Dummy opening post
kenmm wrote: » I didn't say or interpret it as angry, how could I? But others might. And it's a stereotype for many people. Anyway, the main point was, why not pull back a bit / read the road further ahead, especially in small busy streets.
buffalo wrote: » Because if you hang back and stay out of the way, the driver will sail on oblivious that they came *this* close to running someone over due to their sloppy driving and lack of observation. And they'll never realise that. And next time the driver ends up interacting with a cyclist in the same way, that cyclist might not be so prepared. And what might happen then? if you're prepared for it, you can show them that they need to be more alert and careful.
DelBoy Trotter wrote: » So you think correcting people on the road when you have also made a mistake (putting yourself in that position when you know it’s going to happen) helps? I certainly don’t. There’s a difference between taking your lane when it’s safer for you and will make motorists realise it’s a bad time to overtake, and going up the inside of traffic which you know is turning left just to prove a point (again bringing it back to my original point that it’s better being safe than trying to prove you’re right)
breezy1985 wrote: » He didnt go up the inside of traffic he was in a lane and the driver should check if the lane is free before proceeding. If it was 2 lanes of cars and the van crossed the left lane without checking we wouldnt be having this debate
DelBoy Trotter wrote: » I certainly would be having the same debate if it was as you described above. There’s no debate that the van shouldn’t have crossed the left lane. But the cyclist was in the blind spot knowing what was about to happen, just to prove a point. He had the option of keeping himself safe, but chose not to slow down a bit to keep himself safe, as he wanted to prove a point. If the cyclist was in a car, in the blind spot and had copped the van about to turn left across them but didn’t slow to keep themselves safe as they wanted to prove a point, I would say the exact same thing to the car driver
breezy1985 wrote: » The van didnt indicate so how do you know he is turning left?
breezy1985 wrote: » If the van indicated I would say ya hold off but I dont think he did and we cant be stopping at every junction just in case
buffalo wrote: » So you think letting people continue to make poor decisions without even minor consequences (drawing their attention to it) helps? I certainly don't. The next time they make that same poor decision, the consequence could be much greater - potentially fatal for someone. Left hooks are the most frequent killer of cyclists in Ireland, or were at one point. HGVs usually responsible for the deaths, I can only imagine how many smaller vehicles caused injuries.
magicbastarder wrote: » what's the takeaway so? don't even give a conciliatory gesture?
kenmm wrote: » So that got rather silly, fast. You all know a cycle lane in one of the busiest bits if road in central Dublin is not the same as a dual carriageway. Different set of observational skills. If it were like a dual carriageway then what are you comparing it to? Traveling at 60/70 mph (therefore you are illegally undertaking) or slow moving traffic, but unlikely to have a sharp left turn. The analogy doesn't work for me. To answer the 'slow down for every junction'. No that's nonsense. To excercise a bit of caution in a busy city centre (maybe the top 5 busiest section of Dublin?). Yes. To read the road ahead and not pass a van or larger vehicle on the inside near a junction (especially one that was obviously busy as there was slow moving traffic entering the junction) yes. Do I advocate not gesticulating towards somethone making a mistake. I do that a lot less too and my cycles are generally more relaxed. What are you doing otherwise? You are not there to teach every driver or road user the error of there ways. On top of that prevention is better than the cure. But please, feel free to completely miss that point and carry on with petty arguments.
breezy1985 wrote: » People on here are always goin on about missing the point when people disagree as if we are too stupid to get what is being said.We get the point you are making we just think its a dumb one
kenmm wrote: » Well it didn't appear that way when people are banging on about irrelevant situations (dual carriageways, wtf) and teaching people how to drive. But if you do get the point (ie don't put yourself in danger) and you either think that is dumb or it doesn't apply then fair enough. I only originally posted because I thought this was a non event and a pretty dumb position to be in (the inside of a van at the corner of a junction). Edit: and since we just had a new cyclists posting immediately before, I would say that I would advise anyone to practice better observation skills and not put yourself in this position. To me that's common sense.
breezy1985 wrote: » I dont think not putting yourself in danger is dumb I think stopping at every junction in case some van that is in a different lane and doesnt indicate might feel like turning is dumb. I also think victim blaming is dumb which is what you are doing You are twisting facts again he was not on"the inside of a van at the corner of a junction" he was in a seperate lane and done nothing wrong by proceeding.
randomname2005 wrote: » But consider rush hour where there is a queue of slow moving traffic. Are cyclists supposed to slow down and ensure they are not in every driver's blind spot at every junction?
randomname2005 wrote: » I think the more realistic approach is to encourage cyclists to cycle cautiously, being aware that scenarios like this are likely to happen and they need to be ready to react to it like this cyclist did. Maybe cycle with hands on the break levers most of the time in areas like this? Remind novice city cyclists that you can't cycle with your head down looking straight ahead. You have to expect that the pedestrian will step out in front of you, that the driver will turn without looking or indicating, that the parked car door will open.
