 4 team from England. And one from PRO14. And if they are in any way competent they will qualify for the QFs ridiculously easily.




    So you bet Bordeaux to win away to Gloucester, Harlerquins and Connacht or new Dragons?
    Which is the only way to go through (and still not certain as said above)
    How many would you bet?
    I'm 90% sure they'll lost at least one


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    #331
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    connachta wrote: »
    So you bet Bordeaux to win away to Gloucester, Harlerquins and Connacht or new Dragons?
    Which is the only way to go through (and still not certain as said above)
    How many would you bet?
    I'm 90% sure they'll lost at least one

    I bet them to do better than they would against Munster and Northampton yes. Which is all that matters.


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