Near Misses Volume 2 (So close you can feel it)

kenmm

DelBoy Trotter wrote: »

But what is the actual point of putting yourself in that position when you know what’s about to happen? Being safe is a lot more important than proving you’re in the right

Unfortunately it took me far too long to realise that!

buffalo

DelBoy Trotter wrote: »

But what is the actual point of putting yourself in that position when you know what’s about to happen? Being safe is a lot more important than proving you’re in the right

Because if you hang back and stay out of the way, the driver will sail on oblivious that they came *this* close to running someone over due to their sloppy driving and lack of observation. And they'll never realise that.

And next time the driver ends up interacting with a cyclist in the same way, that cyclist might not be so prepared. And what might happen then?

if you're prepared for it, you can show them that they need to be more alert and careful.

breezy1985

kenmm wrote: »

I didn't say or interpret it as angry, how could I?

But others might. And it's a stereotype for many people.


Anyway, the main point was, why not pull back a bit / read the road further ahead, especially in small busy streets.

If the van indicated I would say ya hold off but I dont think he did and we cant be stopping at every junction just in case

DelBoy Trotter

buffalo wrote: »

Because if you hang back and stay out of the way, the driver will sail on oblivious that they came *this* close to running someone over due to their sloppy driving and lack of observation. And they'll never realise that.

And next time the driver ends up interacting with a cyclist in the same way, that cyclist might not be so prepared. And what might happen then?

if you're prepared for it, you can show them that they need to be more alert and careful.

So you think correcting people on the road when you have also made a mistake (putting yourself in that position when you know it’s going to happen) helps? I certainly don’t. There’s a difference between taking your lane when it’s safer for you and will make motorists realise it’s a bad time to overtake, and going up the inside of traffic which you know is turning left just to prove a point (again bringing it back to my original point that it’s better being safe than trying to prove you’re right)

magicbastarder

kenmm wrote: »

I didn't say or interpret it as angry, how could I?

But others might. And it's a stereotype for many people.

what's the takeaway so? don't even give a conciliatory gesture?

breezy1985

DelBoy Trotter wrote: »

So you think correcting people on the road when you have also made a mistake (putting yourself in that position when you know it’s going to happen) helps? I certainly don’t. There’s a difference between taking your lane when it’s safer for you and will make motorists realise it’s a bad time to overtake, and going up the inside of traffic which you know is turning left just to prove a point (again bringing it back to my original point that it’s better being safe than trying to prove you’re right)

He didnt go up the inside of traffic he was in a lane and the driver should check if the lane is free before proceeding. If it was 2 lanes of cars and the van crossed the left lane without checking we wouldnt be having this debate

DelBoy Trotter

breezy1985 wrote: »

He didnt go up the inside of traffic he was in a lane and the driver should check if the lane is free before proceeding. If it was 2 lanes of cars and the van crossed the left lane without checking we wouldnt be having this debate

I certainly would be having the same debate if it was as you described above. There’s no debate that the van shouldn’t have crossed the left lane. But the cyclist was in the blind spot knowing what was about to happen, just to prove a point. He had the option of keeping himself safe, but chose not to slow down a bit to keep himself safe, as he wanted to prove a point. If the cyclist was in a car, in the blind spot and had copped the van about to turn left across them but didn’t slow to keep themselves safe as they wanted to prove a point, I would say the exact same thing to the car driver

breezy1985

DelBoy Trotter wrote: »

I certainly would be having the same debate if it was as you described above. There’s no debate that the van shouldn’t have crossed the left lane. But the cyclist was in the blind spot knowing what was about to happen, just to prove a point. He had the option of keeping himself safe, but chose not to slow down a bit to keep himself safe, as he wanted to prove a point. If the cyclist was in a car, in the blind spot and had copped the van about to turn left across them but didn’t slow to keep themselves safe as they wanted to prove a point, I would say the exact same thing to the car driver

The van didnt indicate so how do you know he is turning left?

DelBoy Trotter

breezy1985 wrote: »

The van didnt indicate so how do you know he is turning left?

How do you know he wasn’t turning left?

And just to point out, the poster of the video already said they saw it coming

AndrewJRenko

buffalo wrote: »

Because if you hang back and stay out of the way, the driver will sail on oblivious that they came *this* close to running someone over due to their sloppy driving and lack of observation. And they'll never realise that.

And next time the driver ends up interacting with a cyclist in the same way, that cyclist might not be so prepared. And what might happen then?

if you're prepared for it, you can show them that they need to be more alert and careful.

I’d thank this post multiple times if I could, it’s bang on the money.