breezy1985 wrote: » You are twisting facts again he was not on"the inside of a van at the corner of a junction" he was in a seperate lane and done nothing wrong by proceeding.
magicbastarder wrote: » in a situation like that, i'm happy enough to take the lane and insert myself into traffic, but it's not something i suspect a nervous or novice cyclist might be comfortable doing, so i'm hesitant to recommend it. plus, the fact that the cycle lane is now wanded would make that more fraught. however, if a cyclist was to have to sit behind a slow moving van in a junction-heavy area like ranelagh, lest the van driver do something stupid, kinda removes one of the benefits of cycling in that not getting stuck in vehicular traffic is one of the attractions of it. anyway, the van driver was an idiot, he'd clearly passed several cyclists and was not moving nearly fast enough to clear them before swinging left. and it's not as if AJR was melting along at 40km/h.
kenmm wrote: » "He was on the nearside side of a van, in a cycle lane as both the bike and the van were approaching a junction" - does that description fit better? - we are really splitting hairs now. I didn't say approaching every junction. It's Ranelagh and one of the busiest sections of road in Dublin city. Context is key and forms part of good observational skills. Also, the van was slowing for something, so I would be a little more aware in this situation - it was clear as day something was about to happen and the poster even stated he "saw this coming". We are going to have to agree to disagree. There is no victim blaming, it was a gentle, polite suggestion to maybe hang back a little in this specific incident. No offense intended, I have no clue why this is causing such a stir. The cyclist didn't do anything wrong as in illegal, but a little more awareness in these situations is always helpful.
AndrewJRenko wrote: » There was no lack of awareness or observation. I knew exactly where the van was, and I was aware there was a chance he would try to left hook me. I was also away that I would be coming up by his window before he turned, so there was a good chance he would see me there.
AndrewJRenko wrote: » I counted 14 junctions on that stretch of Ranelagh today, from the canal bridge to the top of Sandford Road. Am I supposed to hang back at each of the 14 junctions, just in case a driver decides to turn on a whim, without observation or looking at mirrors? And what about every driveway or business entrance, probably about 100 of them on that stretch - am I supposed to hang back at each of those also? I'm not going to spend my life tugging my forelock and asking permission from the drivers of Dublin to continue my journey if that's OK with all of them thanks very much.
kenmm wrote: » That to me sounds worse, that you saw an avoidable conflict and decided to force it. There are no more words for this. This is taking it to extremes. Good luck and I genuinely hope you are not going to be one of the cyclists I will read about that was caught out by poor road positioning (In my opinion, obviously. I respect that you disagree).
breezy1985 wrote: » You mean caught out by a driver turning without checking or indicating but again you choose to blame the cyclist
kenmm wrote: » By the cyclists own admission, that didn't happen. No one was caught out, it was foreseen. I am not "blaming" anyone, Its not an us Vs them situation. I only (originally) asked if it was wise to be in the blind spot at an obviously bad time. I don't know why this has caused so much resentment?
I was aware there was a chance he would try to left hook me.
breezy1985 wrote: » Im not saying us v them Im saying its the vans fault but you keep wording it to blame the cyclist. Only 2 things should happen in this situation the driver should check his mirror and indicate no one else done wrong so stop saying the cyclist needs to change his behaviour. No car driver would be asked to do what you are telling this cyclist to do
blackwhite wrote: » I commute a lot of the same roads at that poster, and have nowhere near the level of near misses, aggressive encounters with drivers or other such incidents. I've learned to cycle assertively and, when needed, will make myself heard by drivers (or other road users), but I don't feel the need go seeking out a row every day either.
kenmm wrote: » By the cyclists own admission, that didn't happen. No one was caught out, it was foreseen. It can't be both a case of being fully observant AND being caught out completely unaware. I am not "blaming" anyone, Its not an us Vs them situation. I only (originally) asked if it was wise to be in the blind spot at an obviously bad time (hesitant driver, busy road, etc). I don't know why this has caused so much resentment? EDIT II: Remember - I originally posed the question on the back of a new person being worried at the amount of clips that show how dangerous cycling can be. One way to increase safety is by being aware of such situations. AJR was aware of this situation and proceeded anyway. A novice may not have been so aware and therefore it's wise to point out that proceeding blindly (AJR Didn't proceed blindly) isn't the only option and sometimes holding back in order to merge (as a merging would have to have happened due to the illegally parked car up ahead, another point no one seemed to care about - i.e. if the van was going to continue as would be implied by the lack of indication, a merge would happen. If it was me at that point, I would have merged behind the van, passed the junction and parked car and then sprinted off into the sunset, no issues all happy). Again - this whole incident was a non-event, but looks worse. The guy made a mistake and instantly put his hand up. The consequences could have been much worse, but they could have passed with less of an incident as well.
magicbastarder wrote: » not sure i'd agree with that assessment? i disagree with some of the conclusions made by other posters (yourself included - what drew me in was the 'don't gesture at motorists' comment), but that doesn't mean there's not a debate to be had.
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