AndrewJRenko

breezy1985 wrote: »

If the van indicated I would say ya hold off but I dont think he did and we cant be stopping at every junction just in case

I’d thank this post multiple times if I could, it’s bang on the money

buffalo

DelBoy Trotter wrote: »

So you think correcting people on the road when you have also made a mistake (putting yourself in that position when you know it’s going to happen) helps? I certainly don’t. There’s a difference between taking your lane when it’s safer for you and will make motorists realise it’s a bad time to overtake, and going up the inside of traffic which you know is turning left just to prove a point (again bringing it back to my original point that it’s better being safe than trying to prove you’re right)

So you think letting people continue to make poor decisions without even minor consequences (drawing their attention to it) helps? I certainly don't.

The next time they make that same poor decision, the consequence could be much greater - potentially fatal for someone. Left hooks are the most frequent killer of cyclists in Ireland, or were at one point. HGVs usually responsible for the deaths, I can only imagine how many smaller vehicles caused injuries.

Chiparus

kenmm wrote: »

I didn't say or interpret it as angry, how could I?

But others might. And it's a stereotype for many people.


Anyway, the main point was, why not pull back a bit / read the road further ahead, especially in small busy streets.

If someone pulled across form the ouside lane of a dual carriage way to make a left turn without indicating , forcing you on the inside lane to brake , would you beep your horn?

kenmm

So that got rather silly, fast.

You all know a cycle lane in one of the busiest bits if road in central Dublin is not the same as a dual carriageway.
Different set of observational skills. If it were like a dual carriageway then what are you comparing it to? Traveling at 60/70 mph (therefore you are illegally undertaking) or slow moving traffic, but unlikely to have a sharp left turn. The analogy doesn't work for me.

To answer the 'slow down for every junction'. No that's nonsense. To excercise a bit of caution in a busy city centre (maybe the top 5 busiest section of Dublin?). Yes. To read the road ahead and not pass a van or larger vehicle on the inside near a junction (especially one that was obviously busy as there was slow moving traffic entering the junction) yes.

Do I advocate not gesticulating towards somethone making a mistake. I do that a lot less too and my cycles are generally more relaxed. What are you doing otherwise? You are not there to teach every driver or road user the error of there ways.


On top of that prevention is better than the cure. But please, feel free to completely miss that point and carry on with petty arguments.

kenmm

buffalo wrote: »

So you think letting people continue to make poor decisions without even minor consequences (drawing their attention to it) helps? I certainly don't.

The next time they make that same poor decision, the consequence could be much greater - potentially fatal for someone. Left hooks are the most frequent killer of cyclists in Ireland, or were at one point. HGVs usually responsible for the deaths, I can only imagine how many smaller vehicles caused injuries.

You can't stop people making bad decisions.


You can't teach lessons from the side if the road. You are more likely to p!ss people off. Ironically because a lot of the time they won't admit fault in the first place.
That's a double irony in this case because the van driver immediately took full responsibility and secondly, well this thread and learning lessons...

I've said my piece. It was a gentle suggestion to practice reading ahead a bit more. We have probably derailed the thread enough. I'm not getting dragged into it anymore at least.

kenmm

magicbastarder wrote: »

what's the takeaway so? don't even give a conciliatory gesture?

Ok.. dragged in one more time..

Don't even be in the dangerous position in the first place.

If something unavoidable happens, then I reserve the right to tell them to f right off.

breezy1985

kenmm wrote: »

So that got rather silly, fast.

You all know a cycle lane in one of the busiest bits if road in central Dublin is not the same as a dual carriageway.
Different set of observational skills. If it were like a dual carriageway then what are you comparing it to? Traveling at 60/70 mph (therefore you are illegally undertaking) or slow moving traffic, but unlikely to have a sharp left turn. The analogy doesn't work for me.

To answer the 'slow down for every junction'. No that's nonsense. To excercise a bit of caution in a busy city centre (maybe the top 5 busiest section of Dublin?). Yes. To read the road ahead and not pass a van or larger vehicle on the inside near a junction (especially one that was obviously busy as there was slow moving traffic entering the junction) yes.

Do I advocate not gesticulating towards somethone making a mistake. I do that a lot less too and my cycles are generally more relaxed. What are you doing otherwise? You are not there to teach every driver or road user the error of there ways.


On top of that prevention is better than the cure. But please, feel free to completely miss that point and carry on with petty arguments.

People on here are always goin on about missing the point when people disagree as if we are too stupid to get what is being said.

We get the point you are making we just think its a dumb one

kenmm

breezy1985 wrote: »

People on here are always goin on about missing the point when people disagree as if we are too stupid to get what is being said.

We get the point you are making we just think its a dumb one

Well it didn't appear that way when people are banging on about irrelevant situations (dual carriageways, wtf) and teaching people how to drive.

But if you do get the point (ie don't put yourself in danger) and you either think that is dumb or it doesn't apply then fair enough.

I only originally posted because I thought this was a non event and a pretty dumb position to be in (the inside of a van at the corner of a junction).


Edit: and since we just had a new cyclists posting immediately before, I would say that I would advise anyone to practice better observation skills and not put yourself in this position. To me that's common sense.

breezy1985

kenmm wrote: »

Well it didn't appear that way when people are banging on about irrelevant situations (dual carriageways, wtf) and teaching people how to drive.

But if you do get the point (ie don't put yourself in danger) and you either think that is dumb or it doesn't apply then fair enough.

I only originally posted because I thought this was a non event and a pretty dumb position to be in (the inside of a van at the corner of a junction).


Edit: and since we just had a new cyclists posting immediately before, I would say that I would advise anyone to practice better observation skills and not put yourself in this position. To me that's common sense.

I dont think not putting yourself in danger is dumb I think stopping at every junction in case some van that is in a different lane and doesnt indicate might feel like turning is dumb. I also think victim blaming is dumb which is what you are doing

You are twisting facts again he was not on"the inside of a van at the corner of a junction" he was in a seperate lane and done nothing wrong by proceeding.

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

Keep it civil please. It’s possible to disagree with a one another without calling each other’s posts “dumb”.

Be nice.

randomname2005

kenmm wrote: »

Well it didn't appear that way when people are banging on about irrelevant situations (dual carriageways, wtf) and teaching people how to drive.

But if you do get the point (ie don't put yourself in danger) and you either think that is dumb or it doesn't apply then fair enough.

I only originally posted because I thought this was a non event and a pretty dumb position to be in (the inside of a van at the corner of a junction).


Edit: and since we just had a new cyclists posting immediately before, I would say that I would advise anyone to practice better observation skills and not put yourself in this position. To me that's common sense.

In the video the road is reasonably traffic free and it would have been feasible for the cyclist to hang back in this case without being delayed too much. But consider rush hour where there is a queue of slow moving traffic. Are cyclists supposed to slow down and ensure they are not in every driver's blind spot at every junction? It would be difficult to maintain progress if you were to do that in many areas of Dublin city and probably other areas too.

I think the more realistic approach is to encourage cyclists to cycle cautiously, being aware that scenarios like this are likely to happen and they need to be ready to react to it like this cyclist did. Maybe cycle with hands on the break levers most of the time in areas like this? Remind novice city cyclists that you can't cycle with your head down looking straight ahead. You have to expect that the pedestrian will step out in front of you, that the driver will turn without looking or indicating, that the parked car door will open.

kenmm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I dont think not putting yourself in danger is dumb I think stopping at every junction in case some van that is in a different lane and doesnt indicate might feel like turning is dumb. I also think victim blaming is dumb which is what you are doing

You are twisting facts again he was not on"the inside of a van at the corner of a junction" he was in a seperate lane and done nothing wrong by proceeding.

"He was on the nearside side of a van, in a cycle lane as both the bike and the van were approaching a junction" - does that description fit better? - we are really splitting hairs now.

I didn't say approaching every junction. It's Ranelagh and one of the busiest sections of road in Dublin city. Context is key and forms part of good observational skills. Also, the van was slowing for something, so I would be a little more aware in this situation - it was clear as day something was about to happen and the poster even stated he "saw this coming".

We are going to have to agree to disagree. There is no victim blaming, it was a gentle, polite suggestion to maybe hang back a little in this specific incident. No offense intended, I have no clue why this is causing such a stir.

The cyclist didn't do anything wrong as in illegal, but a little more awareness in these situations is always helpful.

kenmm

randomname2005 wrote: »

But consider rush hour where there is a queue of slow moving traffic. Are cyclists supposed to slow down and ensure they are not in every driver's blind spot at every junction?

Of course not, my comment was intended for this specific clip where there was moving traffic through a busy section (with a bit of hesitation and another cearly busy junction ahead).

Start/stop traffic is a different situation entirely (as is vehicular traffic on a dual carriageway).

randomname2005 wrote: »

I think the more realistic approach is to encourage cyclists to cycle cautiously, being aware that scenarios like this are likely to happen and they need to be ready to react to it like this cyclist did. Maybe cycle with hands on the break levers most of the time in areas like this? Remind novice city cyclists that you can't cycle with your head down looking straight ahead. You have to expect that the pedestrian will step out in front of you, that the driver will turn without looking or indicating, that the parked car door will open.

All of that is good cycling, definitely.

The approach I take is to practice all these skills, focus more about myself and what I can do better and not what other people should have done.

TheChizler

breezy1985 wrote: »

You are twisting facts again he was not on"the inside of a van at the corner of a junction" he was in a seperate lane and done nothing wrong by proceeding.

Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons it's occasionally pointed out in this forum that a cycle lane has no legal distinction as a lane in it's own right and some would consider it part of the same lane. :cool:

Chris871

I had a nearly identical incident about 6 weeks ago, unfortunately it wasn't a near miss in my case. I was left hooked by a jeep that didn't indicate.

A few takeaways from my incident, Never rely on an indicator, Ease off in congested areas & Read the road better(avoid that blindspot).

Oh & most importantly as someone has mentioned here before, if you are unlucky enough to have an accident, make sure the other party isn't an ***hole

magicbastarder

in a situation like that, i'm happy enough to take the lane and insert myself into traffic, but it's not something i suspect a nervous or novice cyclist might be comfortable doing, so i'm hesitant to recommend it.
plus, the fact that the cycle lane is now wanded would make that more fraught.

however, if a cyclist was to have to sit behind a slow moving van in a junction-heavy area like ranelagh, lest the van driver do something stupid, kinda removes one of the benefits of cycling in that not getting stuck in vehicular traffic is one of the attractions of it.

anyway, the van driver was an idiot, he'd clearly passed several cyclists and was not moving nearly fast enough to clear them before swinging left. and it's not as if AJR was melting along at 40km/h.

kenmm

magicbastarder wrote: »

in a situation like that, i'm happy enough to take the lane and insert myself into traffic, but it's not something i suspect a nervous or novice cyclist might be comfortable doing, so i'm hesitant to recommend it.
plus, the fact that the cycle lane is now wanded would make that more fraught.

however, if a cyclist was to have to sit behind a slow moving van in a junction-heavy area like ranelagh, lest the van driver do something stupid, kinda removes one of the benefits of cycling in that not getting stuck in vehicular traffic is one of the attractions of it.

anyway, the van driver was an idiot, he'd clearly passed several cyclists and was not moving nearly fast enough to clear them before swinging left. and it's not as if AJR was melting along at 40km/h.

So is the conclusion from this (apart from the van driver Fu(king up, which is obvious) that as a cyclist, there is nothing to learn from such incidents? It's a question. I'm asking because from any incident (near misses especially) I always look to see what can be learned.

AndrewJRenko

kenmm wrote: »

"He was on the nearside side of a van, in a cycle lane as both the bike and the van were approaching a junction" - does that description fit better? - we are really splitting hairs now.

I didn't say approaching every junction. It's Ranelagh and one of the busiest sections of road in Dublin city. Context is key and forms part of good observational skills. Also, the van was slowing for something, so I would be a little more aware in this situation - it was clear as day something was about to happen and the poster even stated he "saw this coming".

We are going to have to agree to disagree. There is no victim blaming, it was a gentle, polite suggestion to maybe hang back a little in this specific incident. No offense intended, I have no clue why this is causing such a stir.

The cyclist didn't do anything wrong as in illegal, but a little more awareness in these situations is always helpful.

There was no lack of awareness or observation. I knew exactly where the van was, and I was aware there was a chance he would try to left hook me.

I was also away that I would be coming up by his window before he turned, so there was a good chance he would see me there.

I counted 14 junctions on that stretch of Ranelagh today, from the canal bridge to the top of Sandford Road. Am I supposed to hang back at each of the 14 junctions, just in case a driver decides to turn on a whim, without observation or looking at mirrors? And what about every driveway or business entrance, probably about 100 of them on that stretch - am I supposed to hang back at each of those also?

I'm not going to spend my life tugging my forelock and asking permission from the drivers of Dublin to continue my journey if that's OK with all of them thanks very much.

magicbastarder

kenmm wrote: »

So is the conclusion from this (apart from the van driver Fu(king up, which is obvious) that as a cyclist, there is nothing to learn from such incidents?

not sure i'd agree with that assessment? i disagree with some of the conclusions made by other posters (yourself included - what drew me in was the 'don't gesture at motorists' comment), but that doesn't mean there's not a debate to be had.

my takeaway from this is that the parking protected cycle lanes are not an unwelcome move in ways, but they're clearly no panacea to issues cyclists face, and can make some of them worse.

MojoMaker

Heading through Ranelagh towards UCD the new wanded lane causes big problems at the junction with Chelmsford Rd, one of the busier junctions on that stretch. The cycle lane dumps the cyclist out into the middle of the left turning lane who have a green filter arrow, there is nowhere to stop 'cleanly' if you're going straight.

I cycle this route most mornings and without fail every morning I will see at least one vehicle accelerate when seeing bikes in the cycle lane to get to the end of the wanded section before the bikes reach it - in order to pull a rapid left hook so as to avoid waiting for a handful of bikes going straight on to effectively clear the lane.

It's a real hazard and only a matter of time before a serious left hook occurs and a cyclist injury at that exact spot. I normally break the wands and head into the traffic lane about 50m prior to the junction to avoid this situation, but isn't always easy/possible.